Isle of Muck hailed as rugby world champions...

First topic message reminder :

Stephen Jones claim yesterday that the Isle of Muck are rugby world champions based on per-capita basis. But he provide no clear working of his methodology to arrive at this conclusion.


http://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/olympics/7437138/Stephen-Jones-is-an-Olympic-Kiwi-baiting-champ

Can anybody suggest how is working might have been carried out? or was it just a clumsy two-pronged attack on NZ that would have been a weak WUM even by 606 standards?

Bad news for ENG and WAL however if this were true, because they would slipping down and out of the RWC seeded spots!

Sugar and spikes
I know what your saying, How ever it makes me so angry that he has open license to be hurtful and hateful every opportunity that he can lay his hands on and New Zealanders (all New Zealanders as a whole ) are expected to just put up with it, and not have the right to voice anything in reply...I hope we beat wales by so much next time the Abs play them that they will never want to play us again.

To be fair Stephen Jones now so I believe lives in England. So it's clear what he actually thinks about Wales...

Basing your opinion of Wales on Stephen Jones is like basing your opinion of NZ on Chris Rattue. If we did that, you might believe all NZ fans think Wales are the village idiots of rugby with a self inflated opinion that inevitably gets crushed in the face of any real challenge on any world stage, for instance a RWC, or tour of Australia.

Ive cant say Ive ever had the opportunity to observe them win.

AWOP

If my memory serves me right when Ratts used the Village idiots line, he was talking about the performance of the Welsh forwards in one test match he wasnt refering to everybody in Wales.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
AWOP

If my memory serves me right when Ratts used the Village idiots line, he was talking about the performance of the Welsh forwards in one test match he wasnt refering to everybody in Wales.

Your memory does not serve you:

under:

"Chris Rattue: Sorry, but Wales are rubbish" he wrote:

Everywhere, people are biting their nails in anticipation of the All Blacks' clash against ... snorrrrrrrrrrr ... Wales. The last time I was this excited about a rugby occasion was when I spied a touring Venezuelan team eating hamburgers in Onehunga. It's pointless at this point going on about the great history of All Black and Welsh rugby because there isn't one.

Let's face it. Wales are rubbish. They are the village idiots of rugby union. They have fans who live for the game, administrators who've killed it and players who lie down for the cause.


Wales had a brilliant team of never-to-be-forgotten players 30 years ago. Since then, they've totally stuffed it up and they'll stuff it up again this weekend.

To be fair, he was right about the result. But fans, administrators and players seems to be just about everyone with any vested interesting in rugby in all of wales...

Stephen Jones (Journalist) is a complete door-handle and I'd hate to see him responsible for any bad-feeling between New Zealanders and us Welsh.

I have some great Kiwi friends and also had a fantastic time at the RWC where everyone was so hospitable.

Please don't let this twonk win

I don't really understand the logic that because he is Welsh he must reflect the opinions of all Welsh people.
Sounds like just an excuse to air your own feelings about Wales.

Well I feel stupid... all this time I thought Stephen Jones the journalist was also Stephen Jones the player. It's only after seeing his picture in the link that I realise my mistake! I always wondered how such a good player in his day could have such crap insight when putting pen to paper

He's obviously a troll, one of those people so lacking in objectivity and with such a huge chip on his shoulder you wonder who the hell offered him his job, like with Austin Healey and Piers Morgan.

Aucklandlaurie, I don't know you but have always enjoyed reading your posts. However, I think you've got it wrong here blasting the Welsh people for the rantings of a journalist. As pointed out we all have our idiot journalists, and Chris Rattue is your version. Stephen Jones does not even work for a welsh based newspaper; he writes for the times in London, not that that excuses him one iota. But his readership is mainly English and he rarely writes about Welsh affairs as that's not his remit. Therefore, he's not exactly our nominated spokesman.

But seriously, can you not differentiate between an individual view and a national view? Welsh people have nothing but respect for New Zealanders on the whole, even if we rarely 'feel the love' in return. But, I'll be the bigger man and, rather than wish you ill like you have done for the whole welsh nation, I wish you and your teams all the best for the coming season. Go Blacks.

McKay
You underestimate me, I dont need an excuse to air any feelings I may have for Wales.

Griff
I appreciate your post, I see Chris Rattue as quite different to Stephen Jones, Chris Rattue doesnt have an agenda to be hateful to wales every time Wales makes it into the news,His " Village Idiot " remark was many years ago, however there appear to be some that think that that entitles Stephen Jones to be hateful to New Zealand, every oppportunity he can manufacture.

