Man Utd thread

by Liam Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:10 pm

First topic message reminder :

There are a few Utd fans like myself on the board but like the LFC one set up, everyone are welcome to discuss Utd's results and news etc..

Playing Barca tomorrow night, only a pre-season game but would like to see Kagwa given a run out tomorrow night see what he's got against the best.

by Ent Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:10 am

Don't really care for stats, he takes evertons free kicks and set pieces and puts a lot of crosses in. He's going to create "goal chances".

Think evras defending was better 2nd half of season, whereas Baines has never really been that solid at the back, gets beaten 1 on 1 easily and defending for united is completely different than for Everton.

Can't see Monaco paying that much for evra if we are looking rid.

Plus that's another senior player lost if he goes.

by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:27 am

Sorry mate don't see it. Evra was a liability defensively at times last season. Agree with Olly Baines not being able to defend is a bit of a myth.

"Defending for United is completly different than for Everton" - Yeah surely hes going to get more help at United then Everton and look even better!

More then enough senior players around to lose Evra. Ferdinand, Giggs, Vidic, Carrick all going to play important roles next year.

Reckon it would be easy enough to run PSG off against Monaco and make 12m if all the newspaper rumours are true

by compelling and rich Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:43 am

i think people did get carried away with evras return to form last season. he was better, much better than previous seasons but that was hardly difficult. he's lazy these days, loves getting forward but doesnt like tracking back. reminds me abit of yaya toure in that sense, looks brilliant when going forward but not half as good going back. the only worry with losing evra would be he's a big voice in the dressing room but do think he's lost his hunger and pace that made him one of the best left backs in the world

by Ent Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:47 am

His legs gave gone a bit but he has had a bit of return to form, he will be fitter and better this season.

Baines plays in a very solid unit that is conservative going forward with a very protective winger in front of him- not the case at united (might change under moyes).

He's a decent player but people are getting carried away with 1 good season.

The money touted would make him around the third most expensive fullback ever!

by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:49 am

Hes had more then 1 good season though. Been great for Everton 2-3 years now. Deserved the England left back spot a year ago on form

by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:50 am

Says it all really when most Everton fans would happily lose Fellani to us if it meant Baines staying on

by compelling and rich Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:53 am

baines has been the best left back in the prem for at least the last 3 seasons, coles form hasnt been anywhere near his best for a while. think a fair price is around 15 mil mark anymore and it is debatable whether he's worth it as full backs peak is 30 tops, which is only two years

will be interesting to see what moyes does about left wing, dont rate nani or young. perhaps if we sign thiago he will play a wide playmaker instead like a kagawa. all depends on the rooney situation, as if rooneys staying you got to think he'll be playing. he wont keep match fitness otherwise.

by Ent Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:59 am

He might go 433 and if he gets Baines allow him to provide the width.

Other than that we've zaha, nani, young, Valencia and kagawa as wide players.

Thiago would be a complete waste to sign then play on the left.

Baines has had one season at the level we'd require, I think he's over rated. I'd take him if we could get him for £14 million but likely to be over £20 million which would be a travesty.

I think I'd cry if we signed fellani.

by compelling and rich Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:08 pm

i think people have been harsh on fellani just because recently he's been just a target man where everton just lump it up to him. before that he's played deeper and has shown he can play a bit. remember a game against city where he absolutely ran the show, it was a brilliant performance and not a header in sight.

think id cry if we kept Anderson anywhere near the first team, lets face it fellani is better than any other option in cm other than carrick on recent form

by Ent Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:20 pm

Anderson is gash, fellani is just a big lump who has had one good season.

by Bull Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:31 pm

There both crap though felleani is better.

by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:00 pm

Take it you don't watch much of Everton then Ent if Fellani and Baines have only had 1 good year... Baines best fullback in the league 3 years now. Fellani has been great for Everton since signing. Not interested in him for United if Moses wants to play him off the striker and knock up long balls to get his head on but if hes brought in to play deep and box to box he'd be a great signing for us.

