Cut the nose to spite the face

First topic message reminder :

Did they just cut the nose to spite the face ?

Yes indeed ECB cut their nose to spite their face.

With 7000 runs, 88 tests @ 50+ average, a big 100 in his last overseas innings in Lanka to keep England hanging in as No. 1 and another big hundred in what was defnitely his LAST test to yet again keep them hanging by a flimsy thread as No.1....KP's status as their biggest superstar in the last 3 decades and a legend in English cricket is already confirmed.


The intent obviously was to "hit back and hurt back".......instead of finding ways to reconcile and move forward.
Unfortunately ECB's timing was as bad as their intent.
.
If it was repraminding and putting down a newbie with 20 odd tests and 1500 runs.....then ECB's intent to "hit back and hurt" may have worked.......but here they have probably added martyrdom to an exisiting superstardom.

KP could have finished with 9000 or even 10,000 runs in the next 3 years....even without those extra 2,000 runs runs..nothing changes in his standing as a cricketer...the loser is English cricket.

An extraordinary batsman, who served England well for long, a flawed genius who acknowledged his flawed emotionalism and one who took severeal steps towards reconcillation....the super star who was made a martyr today by the bureaucrats who did a classic " cut their nose to spite their own face"......is how history would sum it up when dust settles over this issue.

Everyone has to make a mandatory statement on how good life is without the monster called KP....now it's Woakes turn.



'This is a fantastic dressing room to come into,’ said Woakes. ‘Everyone is welcoming when fresh faces come in, it doesn’t seem to change.

'Kevin is a fantastic player but there is a lot of talent in that dressing room now

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2193892/Kevin-Pietersen-accused-making-derogatory-comments-James-Taylor.html#ixzz24j62lt7C

Derek Pringle was a very mediocre player, and this article is utter trash!. Mike's post above makes some excellent points, but the most important one is if KP had criticised Taylor in some context during a team meeting and it reached this journalistic trasher, then would Andy Flower take some action? Or those standards apply only to KP again? This has been the most ridiculous of the aligations leveled against Pietersen in this entire saga, and it is in many ways continuation of an ECB and media sponsored witch hunt against the man.
KP could or couldn't have said anything critical of Taylor. Perhaps he said he shouldn't have given his wicket away after getting set that too late in the day?

It is still unclear what exactly is going on: no mention of this on the bbc, a paragraph in the times at the end of an article about Woakes (which quotes Woakes's rather bland comments on the dressing-room, which are almost perfect non-answers and really nothing interesting at all), nothing that I can find in the guardian or the independent.

msp83 wrote:if KP had criticised Taylor in some context during a team meeting and it reached this journalistic trasher, then would Andy Flower take some action?

I would hope so. Again it depends on context, if it was merely a bit of a throw-away comment "we had a meeting where we cleared the air, x and y happened, KP had a bit of a go at Taylor's scoring rate/shot to get out, z happened" by someone who gets on well with Pringle then that is completely daft, but not in itself malicious (this could have been done before all the fuss really kicked off remember). It could be a private warning or a public one, with an acknowledgement of "he meant no harm, but has to be careful who he talks to about confidential matters in the future". If on the other hand it's someone who after the s**t hit the fan has rung up Pringle with "and here's another thing about KP..." then that's simply unacceptable, and has to lead to public admonishment, maybe more depending on how Flower feels. Certainly an apololgy to the rest of the team.

msp83 wrote:This has been the most ridiculous of the aligations leveled against Pietersen in this entire saga, and it is in many ways continuation of an ECB and media sponsored witch hunt against the man.

Just to pick up on this, I agree entirely with the opening salvo, although as of itself right now this is not evidence of anything to do with the media or the ECB, it's one article by someone who has a long history...

look i am one of KP's biggest fans- and by hook or by crook i want him back in the team. But if he really texted saffas about how to bolw to strauss(for what ever intent and even if they knew what to do anyway) that is unacceptable!! and i completly understand the ECB's stance.. We also know that KP does cause issues and isnt the best team member.

Anyway i stand by what i said - I want him straight back in the team. but completly understand where the ECB is coming from as well.

Saffers have bowling around the wicket to AS since the 2008 series. And AS hasn't been able to buy a run against them since the start of that series. Even in the first test, Morkel went around the wicket to Strauss from ball one. So why would KP tell them to do that when they are already doing it?

why did he tell them?

its kinda simple- because he hates strauss. and allthough he is an england player- he clearly would rather strauss have bad figures to push him out the door!!

offcourse the saffas know how to bowl to strauss - thats not the point

he problem isn't what KP said to the SA team to get Strauss out, it is the fact that he said it.

