Lancaster: We Need Seven

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In an article on the RFU website Lancaster outlines the pre-requisites of an England side to top the world rankings again:

“We need seven world class players in our team and I define world class players as being in the top three in their position in the world.

“That’s the reality, we can coach, we can put systems and structures in place but we need world class players.

“A good measure will be the Lions – it’s the benchmark of four northern hemisphere sides and if you’re not playing well enough to tour with the Lions then you can’t be in the top three in the world. It will be a good barometer [of our progress] as I saw various selections for the Lions pre-South Africa and we didn’t have very many in there.

“Teams are made up of the overall sum of their parts but equally we want some stardust in there too.”

I like the fact that he's identified the Lions as a motivator and not brushed over it in some attempt to assume that the England players just want to do well as a team. He's encouraging individual success as well as team success and I think that's added something to his previous publicly stated philosophy and approach.

The question being of course who are those candidates for the 'seven world class players'. Clearly he's not saying we have them now, but who's there or thereabouts and who's got the potential to be there?

Lions possibles: Ben Youngs, Dan Cole, Manu Tuilagi, Ben Foden, Tom Croft, Toby Flood, Chris Ashton - these are the guys I think are in with a good shout of touring and in some instances starting.

Lions Outsiders: Ben Morgan, Alex Corbisiero, Dylan Hartley, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, Charlie Sharples, Danny Care - This group have a bit more work to do on the Test front, and in some cases need a good run in the AI's and 6N to really stake a claim.

My only issue with some of these players is that whilst they may be Lions tourists they don't necessarily all fit the bill of the 'Sepcial 7' that Lancaster is referring to. Toby Flood for example might become a Lion, but I don't think anyone would put him in the top 3 in the world. The same might be said for Ben Foden, now not even considered to be England's No.1 FB, would he make a wing spot or FB on the world stage?

The point being there aren't many in that position right now, bar perhaps Ben Youngs, Dan Cole and Tom Croft. Who else will or can step up?

Sam always an excuse for Youngs up your sleeve. Would be refreshing for you to acknowledge that Youngs was awful in the rugby world cup and 6 nations mostly even if he had an injury or not.

Youngs can't box kick, doesn't mean his passing needs to be at snail pace too though.

I acknowledged Youngs 2 good games - Argentina and Ireland but that's about 2 in10 (rugby world cup and 6 nations)

Sgt Pooly Yes because of course it's the fly half who passes the ball to the scrum half. Farrell was getting awful service. Youngs needs his safety blanket.

Take the blinkers off guys.

I have admitted many times Farrell has his flaws but he's actually not been as poor as Youngs was in the RWC and 6 nations.

When your fly half stands 20m back and just punts the ball up field it doesn't allow the scrum half to draw the defence or snipe through. It was lose lose for Youngs really.

Youngs box kicking was poor but it was much better than Dickson's & Cares by the last SA game, shows the ability of the lad if you ask me. Playing a game he's alien too but able to adapt.

There's nothing snail like about Youngs service, always has been pretty good.

Adapt after 5 games of awful box kicking. Well done Youngs.

Lancaster has to take some of the criticism. Youngs doesn't suit the kick,chase,territory game IMO. Why pick him?

Youngs adapted too late IMO. You need to play to your strengths. Lancaster should have played Dickson-Farrell more or Youngs-Flood more. Mixing Youngs with any other fly half bar a Leicester one is a recipe for disaster.

That's the whole point of combinations.

Youngs' service was sluggish in the RWC and 6 nations. Admittedly not completely his fault - the backrow has to take some responsibility but it wasn't good.

Oh dear. Is this one of those threads where what people actually mean is "who is their best when they were in their prime and on form and have been on telly a bit recently"?

Rather than "who is currently the better player"?

At present, Youngs is not as unplayable as Genia, not as important to his club or national side as Parra, not as strong as Aaron Smith, not as quick as Matawalu and hasn't ever had a season as consistent as Kerr-Barlow has just had with the Chiefs.

Could he get back to the form where he is comparable with those traits from those players? Of course he could.

Is he there at the moment? No.