If Fergie hadn't fecked Pogba around we wouldn't be talking about Fellani anyway. Now that was a serious miss

by Ent Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:13 pm

Pogba was the one doing the messing around - specifically his agent as he wanted huge money before breaking into the first team. Left just as he was breaking into the side.

Fellani just isn't that good and he has only had one good season, prior to that he was a handful etc but no one would have seriously linked him to a move from everton to a bigger club.

As for Baines I don't think he's been better than zabaleta for one in the last 3 years. He has played his role in a very defensive side and won plaudits for his link work with pienaar this year.

Everton are decent and did well with what they have but they aren't exactly the model for teams with aspirations of winning the cl to follow.

by compelling and rich Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:19 pm

zabaleta has only become first choice this season, before that mancini often rotated him with richards. hardly best full back in the league if he couldnt even keep cement his place in his own team

im not too fussed about pogba, from what ive read his attitude stunk. dont want those players at our club. even city have learnt that lesson finally getting rid of tevez and balotelli

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:10 am

Moyes first day today, brought 3 Everton coaches with him.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:02 am

Ent wrote:Pogba was the one doing the messing around - specifically his agent as he wanted huge money before breaking into the first team. Left just as he was breaking into the side.

Fellani just isn't that good and he has only had one good season, prior to that he was a handful etc but no one would have seriously linked him to a move from everton to a bigger club.

As for Baines I don't think he's been better than zabaleta for one in the last 3 years. He has played his role in a very defensive side and won plaudits for his link work with pienaar this year.

Everton are decent and did well with what they have but they aren't exactly the model for teams with aspirations of winning the cl to follow.

What are you talking about? Looking at Premier League stats alone, in the last three seasons Zabaletta has 34 clean sheets, 5 goals and 5 assists. Baines has 29 clean sheets, 14 goals and 20 assists.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 am

MIG wrote:
Ent wrote:Pogba was the one doing the messing around - specifically his agent as he wanted huge money before breaking into the first team. Left just as he was breaking into the side.

Fellani just isn't that good and he has only had one good season, prior to that he was a handful etc but no one would have seriously linked him to a move from everton to a bigger club.

As for Baines I don't think he's been better than zabaleta for one in the last 3 years. He has played his role in a very defensive side and won plaudits for his link work with pienaar this year.

Everton are decent and did well with what they have but they aren't exactly the model for teams with aspirations of winning the cl to follow.

What are you talking about? Looking at Premier League stats alone, in the last three seasons Zabaletta has 34 clean sheets, 5 goals and 5 assists. Baines has 29 clean sheets, 14 goals and 20 assists.

Not all about stats though is it.

Zabaleta has captained a pl winning side...

Baines won't take as many set pieces for us etc etc

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:12 am

Its not all about stats no, but when you are talking about Baines then stats are important because he creates chances, more than most full backs in the game. He is a wing back more than a full back. Evra has captained a PL winning side, Baines is still better though isn't he?

Who would take the set pieces over Baines at United? I don't recall United having any decent set piece takers since Ronaldo left.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:17 am

MIG wrote:Its not all about stats no, but when you are talking about Baines then stats are important because he creates chances, more than most full backs in the game. He is a wing back more than a full back. Evra has captained a PL winning side, Baines is still better though isn't he?

Who would take the set pieces over Baines at United? I don't recall United having any decent set piece takers since Ronaldo left.

He is a large focus of Everton's attacks, takes the majority of long crossing freekicks, all the close freekicks and the majority of corners. Won't get any of that for United. RVP could well continue to take a lot of the freekicks.

Don't value him at what he will cost.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:28 am

Surely it would be worthwhile having someone that is as good if not better at taking set pieces than van Persie then allowing van Persie, who is easily United's best finisher to be in the positions to be on the end of those set pieces?

I value him at more than he will cost.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:16 pm

MIG wrote:Surely it would be worthwhile having someone that is as good if not better at taking set pieces than van Persie then allowing van Persie, who is easily United's best finisher to be in the positions to be on the end of those set pieces?

I value him at more than he will cost.