It once again goes towards attitude. The only deduction you can make when one player SMS's or tweets the opposition to relay any knid of message that has a negative message, is that the player involved has no respect for his team.

Like I said a while ago, Flower needs to sit his team down in front of KP, and clear the air.

Let them have a go at one another to get any and all frustrations or ill feelings toward each other out and only then can you mend bridges.

This thing of saying things behind other players backs is not healthy and can destroy a team's morale.

yeah agreed bilt..

KP_fan wrote:Everyone has to make a mandatory statement on how good life is without the monster called KP....now it's Woakes turn.



'This is a fantastic dressing room to come into,’ said Woakes. ‘Everyone is welcoming when fresh faces come in, it doesn’t seem to change.

'Kevin is a fantastic player but there is a lot of talent in that dressing room now

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2193892/Kevin-Pietersen-accused-making-derogatory-comments-James-Taylor.html#ixzz24j62lt7C

This does seem a rather unnecessary and unhelpful comment from Woakes at first sight. However, just like Pietersen's comments about Taylor as Mike and JD have well flagged, it vey much depends upon context and circumstances.

If Woakes just volunteered this statement and in particular the bit about Pietersen, it is pot stirring in nature and unwelcome. However, it becomes far more understandable if he was replying to such questions as ''Have you been made welcome in the dressing room?'' and ''Do you think you have any chance without Pietersen?''.

With regard to the Pringle article, I agree with Mike's comments that he (Pringle) appears somewhat prejudicial and ill-informed.

The reference to ''Taylor, who is just 5 feet 4in'' would have validity if Pietersen had challenged the debutant to a physical fight but appears irrelevant to the current issue other than a cheap attempt to elicit sympathy for an alleged victim.

Pringle refers to the difficulties of a face to face meeting between Strauss and Pietersen in the next few days as the England captain will be playing in a CC match at Worcs. Pringle then adds - unless Pietersen is ''prepared'' to meet him there. This overlooks the fact that Pietersen will be in Taunton at the same time for Surrey's CC match against Somerset.

As I've said before, Pietersen has substantial character flaws and a track record of misdemeanours which cause me to question his place in the national side. However, there is no need to invent or exaggerate issues, particularly when any facts are so bitty. Doing so helps no one and only clouds matters further.

True, but it does show the general "feeling" towards KP.

I agree it is wrong though, but when team members all in essence echo the same sentiments, it does make for a clearer picture as to how KP has influenced the atmosphere.

So there is no code of conduct when speaking to media?....
no instructions or even guidelines given to new-comers ?.....when sending them to face the media ( such as Bresnan)...or when being impromptu put on the spot by the media( even if that was the case with Woakes).......on what absolutely not to say.
To excercise the "no comments" line ?
To absolutely refrain from using the mention of KP...and let the management / ECB deal with that name and situation?

Building on what Guildford says, I would suggest it is important never to underestimate the ability of the media to:

* decide in advance what the story is before the facts are gathered
* alter facts to fit the story
* take quotes out of context
* take advantage of people who haven't been on media training courses

Woakes' quote may be entirely harmless comments which have been deliberately manipulated to imply criticism. Simply can't tell from info available.

I imagine it's as guildford says. Woakes's comments came in response to a specific question about KP, we all know how much the media love stirring pots and this IMO is no exception. To be honest they're rather innocuous looking comments anyway I think.

Hopefully Strauss and KP can have that meeting, and things can be sorted out properly. Hopefully we don't hear anything about that meeting either.

Pringle's column is pathetic TBH, it's like he's throwing out as much mud as he can on KP and hoping some of it sticks. Despicable.

I agree with Mike re the Taylor criticism: if it's something he partook in a private team meeting (as Mike says these are necessary in any team), there's no way it should have been made public. All a bit of a mess really.

The trasher's article itself says that KP criticised Taylor in front of the whole team. So what should he have done, send his thoughts through an SMS???? What an idiot!. How on earth did he manage to play 30 tests for England by the way? distinctly average with the bat and ball, just like his tabloid stuff.

Woakes's statement about Pietersen was in reply to a direct question, and followed by words to the effect of "it's tough for me to comment on it, given I wasn't involved with the team at the time". The statement on team welcoming came at a different point of the interview. Juxtapositioning the two statements (and omitting the final bit) is mischevious journalism at best. I don't think any criticism of Pietersen was made at all, and I struggle to see how you could interprate his words that way.

