Facing which team gets your nerves the jumpiest?

First topic message reminder :

Well the start of the 4N is almost upon us and the nerves and anticipation have already set in. It got me thinking though: which team gives me the biggest case of the heebie jeebies when the ABs face them?

I guess this changes over the years and depends greatly on the form of the team. In the 90s, facing Australia was a tall order and one we often found unable to surmount. Traditionally the Boks have been the greatest foe and they still command for me the greatest respect, which in turn you might say conjures up the biggest fear. France in a World Cup knockout match fills me with a deep sense of dread. England are a team I must confess I'm always glad to see beaten but I suspect I am not alone in this feeling. The fear of losing is different to the prospect of losing to SA. It is more the fear of losing to a team that is all too willing to remind you of having lost to them, (and fair enough!). Then there are the teams that have never beaten the ABs but there is the tangible fear like this series against Ireland that records are made to be broken.

So if you were to create a world ranking of fear for me as an AB supporter, I think it'd go something like this.

1. South Africa
2. France (capable of jumping to 1 in a RWC knockout match
3. Australia
4. Wales
5. England
6. Argentina
7. Ireland
8. Scotland
9. Manu Samoa
10. Japan (one day they built tiny transistors and changed the world. I think they can go to the other extreme and create Godzilla rugby players and change the rugby world).

Honourable mentions Georgia and Romania. They strike fear in me because players one to fifteen look like something spawned from a giant cloning machine.

Who strikes fear into you the most at the moment?

For me the want or need to see another country fail because of history is a no no.

For me sport transcends all of history and tradition.

Sport to me is the modern day "tribal" battle zone. Maybe that is why identification and representing your own country is so important to me.

Our best against your best, history has no baring on it for me. The fact that England ruled us and waged war against us 100 + years ago is an entirely different subject.

Good sentiments, biltong.

Sadly there are still a fair number who think the sons should bear the sins of the fathers. People who weren't born when events happened having resentment towards those who also weren't alive then is a bit odd. Especially in a sporting context.

Fair enough mystir. I think he may have been living in the UK when a few AB RWC exits happened and an English friend or Englishman rubbed it in. It happened to me in 2007 - I went to Dublin for a friend's 40th and an Englishman was prodding me. I don't have a problem with it but I think that's what happens when the favourites don't win and I think it's a good thing actually the RWCs to date have been distributed evenly around the best teams. But yes, I agree there does seem a lot of people happy to see their team beat England. If England lose to another team though, I certainly don't get any enjoyment out of it. Same if England beat Australia. I only care about the AB games and if I watch other matches not involving NZ I just want to see a good game.

CJ I think the disenchantment began in WW1 with the Galilpoli campaign. The British military commanders were inept and that's when the ANZAC spirit began and the birth of independence. The fall of Singapore and the realisation in WW2 that we were on our own in that part of the world and then the barriers to the EC completed the shift. Like I said, that baggage unfairly gets dumped on England.

Surely the people that waged war against SA are the ones still there- basically the Safas themselves(of In this case wasnt it actually the dutch settlers that started the war against the britsh setllers!!!), anyway your right its a different topic. However it does drive me mad when people blame the english on colonization- when in reality its not the english any more is it!! Its the kiwis, the aussies, the saffas etc

mystiroakey wrote:Surely the people that waged war against SA are the ones still there- basically the Safas themselves(of In this case wasnt it actually the dutch settlers that started the war against the britsh setllers!!!), anyway your right its a different topic. However it does drive me mad when people blame the english on colonization- when in reality its not the english any more is it!! Its the kiwis, the aussies, the saffas etc

Well that's knid of the point, civilisation is where it is today because of history, now we must move on. Sport is an example of goodwill one nation has toward another whereby they compete in an honourable pursuit on sporting grounds across the world.

What were your thoughts on 1981 Biltong? Just curious mate.

On what?

The flourbombs?
The political situation?
The referee that just would let the game end?

Just your thoughts on the tour going ahead and the political climate etc

Biltong wrote:The referee that just would let the game end?

What Clive Norling? Surely you’re not bringing his time keeping skills into question?

To be fair, it needed a damn special kick from Alan ‘mittens’ Hewson to win that game Biltong!

I was at a game in Wellington celebrated by John Eales' kick with time up. A certain Mr Kaplan happened to play eight minutes of injury time which was baffling to me

Nobody strolled up and nailed that penalty. That was when things were really grim and things like Gregan's tackle on Goldie (suit you sir) made you think it just wasn't meant to be. I wonder how the Aussie fans must think because even though it's been 10 years since they had the Bledisloe there have been a hell of a lot of games with a margin of 3 points or less in those losses. I feel their pain.

disney, I sent you a PM, subject too sensitive for open forum.