Bit foolish that as you are valuing him at possibly a record value for a fullback then.

RVP can stay forward, Baines would have to get back and we would potentially have to leave a covering player for him.

Anyway splitting hairs, I'd like him to sign for what we are reported to have offered but I don't believe it is worth the hassle or money if we are heading towards £20million.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:42 pm

In my opinion he is no ordinary full back because of the consistent amount of goals scored, goals assisted and goal scoring opportunities created. He is also wonderful to watch in full flight down the wing. But hey, I'm foolish for disagreeing with you so ill make sure I agree with you from now on.
I think £18m would be fair all round.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:25 pm

MIG wrote:In my opinion he is no ordinary full back because of the consistent amount of goals scored, goals assisted and goal scoring opportunities created. He is also wonderful to watch in full flight down the wing. But hey, I'm foolish for disagreeing with you so ill make sure I agree with you from now on.
I think £18m would be fair all round.

That seems to be the growing rate - you said you value him at more, which is foolish as it's up there with the most costly fullbacks ever.

I'm old fashioned, a defender should defend first and foremost- the attacking is secondary and he isn't solid enough at the back for that amount. He gets beat one on one far too easily for a united player who don't defend their fullbacks that well due to play style.

Assists and goalscoring will drop when he is less of a focus and takes less set pieces.

Don't be swayed by one top season, we shouldn't pay more than £14million even in today's market -any more and may as well stick with Evra who has more experience and is more of a dressing room leader and at his worst is as good a defender - no where near as good an attacker.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:35 pm

Why do you keep saying one top season. Is that cause its the only one you've noticed? He's been terrific for at least 3 or 4 seasons now.
I agree he is not the strongest defender but in my opinion his other attributes make up for that especially when you have two solid centre backs next to him. But he's by no means a terrible defender. If you want someone as good as Baines but better defensively then fine maybe he isn't good enough for United. Good luck finding someone that fits that bill though. Most of the best left backs in the world aren't the strongest defensively. Times have moved on.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:45 pm

He has had one good season at the level required for a united player, simple really.

Things haven't changed really, the old prinicples still lead to success - look at Bayern etc.

He isn't that good going forward to make up for the defensive deficincies when you consider he will have more one on one (less overall) defending to do at united and the attack will be less focused at him and he will take less set pieces. In short everything he is good at will be reduced and he will be exposed to everything he is bad at.

Not worth what will likely be the 3rd biggest fee ever paid for a fullback.

But you know he slings in crosses in a defensive side so lets sign him up and replace a guy who has played every game for 7 years...

by The Special Juan Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:46 pm

Don't you think Evra's past it?

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:57 pm

I think he has one more good year in him - he had a good last 6 months and has had a rest this summer.

Has had a serious amount of miles in his legs since he became first choice and I personally think he has enough left to make Everton sweat it out and take a fair fee for Baines.

Everton are looking for what would be the 3rd biggest fee for a fullback ever - 2nd ever if Madrid hadn't spent a retarded amount on Contreau - we can't become that club, we just can't.

Honestly if Everton won't deal for £14m I'd rather not have him and keep Evra for 2 years, would be worth proving a point that we won't be held to ransom for, in the end, 2nd choice international players with no elite level experience.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:00 pm

Ent wrote:He has had one good season at the level required for a united player, simple really.

Things haven't changed really, the old prinicples still lead to success - look at Bayern etc.

He isn't that good going forward to make up for the defensive deficincies when you consider he will have more one on one (less overall) defending to do at united and the attack will be less focused at him and he will take less set pieces. In short everything he is good at will be reduced and he will be exposed to everything he is bad at.

Not worth what will likely be the 3rd biggest fee ever paid for a fullback.

But you know he slings in crosses in a defensive side so lets sign him up and replace a guy who has played every game for 7 years...

He was arguably better the season before last so I'm not really sure what you're taking about. And he just slings in crosses? Yeah that's all he does, the more this is going on the more you sound like you don't really know what you're talking about.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:07 pm

MIG wrote:
Ent wrote:He has had one good season at the level required for a united player, simple really.