I still vote for "this latest info makes no useful addition to the saga". Strauss and KP are still set to chat, and I doubt the alleged criticism of Taylor will make any difference.

I didn't think the Woakes statement was that important, Bresnan's comments earlier I thought were not in the best of tastes, but Woakes for me was doing not much more than basically deadpanning. The journos are a kind, the English ones particularly so.

While the riches on offer in the IPL may have turned the head of Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan insists he will turn his back on the most lucrative competition in world cricket if it helps him regain a place in England's Test side.

Morgan, who was dropped from the Test team after a grim series against Pakistan in the UAE, very similar to KP. is contracted to the Kolkata Knight Riders for the 2013 IPL season, but said that international cricket will always take priority and that he would prefer to play county cricket next April and May if it helps him win back a Test place.

Make of it what you will.

skyeman wrote:
While the riches on offer in the IPL may have turned the head of Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan insists he will turn his back on the most lucrative competition in world cricket if it helps him regain a place in England's Test side.

what a reveâlation from Morgan not even in the squad of 15.....not even the 16,17 or 18th man in the Peking order.....and we were expecting him to say when asked this question......" I will choose IPL over test match cricket for England"

Now comes Mr. Trott throwing his hat in the circus ring......and making His "the statement on KP"........and might have pi.ssed off Flower with his relatively supportive tone....



Trott said: “Kev has his reasons and the ECB have theirs, and they have to sort out whatever the middle ground is, draw a line and try to come to a conclusion on where they want to be.

“I can only speak for the guys in the changing room and for myself. Everyone wants this sorted and for the future to be crystal clear

" One mercenary supporting another......might have whisphered his favourite spinner...... in the ear of Flower"


source here:
http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/morgan-hopes-crucial-talks-lead-to-kps-return-8078528.html

Had a good roast today, how were your lunches?

KP_fan wrote:

skyeman wrote:
While the riches on offer in the IPL may have turned the head of Kevin Pietersen, Eoin Morgan insists he will turn his back on the most lucrative competition in world cricket if it helps him regain a place in England's Test side.

what a reveâlation from Morgan not even in the squad of 15.....not even the 16,17 or 18th man in the Peking order.....and we were expecting him to say when asked this question......" I will choose IPL over test match cricket for England"

Or to me likewise, it is saying that KP is to an extent a money grabbing mercenary merchant

Go for the money, or the glory ??? Or all as KP's ego would like. You decide.

Adam Gilchrist, saint.

But Morgan wasn't playing county cricket last season or the one before that during the IPL was he? I would be interested to know what would be his position if KKR gives him a regular place in the playing 11 or if some other side would get his services through transfer. Not blaming Morgan entirely here, but one other thing that has to be remembered is that he was more of a regular or an upcoming prospect in the last couple of seasons of the IPL unlike the case at present, where he doesn't find himself even a squad player for England test side. KP was not in such a situation for cricketing reasons ever. Obviously understandable as to why Morgan said what he has.

Or for an example: Adam Gilchrist, an all time great. Waited for his very exceptional Test career to be over and then made super millions from the lesser form of cricket.

What a sensible, professional man

There really is NO answer to that is there!! Other than pure GREED.


Or meglomania.

skyeman wrote:There really is NO answer to that is there. Other than pure GREED.


Or meglomania.

there is one more answer .....that applies to many in "that dressing room"...when they look at KP


SOUR GRAPES

skyeman wrote:Or for an example: Adam Gilchrist, an all time great. Waited for his very exceptional Test career to be over and then made super millions from the lesser form of cricket.

What a sensible, professional man

The inaugural season of the tournament started on 18 April 2008 and lasted for 46 days

Adam Gilchrist retired Jan 2008

an alternative view....he cut short his Australia career to play IPL

Ha ha Gilly here is The epitome of "self defeating argument"

KP_fan wrote:

skyeman wrote:There really is NO answer to that is there. Other than pure GREED.


Or meglomania.

there is one more answer .....that applies to many in "that dressing room"...when they look at KP


SOUR GRAPES

That is the sought of answer that i would expect from you

KP_fan wrote:

skyeman wrote:There really is NO answer to that is there. Other than pure GREED.


Or meglomania.

there is one more answer .....that applies to many in "that dressing room"...when they look at KP


SOUR GRAPES

You've missed a trick kpf. With the news of Neil Armstrong's death overshadowing the KP saga over the weekend; clearly the ECB faked the moon landings back in the day so they'd very a way to bury coverage.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

skyeman wrote:There really is NO answer to that is there. Other than pure GREED.