Kia we might prod you, but that would just be banter. We have great banter with Aussies, maybe many people look at Kiwis in the same way! We would never laugh at a cricket loss though, it is only because we respect how good you are at Rugby that we may give you banter. Maybe you lot are nothing like the Aussies and we should treat you with kid gloves. But the reality is we are not happy if you lose a game, why would it bother us!!

disneychilly wrote:I was at a game in Wellington celebrated by John Eales' kick with time up. A certain Mr Kaplan happened to play eight minutes of injury time which was baffling to me

Absolutely remember that....it was diabolical. NZ had a scrum nr the Aus line and he disctinctly said two mins left......4 mins, two penalties kicked to touch and another penalty later, Eales lined up his wobbly kick....what a moment but phooey to Kaplan for that!

I think it ushered in the siren sounding from the touchline era to signal time up did it not? Trust us kiwis to become so enraged with injustice that we seek ways to ensure we can never be duped again!

mystiroakey wrote:Maybe you lot are nothing like the Aussies and we should treat you with kid gloves.

That's probably where you're going wrong oakey - if we were like aussies, we'd be aussies! Seriously though, we're far more chilled out people than australians and most other nationalities I think. However, we do get patriotic over issues which by world standards are fairly minor. Probably because of our isolation and need to feel part of the 'global village'...you'd only understand it if you were part of it I guess!

The thing is certain countries seem to laugh at englands acheivments or losses with pure virtiol and hate. With the aussies its a constant back and forth thing based on competitiveness which is just simple banter and getting one up on each other IMO.

mystir like I said it didn't bother me. I remember on the old 606 writing an article on how impressive England were in that tournament when even their own fans wrote them off after that Bok thrashing in the pool game.

I think most people want to see the favourites go out of the RWC tournament. I think England would be happy if the ABs were moved out the way like in 2007. I get that. It's a bit like winning a hand in poker with pocket As. You have a 60 per cent chance of winning so when you do win it's no big thing. But when you get beaten by 7 2 offsuit then it makes for a more interesting spectacle.

From a NZ perspective, I'm not sure about that. I certainly don't but I've been here 10 years now. I felt as proud of the british olympics team as I did the NZ team this year for example.

Granted, England do cop a bit from me when it comes to rugby but that is only in jest otherwise I would have been hounded out of my rugby club a long time ago. I give as much as I get (proportionately speaking)....

Kia

Well thats just common sense, pragmatic and natural. It isnt being happy over anothers dissapointmnent or failure.

Good man mystir.

Mintie I have dual citizenship. My father is Scottish and my mother's parents were English. I guess there are many Kiwis in that boat so it's only natural to feel a part of that. Especially if you live there. 29 golds for GB is a phenomenal achievement. Despite what SJ thinks, 6 for NZ is a great effort too.

I was living in London in 2005 when England beat Australia in the ashes and I was cheering England on. Seeing the favourites fall makes sport exciting. When the predictable occurs it's a bit dull. Unless you're an AB fan of course and your appetite for success is insatiable!

Otago, for a large part since readmission their was politics about race within rugby and I think that weakened our team a bit. Luckily I think that time has now passed for us in our national side atleast.

I am not saying that if we could field our strongest team we might have gotten 40% because when we did field a team that the government didn't like we still lost, but I am sure we would have sneaked an extra one or two out of it.

Also you were clearly superior to us in that period and all the other nations, but we just got into the international fray again and I don't think we had really our structures ready for the youngsters to come through then.

Now the picture looks quite different for us, I am sure you guys will still be the best team for some time, but atleast I don't feel scared (as a fan) of playing you. It still the best game for me to watch, but I don't get on my nerves playing against you till the last few minutes in the game.

Teams I feel nevous against as a South African:

1. Ireland
2. France

I think that is basically it, probably because I expect us to win, but we sometimes just don't

I really wanted to put Wales there, but I just have this feeling that we will beat them - not because they are not better than us, I actually think there has been a couple of games that they have been better than us, rather that their team don't believe they are better than us.

NZ and Aus I wan't to win, but I am almost never distraught if we lose, because I expect it to be close and I know fully well that we can come out losing the game. I will be disappointed, but we play them often enough to make up for it.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

Recent form being Ireland winning 6 of the last 8 6N games against England? A decade ago England would be top of the list of teams I wanted to beat, now I'm not so bothered cause we've beaten you so many times in recent years. Don't think that because our tighthead prop got injured in the first scrum and we had to play an average loosehead at 3 for the rest of the match all of a sudden means England are the nemesis again. The recent record between Ireland and England is heavily stacked in Irelands favour and not just at international level but Heineken Cup level as well.

Given we're discussing International matches, I don't think we're about to bring the HEC in to this. Despite the obvious nerve touched here, let's look dispassionately at the last 4 games (recent form). It's 2-2 on that count, and I would venture that that alone would be enough to justify a bit more concern over a match-up. I would also be a bit more hesitant about excusing the scrum performance by laying it all at Tom Court's door.

