Man Utd thread

[Liam]

First topic message reminder :

There are a few Utd fans like myself on the board but like the LFC one set up, everyone are welcome to discuss Utd's results and news etc..

Playing Barca tomorrow night, only a pre-season game but would like to see Kagwa given a run out tomorrow night see what he's got against the best.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

You lost at Norwich because you had no ball winner in midfield. We also beat Arsenal at home, but in that game they dominated possession for large spells and really we got an early goal and shut up shop. Where as in the game against you we were able to knock the ball around and really get through your midfield quite easily. You didn't have a ball winner in there, and you really need one

A ball winner is no good if he can't do anything with once he's got it though...

All he has to do is win the ball and pass it 5 yards to Scholes/Carrick/Rooney and then you are away...

[compelling and rich]

Would still rather a box to box combative midfielder who's comfortable on the ball and can play football whereas today's DM's are just tackle monkies that break up the play and offer little else.

Basically I want Roy Keane. Or Viera.

not asking for much then? how many current world players fit that bill? yaya toure is about it!

[Ent]

i agree that keane wasnt a out and out sitter, we were very lucky to have a player who could do it all. like viera did for arsenal. but even still he did the majority of the defensive work in our midfield for that team which would suggest that he was our defensive mid

No all our midfielders attacked and defended.

Just because keane could tackle and couldn't run anymore in his last couple of years doesn't make him a defensive midfielder, he was an all round midfield general who could do everything.

Hargreaves could tackle, but he could also pass, made strong runs forward etc I mean he played on the right wing in the CL final. He wasn't a dm at any stage in his career.

We couldn't get the ball from Norwich because our midfield couldn't run, a dedicated ball winner to make up for the deficiencies of others is a stupid sacrifice to make - also one man cannot defend against everyone, it is a team game.

Sorry it is a real bug bear of mine this assertion that you need a dm, you don't. Being able to tackle doesn't make a player a defensive midfielder, it makes him a footballer.

Like I said I'd rather come second than play a dedicated holding midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and contributes nothing to the all round game.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I think what we mean is someone to get there foot stuck in and not allow your midfield to get overrun by teams such as Norwich. There are plenty of so called ball winners out there who can spray it about pretty well, hell we have Tettey at Norwich who ain't too shabby at it

[Ent]

You lost at Norwich because you had no ball winner in midfield. We also beat Arsenal at home, but in that game they dominated possession for large spells and really we got an early goal and shut up shop. Where as in the game against you we were able to knock the ball around and really get through your midfield quite easily. You didn't have a ball winner in there, and you really need one

A ball winner is no good if he can't do anything with once he's got it though...

All he has to do is win the ball and pass it 5 yards to Scholes/Carrick/Rooney and then you are away...

That wouldn't have helped against Norwich, you defend as a team, one player cannot cover the whole pitch and continualy win the ball for others.

It is taking the urine to suggest we need a DM to beat bottom half sides based on isolated results.

[GSC]

You lost at Norwich because you had no ball winner in midfield. We also beat Arsenal at home, but in that game they dominated possession for large spells and really we got an early goal and shut up shop. Where as in the game against you we were able to knock the ball around and really get through your midfield quite easily. You didn't have a ball winner in there, and you really need one

A ball winner is no good if he can't do anything with once he's got it though...

All he has to do is win the ball and pass it 5 yards to Scholes/Carrick/Rooney and then you are away...

Yeah, then Carrick turns and plays it back to him.

[compelling and rich]

i agree that keane wasnt a out and out sitter, we were very lucky to have a player who could do it all. like viera did for arsenal. but even still he did the majority of the defensive work in our midfield for that team which would suggest that he was our defensive mid

No all our midfielders attacked and defended.

Just because keane could tackle and couldn't run anymore in his last couple of years doesn't make him a defensive midfielder, he was an all round midfield general who could do everything.

Hargreaves could tackle, but he could also pass, made strong runs forward etc I mean he played on the right wing in the CL final. He wasn't a dm at any stage in his career.

We couldn't get the ball from Norwich because our midfield couldn't run, a dedicated ball winner to make up for the deficiencies of others is a stupid sacrifice to make - also one man cannot defend against everyone, it is a team game.

Sorry it is a real bug bear of mine this assertion that you need a dm, you don't. Being able to tackle doesn't make a player a defensive midfielder, it makes him a footballer.

Like I said I'd rather come second than play a dedicated holding midfielder who just sits in front of the back four and contributes nothing to the all round game.

im sorry just because he played right wing in the final doesnt mean he's not a dm. he played that role for us all season! he sat deep broke up attacks all season long. if he was never played that role at any point in his career then please explain what he did all the time for svens england? and if he were something more than a dm you would expect more than 13 goals in his whole career in all competitions!!! michael carrick has double that!!

i can equally throw your arguement back and say that just because a midfielder can pass and shoot doesnt mean he's not a dm. yes in a ideal world midfielders can do it all but as i explained above outside of the barca team there are very little of them going around. a dm isnt defined by a player who can tackle, its a players who can disrupt oppenents attacks, stopping them from playing and cut out there time on the ball, a player who usually reads the game very well. giving the more attcking flair player the ball. which is a very important role, other than a fit and firing flecther something we havent got and have sorely missed

[Ent]

Fletcher isn't a dm either, a dm is a clogger who sits in front of the back four and doesn't move. Being able to defend does not make you a dm.