Or meglomania.

there is one more answer .....that applies to many in "that dressing room"...when they look at KP


SOUR GRAPES

You've missed a trick kpf. With the news of Neil Armstrong's death overshadowing the KP saga over the weekend; clearly the ECB faked the moon landings back in the day so they'd very a way to bury coverage.

All a conspiracy.

The point being, KP is using money as a very feeble excuse when it comes to family. All the top guys can and would {still get paid a fortune} earn millions once their Test careers are over, aka Warne, Gilchrist, Muralitharan and others. Other than that, how YOU see it. Too look after your family?? When you are already a millionaire?

I have given this thread a three day break hoping it would die a death, and hoping events would take their due path. But alas NO.

So here we are.

Right. Time for a summary.

KP has never been the best team-player, but everyone had until recently gotten on with it because England were winning, and because KP was just about bearable.

Before text-gate there were a lot of mutterings: KP made some rather silly comments, the ECB behaved rather untactfully. There was some fuss about a parody twitter account which didn't help anything.

Then came text-gate: KP was obviously at fault for the text-gate. That was unacceptable. That still needs to be resolved.

KP is obviously not at fault for the criticism-of-Taylor-gate. There may have been some unacceptable behaviour by someone else. We don't actually know much about it as yet.

Pringle was a pretty hopeless international cricketer (although that isn't really his fault - he should never have been picked) and it seems not a much better journalist (that is his fault really).

The media is keen for a story, so every interview they do must have at least one question concerning KP, and whatever the answer it must be twisted to infer whatever they want to infer at that point in time.

Anyone got anything to add? Until anything new surfaces I don't see the point in carrying on the discussion. Let's talk about the actual cricket.

I know KPF has his pretty strong, arguably even irritating points/positions/insinuations at times. But there are points that need to be engaged with here. I think he's factually right on Gilchrist, he retired in Jan 2008 and the IPL started in April that year. Warne was gone long before, but Muralitharan played 2 full seasons with Sri Lanka before retiring and then continuing with the IPL. During Lanka's tour of England last time, many of their key players joined the touring party a couple of days before the test matches got going. Lasit Malinga even retired from test cricket to focus on limited over formats. Marlon Samuels opted out of the home test series against Australia and later joined the team for the West Indies tests. Sunil Narine made himself unavailable for selection for the same Australia series to play in the IPL.
The point is that Pietersen isn't alone, and the cases of Morgan and Gilchrist can be looked at from other points of view that would hold up during a logical examination.

But msp, everyone mentioned could have still played Test cricket until {and still of been millionaires}the END of their International career, and still made millions from giggle cricket.


Like many in life, GREED. KP is no different i suppose.

msp83 wrote:Sunil Narine made himself unavailable for selection for the same Australia series to play in the IPL.

That is not strictly true. Narine had no reason to suspect he was in the reckoning for a test match place when he signed the IPL contract. Once he'd performed so well against the Aussies in the ODIs, the only way he could play in the tests was if he bought out his contract or the WICB did it for him. Both parties say they simply couldn't afford it.

Mike Selig wrote:Right. Time for a summary.

KP has never been the best team-player, but everyone had until recently gotten on with it because England were winning, and because KP was just about bearable.

Before text-gate there were a lot of mutterings: KP made some rather silly comments, the ECB behaved rather untactfully.

Then came text-gate: KP was obviously at fault for the text-gate. That was unacceptable. That still needs to be resolved.

KP is obviously not at fault for the criticism-of-Taylor-gate. There may have been some unacceptable behaviour by someone else. We don't actually know much about it as yet.

Pringle was a pretty hopeless international cricketer (although that isn't really his fault - he should never have been picked) and it seems not a much better journalist (that is his fault really).

The media is keen for a story, so every interview they do must have at least one question concerning KP, and whatever the answer it must be twisted to infer whatever they want to infer at that point in time.

Anyone got anything to add? Until anything new surfaces I don't see the point in carrying on the discussion. Let's talk about the actual cricket.

Pretty good and fair summary Mike. I would add a line about the parody KP Twitter account, and that it's following by many playes is hardly good dressing roomn spirit, which seems to be so vital to the ECB. There does to be a lack of consistency by the ECB, although the level of naughty behaviour may not be equal. I still believe it's all an over reaction and all the adults across the organisation, getting paid a ton of dosh, do really need to grow up.

KP with a fine ton for Surrey in the CC. Well done, this is the way to fight back, although your batting ability is never in question!. Score them big, they'll have to take you back after a point.