As a side note, during the 2005 Lions tour, I was in the Shakespeare hotel, Albert Street, Auckland, with a mate of mine who pointed out to me Stephen Jones, In a corner drinking with one or two others.
Other British journos were drinking with New Zealand journos and every one was having a good time, My mate works across the road from that particular pub, I call him Ratts.

So you're mates with Rattue, good for you. You're not likely to be very objective about him in relation to this debate then. Understandable. I expect even Jones has some mates (not many probably!). But it still doesn't mean that Stephen Jones the journalist represents the views of the whole of Wales. Why would it? It would be very sad if I was to hate the whole of NZ because Auklandlaurie made some less than friendly remarks about Wales, wouldn't it?

Griff
coupla things: I didnt know it was a debate about Chris Rattue, Its about about a welshman being able to repetatively abuse all New Zealanders, from a rugby premise, however if a New Zealander has the temerity to make a remark about Welsh people then all we hear about is the bad Kiwi.

Please tell me how I am the offender here. I believe I'm applying a bit of balance and people dont like it.

I dont think jones is the spokesman of wales. I think he's a knob, that's it. One problem I have though, is that he's a so-called award winning respected journalist, and has an audience of millions (times). So when he spreads mis-truths about nz, there'll be those that don't know anything about our country so assume what he's writing is fact. Like I said above, I don't think jones represents wales, but whenever we see his name in nz it has 'Welshman' written in front of it. Our media lets us know full well, that this joker is welsh. He judges our country, we judge his country. Childish? Perhaps. But if you're a high flying sports media person going around slagging off countries he knows nothing about, you have to expect a backlash. Sorry, but Stephen Jones is single handedly destroying relations between us. I don't know enough Welshman or other welsh journalists to think otherwise.

aucklandlaurie wrote: If Stephen Jones can give himself the authority to abuse all New Zealanders inclusively, Then New Zealanders in turn have evry right to regard him as reflecting the atitude of all Welsh people towards New Zealanders.

I cant say Ive seen any great groundswell of Welsh people distancing them selves from Jones's hurtful comments either.

I have checked the olympic medal table, and there proudly stands New Zealand in 19th place (with two medals to be yet awarded) and I have been all the way down past 70 and I cant find Wales.

Wales hasnt beaten New Zealand in rugby for 60 years, and the poor sported spiteful atitude of the Welsh towards New Zealand, will do nothing but give New Zealand every motivation to beat them for another 60.

What are you on about here? Everyone I know loves new Zealand and new Zealand rugby. When you say 'the welsh' you tar us all with the same brush. I know of no one who has a poor sported attitude towards new Zealand. Stephen Jones does it would seem, but I don't know him.

Your top line in that post is really worrying. "If Stephen Jones can give himself the authority to abuse all New Zealanders inclusively, Then New Zealanders in turn have evry right to regard him as reflecting the atitude of all Welsh people towards New Zealanders." Honestly, it's frightening that you can't distinguish between an individual and national view. The guy has been in London over 20 years so probably doesn't even consider himself welsh anymore anyway (again, not that that excuses his comments). You can't then take his comments and pass them off as a whole nation's comments. If the NZ prime minister made disparaging remarks about Wales would it be right to go up to the average kiwi in the street and have a go at them for holding that view? Of course not. It would be ridiculous. So why so with a journalist and New Zealand?

It sounds a bit like you have double standards. You can see no harm in Chris Rattue's comments, but can with Stephen Jones'? They're essentially the same: derogatory comments about a nations sporting performance from the relative safety of the other side of the world, typed up and sent in to their pay masters who are happy to have journalists who create a bit of controversy. Can you not see that they are the same? If not then you're a bit one eyed.

griff
Over the years There have been many issues that Chris Rattue and I havent agreed upon, And I doubt if youve seen any comments made by him on this particular issue.

When you ask what am I "on about here", I am referring to the fact that the only avenue New Zealanders have in the form of redress is for the All Blacks to beat wales so dominantly, that Jones and his comments disappear, further I dont believe I am the only person on the planet that knows that it is the All Blacks continued defeats of Wales that fuels these spiteful outbursts.

Yes, spiteful outburst by 1 man! Not the entire population. Stop taking his word as representing us all. Especially as he doesn't write for a welsh newspaper.

I get the impression that if you saw a Welshman in the street you'd want to punch him in the face for something that Stephen Jones has written, and that's just wrong. We're a nice bunch in general. So too are New Zealanders, so I'm told.

griff

Are you aware that on Wednesday Jones Tweetered Nick Willis, after he finished 9th in the 1500 metres final, to be nothing more than antagonistic about his performance.