Hargreaves only managed 23 starts that season, I don't see the assertion that he was a dm at all- it's not all about scoring.

It is this breeding of talentless cloggers that enables the work shy attacking/creative midfielder to exist - its pathetic.

[matth7]

Jonny Evans signs new deal which runs until 2016.

[Liam]

Good news, I think he's made great strides in making his time in the 1st team with Vidic/Smalling/Jones out injured. Becoming more and more accomplished every game. He's going to be a very good cb for utd imo.

[neilthom7]

Good news, I think he's made great strides in making his time in the 1st team with Vidic/Smalling/Jones out injured. Becoming more and more accomplished every game. He's going to be a very good cb for utd imo.

Agreed

[The Special Juan]

No Rooney today at all. He must have been carrying an injury v Swansea because he was so far off the pace it was frightening (and if he wasn't carrying an injury before the match, he certainly was after!!)

[Ent]

Disaster waiting to happen scholes and giggs starting together...

[The Special Juan]

Wanted: A formerly world class defence. If found, please return to Old Trafford. Sincerely, SAF.

[Ent]

Not the defended fault, goal keeping error and wrong decision.

Scholes and giggs = exposed defence they can't play together anymore!

[The Special Juan]

Damn injuries. Where's Shinji? Where's.... *gulp* Nani?

[Ent]

Shinji is cack anyway.

Leaving out young, Rooney, welbeck was a stupid decision, we've got cleverly on the bench as an attacking player- wouldn't one if the above have been handy in our current situation even if they are partially fit.

[The Special Juan]

Rooney's injured and Welbeck's ill or something; no idea where Young is. Shinji is wonderful.

Not watching the game but apparently the goal should have stood anyway so I'm not complaining.

[Ent]

Yeah if you don't know the rules it would have stood, Evans was tussling with him and tackled him/tried to intercept the ball - was definitely off side.

[Ent]

Well that was a penalty, getting comedic now.

[The Special Juan]

Patrice!!!!!!!!!!!! Where have his goals come from??

[Ent]

Not as comedic as our defending - conceding a goal from a throw in is unacceptable.

[Ent]

Crazy crazy game

[The Special Juan]

ROBIN!!!!!!!!!

[Ent]

Well another penalty there.

[Ent]

Ok free kick, was outside the box.

[The Special Juan]

CHICHARITOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ent]

Incredible game, fantastic we came back again - a kotr to other teams this is what you do when you've a terrible referee, just get it done instead of losing then complaining about him!

Negatives, defending brutal especially for 3rd goal and look at the transformation when scholes came off and someone who could run came on!

[Lumbering_Jack]

Was at the game and must say it really was end to end, although ultimately disappointing with it ending in defeat.

Not sure why Man U fans are upset with the OG. Clear goal.

Has their ever been a worse set of home fans. Along with Fulham and Wigan Man U have the worst home support in the league. It is almost like they haven't quite decided who they should support. Really awful showing for what was a good game to watch.

[Ent]

It was offside, people don't understand the rules.

Crowds always Poopie at this time of year as people are a) hungover b) don't go or flog their tickets to randomers for christmas presents.

Place is like a morgue on New Years usually.

[Lumbering_Jack]

You don't understand the rule.
And as for the crowd. 4th time ice graced ot with my presence and each time the atmosphere has been dreadful. Barely a murmur. It is almost forgivable for a little clubs like Wigan but for 75k to just sit in silence is awful.

[TopHat24/7]

Was at the game and must say it really was end to end, although ultimately disappointing with it ending in defeat.

Not sure why Man U fans are upset with the OG. Clear goal.

Has their ever been a worse set of home fans. Along with Fulham and Wigan Man U have the worst home support in the league. It is almost like they haven't quite decided who they should support. Really awful showing for what was a good game to watch.

Agree with you re the goal, not offside, no interference with play just a simple OG. Ironically if Evs had just left it and let Cisse stick it in the net then it would have been ruled offside correctly.

Re the fans, United have been getting worse and worse since the Glazers' arrival as a lot of fans deserted the club (my two mates gave up their season tickets about a yr into the Glazers' tenure) and a lot have been priced out by the Glazers' ticketing policies. Still has its moments though, and is nowhere near as bad as the Highbury Library! Ironically we often sound louder away (completely out-chanted Chelsea earlier this season for example) as our hardcore fans aren't watered down by the prawn sandwich bragade.

[Lumbering_Jack]

Agree tophat, your away following is good.