Things haven't changed really, the old prinicples still lead to success - look at Bayern etc.

He isn't that good going forward to make up for the defensive deficincies when you consider he will have more one on one (less overall) defending to do at united and the attack will be less focused at him and he will take less set pieces. In short everything he is good at will be reduced and he will be exposed to everything he is bad at.

Not worth what will likely be the 3rd biggest fee ever paid for a fullback.

But you know he slings in crosses in a defensive side so lets sign him up and replace a guy who has played every game for 7 years...

He was arguably better the season before last so I'm not really sure what you're taking about. And he just slings in crosses? Yeah that's all he does, the more this is going on the more you sound like you don't really know what you're talking about.

Maybe, buy maybe I'm the one addressing football issues and you are the one making it personal?

What will be will be, I'd be happy with the current figures touted - get close to £20million and I'd want peerless performances for 3 years+ you know what Evra did for £5,5 million before he started to age.

Otherwise we could put that cash into a big big signining e.g. Bale.

Like it or not as united fans we've to think about finances now, whats better value Thiago or a solid PL full back?

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:13 pm

I'm not a United fan.
Also I'm not making it personal I didn't call your mum something. I just think you sound like you've got blinkers on. I've got no problem with different opinions and I agreed with some of yours like Baines defensive abilities etc I just think you are over rating Evra and under rating Baines, apologies if you think I'm making it personal.

Ps you're mum is fat.

by The Special Juan Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:15 pm

Why not both? I have nothing against Patrice but he's been such a liability at the back over the past 2 seasons, especially at the start of last season. I really don't think he's got another season in him as he's slower and is a year older. Baines > Coentrao any day and I genuinely believe he's worth £18m, but no more. I wish Utd had signed Monreal. He was real value.

by Ent Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:22 pm

MIG wrote:I'm not a United fan.
Also I'm not making it personal I didn't call your mum something. I just think you sound like you've got blinkers on. I've got no problem with different opinions and I agreed with some of yours like Baines defensive abilities etc I just think you are over rating Evra and under rating Baines, apologies if you think I'm making it personal.

Ps you're mum is fat.

Saying someone doesn't know what they are on about suggests making it personal to me - rather than discussing Baines level in relation to Uniteds level, transfer fee in relation to biggest paid for fullback, dimished role in a united side, the fact he is a second choice international etc.

At the end of the day I do not want my club to pay £20ish million for Baines, it is up to him wether he wants to follow moyes to a bigger club, higher level and more money or continue to be Evertons best player.

Evra has played nearly every game for 7 years, he is tired - after an 18 month slump he has improved the alst 6 months, no reason to think that at 32 with a rest he cannot show his previous level (which was a level if not more above Baines by the way).

A tv deal that we are the main reason for shouldn't mean we are held to randsom.

Last word - Monreal is garbage.

by MIG Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:33 pm

So saying you don't know what you're talking about is making it personal but saying someone's views are foolish (twice) isn't?
I made my points why I think Baines is good. You want me to address every single point you make and argue against it?
He's second choice internationally to someone widely considered the best left back in the world. I don't understand why he would have a diminished role at United. He's a cracking set piece taker better than what United currently have IMO so would take as many set pieces and I believe he could possibly link up with Kagawa on the left in the same way he does currently with Pienaar. As for transfer fees I can't really argue too much. Prices are through the roof at the moment. Everton will only sell for what they believe is a fair fee for them and united wont pay over what they want to. Fair enough.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:52 am

Really sick of hearing about this Rooney sage, just want a decision made ASAP so we can move in with the summer

Obviously when he plays well he is still a driving force for anything we do and I'd be terrified that if we sold him in England then he'd prove letting him go was a mistake

To your little argument regarding Baines, its all well and good saying we have Evra, whats to say that if Monaco come sniffing and throw money his way he won't follow? We'd have no choice but to look elsewhere because Buttner isn't the answer, as far as I can see there'd be nobody better than Baines

by Bull Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:08 pm

gazzyD wrote:Really sick of hearing about this Rooney sage, just want a decision made ASAP so we can move in with the summer