163 in a total of 317, and he was last out. Interesting he might just be left out in the cold if he doesn't get a central contract, without a county as Surrey seems to be unwilling to put up with his bills.

He reconfirmed today......that he stands several feet taller than the players around him in the county game and even thoser that are in England colors now......llike the unbelievable Patel who Even BD would have great difficulty in acocmodating

I hate to be the guy who starts this thread up again, but the ECB have called a press conference for 12 tomorrow and according to Aggers he has no idea what it is about, but the rumours are it either concerns Kevin directly or it concerns the future of Andrews Strauss as England captain, which obviously affects (or effects, I don't know the difference. Anyone an English teacher?) Kevin as well.

Too soon for anything regarding KP. With the T20 squad announced, I imagine both sides aren't rushing into anything.

Strauss falling on his sword wouldn't surprise though, I'd imagine he'd stop short of retiring.

JDizzle wrote:I hate to be the guy who starts this thread up again, but the ECB have called a press conference for 12 tomorrow and according to Aggers he has no idea what it is about, but the rumours are it either concerns Kevin directly or it concerns the future of Andrews Strauss as England captain, which obviously affects (or effects, I don't know the difference. Anyone an English teacher?) Kevin as well.

JD - I'm not an English teacher but "affects" is correct in the context used. A simple rule of thumb would be that when you want a verb to show that X has an influence on Y - as in "a slow pitch affects our chances of scoring 400 runs in a day", then "affects" is the one to use. "Effects" can also be used as a verb tho' in more limited circumstances, as in to make or put into effect, eg to "effect a change".

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

JDizzle wrote:I hate to be the guy who starts this thread up again, but the ECB have called a press conference for 12 tomorrow and according to Aggers he has no idea what it is about, but the rumours are it either concerns Kevin directly or it concerns the future of Andrews Strauss as England captain, which obviously affects (or effects, I don't know the difference. Anyone an English teacher?) Kevin as well.

JD - I'm not an English teacher but "affects" is correct in the context used. A simple rule of thumb would be that when you want a verb to show that X has an influence on Y - as in "a slow pitch affects our chances of scoring 400 runs in a day", then "affects" is the one to use. "Effects" can also be used as a verb tho' in more limited circumstances, as in to make or put into effect, eg to "effect a change".

Cheers Corporal. It's always something that annoys me when I am writing. I was so pleased when I got to drop any subject that in an exam required an answer more than 3 lines long!

I have sneaking suspicion...based on Flower's very diplomatic statements whihc we have from a few days back somewhere in this thread.....he is putting passive pressure on Strauss to quit

"Perhaps England's biggest self-inflicted injury came in their selection of the squad. England's best player, in the form of his life, was absent. Not just absent, but absent making 163 runs on a pitch on which none of his Surrey team-mates could pass 34. Kevin Pietersen may be belligerent, egocentric and infuriating, but he is England's best player in all formats and they could have done with him in Southampton.

Pietersen has apologised for his transgressions, he has made himself available and he would, on merit, walk into the England side. The ECB, through their intransigence and unforgiving attitude, are in danger of damaging the English game just as much as the player. England may console themselves with the thought that current team is united and will stick together. But so do lemmings and sheep. Unity is not, in all circumstances, such an overwhelmingly positive characteristic". George Dobell, senior correspondent ESPNcricinfo
The expert views are changing a bit, of course the 30 test trasher will have a different take, but the sensible ones have started speaking KP. You can only turn it around by scoring big runs consistently. I hope he takes every opportunity that comes his way to score big runs and show England what they are missing. That would help him a lot, his teammates would also see the larger side, they would realize that although he may not be the most affable person on the planet, his skills will be very handy for the team to win cricket matches.

^since it was publicly announced that KP and Strauss cannot be in the same dressing room......... they are clearing the way for him to return by getting rid of the imminently disposable one

and i said after the JB score of 90.....and simultaneously Strauss failing in T3....that the biggest and immediate victim of Pitersengate will be Strauss.
Flower will find a way to hide behind his verbose, verbiage, wordsmithed double meaning stances.

Bottomline......KP is there and Strauss Gone

Moral.....You have to perform...merely being in the good books with the coach ain't enouhg

Are you for real?

Positive signs?

Speaking as England captain Andrew Strauss announced his retirement from cricket, Morris said: "We will be seeking discussions [with Pietersen]

"They will be behind closed doors."

New England captain Alastair Cook says he plans to get involved in the discussions "in the coming weeks".