Totally forgot about arsenal. Truly a dreadful set if fans.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

To be fair when I went to The Emirates at the end of last season (was there last home game of the season) they weren't too bad. But that might have been because it was an entertaining absorbing game.

The top clubs always seem to have louder away followings than home followings

[Corporalhumblebucket]

Deleted - wrong thread

[Ent]

You don't understand the rule.
And as for the crowd. 4th time ice graced ot with my presence and each time the atmosphere has been dreadful. Barely a murmur. It is almost forgivable for a little clubs like Wigan but for 75k to just sit in silence is awful.

Dear dear if you effect other players actions you effect play, it's simple- had Evans taken a swinger at it and put it in there would be no issue but the fact is he is tussling with and marking an offside player - it's offside, simple.

As for the crowd everyone has off days, Newcastle were brilliant in the 5-3 (03 I think?) not so good lately.

Think everyone is getting worse tbh, ots going down hill, arsenal Chelsea and spurs were all poor last year IMO.

[Lumbering_Jack]

Funny that every pundit I've seen disagreed with your view of the goal. Sky sports had the FIFA laws on offsides this morning and Cisse, by their rules, was not offside.

[TopHat24/7]

You don't understand the rule.
And as for the crowd. 4th time ice graced ot with my presence and each time the atmosphere has been dreadful. Barely a murmur. It is almost forgivable for a little clubs like Wigan but for 75k to just sit in silence is awful.

Dear dear if you effect other players actions you effect play, it's simple- had Evans taken a swinger at it and put it in there would be no issue but the fact is he is tussling with and marking an offside player - it's offside, simple.

His effect on Evs was negligible, if anything Evs was pulling at him to recover from his bad positioning. Evs mistake. No offside. Simple.

Which, as LJ alludes to, is probably why every pundit but you and Fergie agrees.

[Ent]

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position

Straight from fifas laws of the game 2012.

Cisse was interfering with an opponent and with play - Evans wouldn't have kicked it had he not been there.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

The moment Simpson kicks the ball Cisse is in an offside position, but he is not interfering with an opponent, Evans is actually pushing/grabbing him and has got himself in a tangle. He is also not interfering with the GK.

If Evans just leaves the ball Cisse would be offside but he isn't active in the play

[User 774433]

Ent is absolutely correct.

If Cisse wasn't in that position no way would Evans have put it in his own net, he would have just stepped forward and controlled the ball.
But he couldn't do that as he had to stay on Cisse- and hence if not for Cisse's presence it wouldn't have been a goal.

Ridiculous decision by the referee.

[TopHat24/7]

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee, involved in active play by:
• interfering with play or
• interfering with an opponent or
• gaining an advantage by being in that position

Straight from fifas laws of the game 2012.

Cisse was interfering with an opponent and with play - Evans wouldn't have kicked it had he not been there.

That's a ridiculous extension of logical interpretation - talk about bending to suit. His mere presence was interfering with Evs because if he'd been playing with his gonads on the centre spot Evs would not have been there trying to clear an incoming cross.....?! Give me strength

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Every single game you'll get a striker who will stand behind the defender and just stand there and not move, not interefering with play and the defender will head the ball away because of his "presence". Is that offside?

[User 774433]

His mere presence was interfering with Evs because if he'd been playing with his gonads on the centre spot Evs would not have been there trying to clear an incoming cross.....?!

Yes that's damn right.
His 'mere' presence meant Evans had to mark him and was unable to get into an ideal defensive position.

[TopHat24/7]

Christ almighty......someone forgot to lock the door at the nut-house today...

[Ent]

If he's not interfering with play in the 6 yard box he shouldn't be on the pitch.

He's in a tussle with Evans for the ball then Evans tries to clear it so he doesn't score - it's offside.

[User 774433]

Christ almighty......someone forgot to lock the door at the nut-house today...

So that's how you escaped.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If he's not interfering with play in the 6 yard box he shouldn't be on the pitch.

He's in a tussle with Evans for the ball then Evans tries to clear it so he doesn't score - it's offside.

He isn't tussling with Evans! Evans is holding/pushing him, Cisse is doing bugger all (poor forward play actually lol)

[User 774433]

If Cisse is not in that position:
Evans moves over and clears the ball, no own goal.

With Cisse there:
Evans has to mark Cisse, and when the ball comes out can only stretch is leg to get the ball. He does that, and it's an own goal. If Cisse's not there Evans wouldn't be in that position.

It's simple really, it's offside.
Cisse's interference means Evans scores an own goal, he hasn't touched it but still interfered in play.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

If Cisse is not in that position:
Evans moves over and clears the ball, no own goal.

With Cisse there:
Evans has to mark Cisse, and when the ball comes out can only stretch is leg to get the ball. He does that, and it's an own goal. If Cisse's not there Evans wouldn't be in that position.

It's simple really, it's offside.
Cisse's interference means Evans scores an own goal, he hasn't touched it but still interfered in play.

Did Evans not move and score an own goal?

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