Obviously when he plays well he is still a driving force for anything we do and I'd be terrified that if we sold him in England then he'd prove letting him go was a mistake

To your little argument regarding Baines, its all well and good saying we have Evra, whats to say that if Monaco come sniffing and throw money his way he won't follow? We'd have no choice but to look elsewhere because Buttner isn't the answer, as far as I can see there'd be nobody better than Baines

Same Gazzy im bored with the saga if he is to leave then sell him, so we can just move on and get players in

if he stays then he stays lol.

by **Hero** Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:38 pm

Evra was wanting to leave this summer as soon as it was announced to the players that Fergie was retiring and before Moyes was announced, he had a big bust up with David Gill on the day Utd went to Chester Races.

by compelling and rich Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:43 pm

if evra wants to go then let him, hasn't performed well enough in recent seasons anyway

on rooney, think moyes big first test is this situation. for me nobodys bigger than the club and he can go for all i care. fergie showed his ruthlessness with players like this in the past and very rarely was proven wrong in doing so. moyes will set a very dangerous precedent if he allows rooney to stay.

by Ent Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:06 am

Phil Neville to be installed as first team coach.

What on earth is going on.

by Bull Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:08 am

Ent would you quit complaining for one second?

wait and see if something bad happens then complain give it a chance first.

by Ent Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:13 am

Bull wrote:Ent would you quit complaining for one second?

wait and see if something bad happens then complain give it a chance first.

Bad things are continually happening.

by Ent Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:10 am

Giggs in as player coach.

Interesting move, probably been in the role unofficially for a while.

Good continuity but he too is inexperienced as a coach.

by Guest Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:38 am

I have no issues with either appointment personally, Giggs has and even Phil Neville once played under the greatest manager and some of the best coaches

Can't wait for tomorrows press conference, and hopefully the Thiago signing will be confirmed

by Ent Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:32 pm

Neville confirmed, only coaching experience England u21s I believe.

On first look he isn't qualified for the job and is replacing coaches of international reputation.

Hopefully he has a lot of potential as a coach, not sure it's a great move personally.

by Ent Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:10 pm

So far Moyes has:

Removed hugely popular and experienced coaches and replaced them with his own crew, some whom have no league coaching experience.

Missed out on Thiago (reportedly).

Made a stupid bid (both in amount and timing) for Fabregas.

Made a stupid bid for Baines.

Alienated Wayne Rooney.

Not signed anyone before pre season starts.

Going well so far...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:19 pm

Honestly dont understand your issues with the coaching staff Ent. He's gotta bring in his own staff and then adding people like Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs as well, players in/just retired from the game is hardly a bad move

by Bull Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:23 pm

Same here, its normal for him to bring in people he knows and wants to work with

by Duty281 Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:25 pm

Ent wrote:So far Moyes has:

Removed hugely popular and experienced coaches and replaced them with his own crew, some whom have no league coaching experience.

Missed out on Thiago (reportedly).

Made a stupid bid (both in amount and timing) for Fabregas.

Made a stupid bid for Baines.

Alienated Wayne Rooney.

Not signed anyone before pre season starts.

Going well so far...

Doesn't every manager do that?

by Ent Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:34 pm

Granted one or two people but the coaching staff have been gutted - not every manager takes over the dynasty of Manchester United.

That issue aside there are other major issues.

God I hope the grand plan is unveiled soon as if we go into the new season in our current guise it's going to be a struggle.

by **Crimey** Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:20 pm

United will be there or thereabouts, I don't think Chelsea or City have made massive improvements this year, they've both made one or two decent signings which I expect United to have done by the end of the window as well.

by Ent Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:45 pm

I think we are significantly weaker without Ferguson.

Chelsea will improve under Mourinho. City couldn't be much worse than they were under Mancini.

Seeing us in 3rd if things go the way they are looking i.e. Rooney being forced out and no decent (never mind top) signings.

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