Only one comparable there is Genia who's well ahead of the others.

Parra has had a pretty drab season, his kicking is solid but not much else.

Kerr-Barlow is non Int....
Smith has shone in a couple of games against a dire Ireland side.

Youngs finished the season well and was outstanding in SA.

Pooly my boy, we shall have to agree to disagree.

A good few years ago Campese said that a RWC winning side needed to have:
5 World class players (i.e. those who are arguably the best in their position)
5 excellent players
5 very good ones

And that their best performances were where a couple of the very good ones played at an excellent level and a couple of the excellent ones played at WC level.

Lancaster's comment isn't far from this, as he has perhaps a slightly wider definition of world class.

The big question is whether England can find 7 players who are or will develop into world class by Lancaster's definition. At present, you can make a serious case for:
Dan Cole
Ben Youngs
Ben Foden

Close, but not there yet:
Croft
Robshaw
Tuillagi
Ashton

Potential to improve:
Corbisiero
Morgan (if he can get fit - has all the physical attributes to be outstanding but needs to develop an aversion to the pasty shop).

Will never be world class:
Hartley - a solid enough pro, but I think he's reached his level
Flood - A case of 'good enough' and the best we have available at the moment
Parling and Botha

So the foundations are there if some of our younger and less experienced players can continue to develop.

Sam most of the time you are a very level headed poster but the minute we touch on the subject of Youngs you seem to turn in to stuart Barnes!!

Youngs is good in patches but this season has been his worst for a while. Yes he had a good game in SA but the emphasis is on the singular there, and to say it's the best performance by a scrum half in a decade is a joke! Both Harry Ellis and Andy Gomersall had one off brilliant games too. Along with Sean Perry.

Care has had a very steady season which has been his biggest weakness so far so he should be praised for managing that, as to not being able to create stuff i'd argue against that all day. Care is all about creating gaps in defence and either exploiting them himself or passing well (something Youngs still struggles with!) so that others can exploit them.

In the final Youngs dragged Leicester in to the game, a game that was pretty comfortably dictated by a Quins side who's game winning tempo came from Care.

Care is ahead of Youngs but Youngs has potential and has shown glimpses of that at times. It's probably still too close to call between them.

In the final Youngs dragged Leicester in to the game, a game that was pretty comfortably dictated by a Quins side who's game winning tempo came from Care

Care also had a largely free ride for the majority of the final as the Tigers pack imploded. Alesana Tuilagi and George Chuter combining to gift Quins the first try of the game didn't help. Care did well but Youngs was phenominal.

Incidentally I actually agree with Beshocked that Youngs should not have been picked for the 6N. The tactics were as anti-Youngs as possible and he was no where near top form or fitness. Had Care been able to act like an adult he probably would have taken Youngs place for the tournament and secured the 9 shirt ahead of the summer tour.

Care is all about creating gaps in defence and either exploiting them himself or passing well (something Youngs still struggles with!) so that others can exploit them.

Youngs struggles to create gaps to attack? That's a good one. Youngs is one of Tigers best attacking assets, don't believe me? Go watch the Ulster game at WR. The introduction of an unfit Ben Youngs (as seen by the podge around his waste) late in the game changed the tempo and Tigers got the try to make sure Ulster left with nothing.

In terms of game plans Care and Youngs are pretty similar. Difference being Care is more reliable (as you'd expect being 4 years Youngs senior) but Youngs is the more explosive. Care should be getting another chance to stake his claim for the shirt come the AIs as I doubt Youngs will be fit enough.

Yappysnap I agree with that assessment.

Dummy half I agree with most of that.

No doubt Youngs is a good player on his day but on the international stage in the last year or so he hasn't performed well. He has had his sparks of excellence like vs Argentina,Ireland and South Africa but has not performed in numerous others.

I would say Cole and Foden are two of England's most consistent performers though even they are prone to howlers like all players. Look at Foden vs Italy (gifting them two tries).

Croft is an interesting one. I think he could be world class but only if other backrowers can slot in with him.

Not sure about Robshaw. Need to see more first in my opinion.

Ashton and Tuilagi - yes they could be world class.