I wonder if he tweetered athletes from any other countries other than New Zealand ???

Laurie, no I didn't. And that is terrible. But I have never defended him in this thread. I've called him an idiot. I've only asked that you seperate his words from those of the welsh people. They are not one and the same.

We're getting nowhere here so I'll leave it at this. I just ask that you try realise that 1 rubbish Welshman writing in an English paper does not constitute 3 million people being disrespectful to NZ. I wouldn't dream of basing my view of the whole American population on the words and actions of George Bush; I don't think that all Norwegians are politically motivated serial killers because of the words and actions of that dude recently; and I don't think that New Zealanders are all thieves because of the actions of Quade Cooper! Individuals do individual things that do not represent all of their country. I think that's pretty obvious. I just urge you to understand that for your own sanity, or else you'll soon hate everyone on the planet for actions of a few.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
griff

Are you aware that on Wednesday Jones Tweetered Nick Willis, after he finished 9th in the 1500 metres final, to be nothing more than antagonistic about his performance.

I wonder if he tweetered athletes from any other countries other than New Zealand ???

A badge of honour to be singled out by this idiot who is such a bitter characature of a journalist! The more Stephen Jones rants on NZ the more he makes the AB legend! and points out NZ astonishing sporting prowess on the global stage.

I wonder how he will responding to the Wall Street Journal assertion that Team GB are the top losers at London 2012...a frenzy of tweets to NZ athletes I imagine.

Well it seems Jones has achieved what he set out to do.

Create controversy and get the resultant attention because of it.

The only way to handle something like this is not to feed the ego.

PenfroPete wrote:Please don't let this twonk win

When you say that, do you mean AWOGG, or Auckland Laurie? Both seem a bit keen to create something of nothing.

Wading into this discussion very carefully..........I agree with Biltong(former....bek).

Stupid article not worth reading let alone getting het up about.

The Cook Islands have to be the winner for most rugbytactic nation.
Over 10% of their population are registered players. Despite having a population smaller than the capacity of Welford Road they have beaten England at sevens in 2008 (and nearly did it again recently)

My favourite holiday destination.

I once saw one of their teams severely maul an Australian schoolboy side at the local ground in Avarua. Spine chilling wailing at every big tackle. The crowd went berserk at the end of it but were all smiles at the same time. A must see experience.

nganboy wrote:Stupid article not worth reading let alone getting het up about.

Agreed. Stephen Jones' article wasn't much good either.

sugarNspikes wrote:

nganboy wrote:Stupid article not worth reading let alone getting het up about.

Agreed. Stephen Jones' article wasn't much good either.

Ha! Nice one Cyril.

Risca Rev wrote:

PenfroPete wrote:Please don't let this twonk win

When you say that, do you mean AWOGG, or Auckland Laurie? Both seem a bit keen to create something of nothing.

If you bothered to read all of Penfro Pete's post you would find that he was talking about Stephen Jones, and not AWOP or myself. Just because you appear to enjoy seeing me getting angry about venomous abuse being continually being hurled at New Zealand, The All Blacks and New Zealanders shows that perhaps there are more Welsh people who enjoy Stephen Jones ' hatred of us than you let on.

Stephen Jones is a strange animal. When he talks about New Zealand I always get the feeling he must have dated a woman who dumped him for a Kiwi and he still hasn't gotten over it. Or maybe when covering a tour in NZ he fell in love with a sheep who dumped him. Or something like that. The broken record is tedious. And if it fans any flames between Rugby countries, then it is sad.

But when he discusses Rugby matches, he is usually pretty much on target.

anotherworldofpain wrote: I would expect NZ to do better at sailing and canoeing to be honest because a lot of people on the water there on the weekend. I think it more about priorities than population.
.

My theory about our medals is this. Its not the water. Its the sitting down.
Anyone who doesn't play for the All Blacks 'sits down' in stadiums, pubs, clubs all around the world to watch them. We are experts at it. In 1984 we won 8 gold medals.
All 8... sitting down. In boats, on horses etc.

Three years later that vast experience in sitting down helped win the first world cup in 87.

Last year, we gained so much more sitting down with the 2011 world cup, all but one of this years medals were again won 'sitting down'. This time we added bikes. Big ones and small ones.

You heard that here first!

Secrets out.

Right Stephen Jones writes for the Times, that is owned by Murdoch. He's Australian, it's all their fault! Let's all get together and blindly hurl abuse at them instead!