Agree about Corbisiero and Morgan.

I like Morgan but I'm starting to worry whether he's too big a luxuary for this England pack. He doesn't have the biggest engine and the English pack need to up their collective work rate not have seven forwards trying to do the work of 8.

Croft we missed in SA but his form towards the end of the season was patchy after a good 6N. Maybe a bit of a lay off will allow the rest of his body to rest up as last season was a long one for him.

I think there might be more to come from Hartley, he had a bad time of it last season but the season before he seemed to be a much bigger driving force. A good pre season with Saints might see him rejuvinated yet.

If Ben Morgan can get his fitness sorted out, then I think he could push to be one of the best no. 8's in the world. He reminds me so much of Scott Quinell, and he did not become a true great until he sorted his fitness out.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I like Morgan but I'm starting to worry whether he's too big a luxuary for this England pack. He doesn't have the biggest engine and the English pack need to up their collective work rate not have seven forwards trying to do the work of 8.

Croft we missed in SA but his form towards the end of the season was patchy after a good 6N. Maybe a bit of a lay off will allow the rest of his body to rest up as last season was a long one for him.

I think there might be more to come from Hartley, he had a bad time of it last season but the season before he seemed to be a much bigger driving force. A good pre season with Saints might see him rejuvinated yet.

On the Youngs front, I think we've seen enough very strong performances from Ben Youngs to say that he absolutely has the potential to be one of the best No.9s in the world. He has had some really sublime performances for England right through the age groups and well into senior level. Incidentally usurping Care on the 2010 Australia tour.

On the Morgan front Sam, I think it's important to remember that he, like Youngs is only 22. These guys need time and experience to develop their game. They have the attributes and they both have the attitude to be top players. That's something we often overlook when discussing England.

With players like Manu, Youngs, Marler, Cole and even Robshaw they're all only relatively young. Indeed so are the team as a whole. In SOME cases they need a bit of extra exposure and time to develop their top game consistently.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Youngs struggles to create gaps to attack? That's a good one.

No Youngs still struggles to throw accurate passes, which is a pretty big fault.

As to Care acting like an adult, I think just about any young bloke has done the same as him at one time or another, he was just unlucky enough to do it after some other players had already screwed up. And Youngs is pretty well known for petulance too.

Care should be praised for how he's bounced back from being dropped.

All in all they are pretty even tbh but as a Quins fan i'd back Care over Youngs at the moment.

On the Morgan front Sam, I think it's important to remember that he, like Youngs is only 22. These guys need time and experience to develop their game.

I'm hoping Morgan's move to Glaws will help him with that. They are building a powerful wrecking ball of a pack down in cider country so it will be interesting to see how he fits in. I can't see the likes of Hamilton holding his tongue in training if Morgan isn't pulling his weight. The guy has got a lot of classy skills which he reliably brings to the part but a number 8 needs to get through more work in the tight than he does. When Waldrom is putting in more of a shift than you are you know something needs to improve. The likes of SA can carry players like Spies but right now this England pack needs all hands to the pump.

I'm not sure Nigel Davies, who was happy to carry him as a luxuary at Scarlets, is the best thing for him at Glaws but then again Moriarty is an uncomprimising chap and he's involved in the coaching. An important season for Morgan.

With players like Manu, Youngs, Marler, Cole and even Robshaw they're all only relatively young.

I'm pleased with all of the aboves efforts on the recent tour. Particularly Robshaw in the first test. There is the start of a damn decent England team in place.

As to Care acting like an adult, I think just about any young bloke has done the same as him at one time or another, he was just unlucky enough to do it after some other players had already screwed up. And Youngs is pretty well known for petulance too

Being gobby is standard for a 9 though, being caught drunk and disorderly as well as drunk driving (though not heavilly over the limit) is not so clever a thing and a damn sight different. He has bounced back in the correct manner, unsuprising when you consider COS is his coach though.

I was unimpressed with Care's antics though knew try were probably seen a bit disproportionately by the media and the apparently unfounded sexual assault allegations were disgraceful in how they were handled. However, the steps he took afterwards and the way his attitude seems to have changed and his game has gotten steadier make me optimistic about his future and I think it will BR very hard to separate Youngs and Care if they both get prolonged fitness.