Actaully let's think this through. A Welshman writing for an English paper owned by an Australian that is now based in the USA. I think it's very clear here who should be blamed... Blydi French innit!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Actaully let's think this through. A Welshman writing for an English paper owned by an Australian that is now based in the USA. I think it's very clear here who should be blamed... Blydi French innit!

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Actaully let's think this through. A Welshman writing for an English paper owned by an Australian that is now based in the USA. I think it's very clear here who should be blamed... Blydi French innit!

N'ah it means that the whole world are against New Zealand

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Actaully let's think this through. A Welshman writing for an English paper owned by an Australian that is now based in the USA. I think it's very clear here who should be blamed... Blydi French innit!

N'ah it means that the whole world are against New Zealand

Except the Olympic drug testers apparently http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19242736

The olympics are over, and yet the New Zealand team is still winning gold.

And this by the team that Stephen Jones last week labelled as "a joke" and "terminal losers".

Well done Valerie

The joke's on Jones, again He must get sick of always being wrong when it comes to us kiwis. Gold and silver in sailing as well, oh dear, the guy is an ignoramous of the highest order. Anyone else think his punching bag sized head looked extra disproportionately large now that he's shaved that slug off, unfortunate.

ebop wrote:Well done Valerie

The joke's on Jones, again He must get sick of always being wrong when it comes to us kiwis. Gold and silver in sailing as well, oh dear, the guy is an ignoramous of the highest order. Anyone else think his punching bag sized head looked extra disproportionately large now that he's shaved that slug off, unfortunate.

N'ah he must be sick of being wrong fullstop.

ebop wrote:Well done Valerie

The joke's on Jones, again He must get sick of always being wrong when it comes to us kiwis. Gold and silver in sailing as well, oh dear, the guy is an ignoramous of the highest order. Anyone else think his punching bag sized head looked extra disproportionately large now that he's shaved that slug off, unfortunate.

Jokes on you lot for making so many derogatory remarks about Australia only to see them soar past you in the medal table.
Anyone not guilty here?

Soar? Hardly.Beside that point is more that it was the Australian media making a big fuss about it. With their "Auseland" medal count and "a great game for oceania". Also it was also said in a friendly joking way. Not like the noxious invective that spewing out of Mr Jones.

Actually what was funny was Channel 9, doing the sports news when New Zealand was 10th and Australia 15th.
They did a medal table, showing 1 to 9, then jumped to 15th.
you gotta love the Aussies. they they know how to do humour.

anotherworldofpain wrote: like the noxious invective that spewing out of Mr Jones.

Twitter response in the article:

Ah, vitriol, the last retort of the man with no grace or intelligent argument

PSW can you translating into English and sense please. I dont understanding your point at all!

anotherworldofpain wrote:PSW can you translating into English and sense please. I dont understanding your point at all!

He's quoting someone who responded to Jones' article on Twitter. A rather apt response too.

Time for AWOP to visit the psychiatrist again.

Yes Jones is an offensive so and so and yes his comments were OTT but we know that was deliberate to illicit exactly these kind of responses.
Its no different to people posting deliberately provocative opinions on a rugby forum just to get a laugh out of peoples responses. Is it AWOP

PSBW

There is one little part of that, that you seem to be ommitting, Jones is writing his bile in a National Newspaper, and a lot of easily persuaded people believe what he writes to be fact.

When you say that its "Just for a laugh" shows that you dont understand how pizzed off us Kiwis are, not only at Jones , but also at the gullible fools that think we are losers and and a joke etc purely beacuse it is anti New Zealand, and they are frustrated as hell because the ABs regularly beat them, and theres not a thing they can do about it on a rugby field.

The ABs wont have any shortage of motivation against some teams that they will be playing at the end of the year.

So what does Chris Rattue do?

There are many differences between Chris Rattue and Stephen Jones, one is that in there lives Chris Rattue has never seen the All Blacks lose to wales, whereas Stephen Jones has never seen Wales defeat the All Blacks.

If you want more just give me a shout.

Right so the argument is that if your team wins you can be obnoxious and offensive, but if you happen to be born Welsh its not on? That excuses you and AWOP then... but can you have a word with Morganwang and co please.

Anyway in this case I dont believe Mr Jones has seen NZ out perform GB in an Olympics for quite some time so does that give him free reign to be a dick about it?

Im not trying to excuse Jones, but dont try and turn this into an excuse to bash an entire nations especially when the same thing goes on in your own media.
If you dont like the trolls, stop feeding them.