Either could pick up a Lions cap IMO

To be honest CJ I think both might tour. Phillips will tour from Wales but with Peel in the international wilderness and the other Welsh options yet to establish themselves at international level I doubt they will be selected. In Scotland the form 9 has gone to play in the French second division, the other 9s have been hampered by injuries and drops in form. Ireland can't make up their mind with which 9 should start either Reddan or Murray and neither have shown any great form in the green jersey.

Meanwhile Youngs and Care will both be getting international rugby for England on the back of some decent form for Care in SA and a brilliant game for Youngs in the second test. That will help them in terms of consideration.

When you mention Youngs it is imperative that the word Flood emerges in the same breath (and vice-versa). Neither of these guys operates effectively without t'other.

When you mention Youngs it is imperative that the word Flood emerges in the same breath (and vice-versa). Neither of these guys operates effectively without t'other

The Youngs/Ford combo worked well enough at the end of the season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

When you mention Youngs it is imperative that the word Flood emerges in the same breath (and vice-versa). Neither of these guys operates effectively without t'other

The Youngs/Ford combo worked well enough at the end of the season.

Not at all Sam. When both are fully fit they are far more effective together than separately.

This season will tell us who of the hopefuls and fringe players can make the step up. Gona be a fascinating season...

It's not a bad statement from Lancaster, and at present, highlights the short comings in the England squad - a lack of indisputable world class players.

If the above thread demonstrates anything, it is that England currently don't possess a player that beyond doubt meets the general consensus of what constitutes a world class player. Several hopefuls, but no nailed on indisputable world class player.

Compare that to 2003 - Vickery, Thompson, Johnson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio, Wilkinson, Greenwood and Robinson.

That's nine, and there are several other open to debate - Woodman, Dawson and Lewsey.

I agree with Lancaster. All the structures and coaching will get you so far, but he needs at least 7 players to step up to the plate individually and raise their games to the next level. I'm talking particularly about: Cole, Corbisiero, Lawes, Croft, Youngs, Tuilagi and Foden. There are others, but that group of 7 has real potential, and needs to start consistently delivering.

It's the lightning-bolt revelation from SL that astounds me. Essentially he's saying is that in order to build a good team is that you have to have good players.

Unfortunately, like the RFU and Squeaky, that means seeing which coaches or players are currently in the ascendant.

RFU:
Nine months ago Mallinder was being groomed for the coach role or any big fish in the international pond. Fortunately for the Tigers with the RWC and injuries the next English coach was overlooked*.

* Because he's steadily, reasonably successful over a longish period.

SL
So SL fell into the job. But he perpetuated the myth that currently successful club coaches must be good - but he, in turn, appointed Andy Farrell (a recipe for disaster and to carry the pro-game twenty years backwards. For Andy Farrell read Pol Pot who tried to subjugate his people back to the stone age.

His strategy is now becoming apparent. Player X didn't do so well. So sit him on the bench and replace him with the player in that position in the team that is currently doing well.
That is it.
It matters nought if that player has being playing well within his club's set-up because of his positive, affective role in the team or whether he has fulfilled a team plan and has been effective.

To create an effective team of course you need good players. But it's more than that. What you need is good players playing in extraordinary units with harmonious groups.

It's not the individuals.

To create an effective team of course you need good players. But it's more than that. What you need is good players playing in extraordinary units with harmonious groups.

It's not the individuals.

+1. It's about making the players better than the some of their parts, as an example look at Exeter.

Nine months ago Mallinder was being groomed for the coach role or any big fish in the international pond. Fortunately for the Tigers with the RWC and injuries the next English coach was overlooked

It was good for Tigers that Mallinder was overlooked? Or do you mean Cockers is the next English coach? Because that will never happen the RFU will not appoint someone that stubborn and outspoken.

Sam

It was good for Tigers that Mallinder was overlooked? Or do you mean Cockers is the next English coach? Because that will never happen the RFU will not appoint someone that stubborn and outspoken.

Depends if SCW is involved at HQ Central methinks.