On the English 'hating' I would just say that it would be refreshing to move on from battles and conquests which took place, in some instances, over a thousand years ago. When I watch a Scotland v Australia, Wales v NZ or Ireland v SA match i'm invariably cheering on the home nations. The Lions, if anything, surely shows us what can be achieved.

I fear though that the converse is true when England play, and that above all is sad. The Empire is long gone and we're living in a vastly more globalised world. Let's put these differences and petty hang-ups aside and pull together in a common cause - such as Team GB for example!

As far as an English reaction goes, I can say that it often feels like a lose lose situation in competitive sport. Either we lose and get berated for being crap or win and get berated for being arrogant. It just entrenches some people into a very partisan view!

Yes I agree it's unjustified. There are village idiots in every country I'm afraid who only look to dig up the past or spout the same crap. But maybe we could all move away from the idea of the old enemy and concentrate on facing a rugby team rather than a nation.

When the ABs lose I am always disappointed. I always look to see how we could've won and look for areas in which the coach and players need to improve. But I also think it's important to take a deep breath and acknowledge that the other side won. Take the ref out of the equation because what's done is done. What mattered was during the match. Not hypothesising on what might have been after the match in terms of decisions.

Winning is great but nerves are an indication that it matters to you. If you're indifferent to the result or think it's a foregone conclusion, then it's no fun really winning. But when you have a real battle and you come out on top, the next match you're going to feel those butterflies and that's what I think I want to feel more often. Who it is against is irrelevant.

Chjw131 wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Duigers wrote:From an Ireland perspective:

1. New Zealand
2. France
3. South Africa
4. Australia
5. Argentina
6. Wales
7. England
8. Scotland
9. Italy
10. Samoa

I would be a bit more worried about England if I were you on recent form!

Recent form being Ireland winning 6 of the last 8 6N games against England? A decade ago England would be top of the list of teams I wanted to beat, now I'm not so bothered cause we've beaten you so many times in recent years. Don't think that because our tighthead prop got injured in the first scrum and we had to play an average loosehead at 3 for the rest of the match all of a sudden means England are the nemesis again. The recent record between Ireland and England is heavily stacked in Irelands favour and not just at international level but Heineken Cup level as well.

Given we're discussing International matches, I don't think we're about to bring the HEC in to this. Despite the obvious nerve touched here, let's look dispassionately at the last 4 games (recent form). It's 2-2 on that count, and I would venture that that alone would be enough to justify a bit more concern over a match-up. I would also be a bit more hesitant about excusing the scrum performance by laying it all at Tom Court's door.

On the English 'hating' I would just say that it would be refreshing to move on from battles and conquests which took place, in some instances, over a thousand years ago. When I watch a Scotland v Australia, Wales v NZ or Ireland v SA match i'm invariably cheering on the home nations. The Lions, if anything, surely shows us what can be achieved.

I fear though that the converse is true when England play, and that above all is sad. The Empire is long gone and we're living in a vastly more globalised world. Let's put these differences and petty hang-ups aside and pull together in a common cause - such as Team GB for example!

As far as an English reaction goes, I can say that it often feels like a lose lose situation in competitive sport. Either we lose and get berated for being crap or win and get berated for being arrogant. It just entrenches some people into a very partisan view!

What English hating is that exactly? Just pointing out that when you consistently play and beat England they aren't going to be the team that gets your nerves jumping. I wasn't berating you for being arrogant for winning, I was berating you for being arrogant in assuming that England should be top of Ireland's list, which you aren't. I would get a lot more jumpy and playing Wales currently as they have a superior recent record in head to head against us. I'm not really sure what to make of your comments about the 'empire' and I have no interest in pulling together for something like team GB as I support Ireland in the olympics.

Artfull- have you not read this thread- It has been a topic, I dont think he was targetting that with you..

On the subject of Ireland at the Olympics and for nerves to not get too jumpy on this thread, have a look at this piece of gold: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=510_1344196881&fb_action_ids=10100105271666

Back to the topic, I'd go for:

1. South Africa
2. Australia
3. Wales
4. Ireland
5. New Zealand
6. Scotland
7. France

The top 2 are winnable games in my opinion but are always close, brutal and nervy. However if we pull it off, they are massive scalps that help with the rankings.

Wales and Ireland next due to the fact that all 3 are on a fairly equal level of quality and are big games in the 6 nations.

New Zealand I never expect to beat, so just enjoy the match and inevitable pasting.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:On the subject of Ireland at the Olympics and for nerves to not get too jumpy on this thread, have a look at this piece of gold: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=510_1344196881&fb_action_ids=10100105271666

seen this on facebook kia, good stuff.

That is hillarious..

English i would actually put scotland high up as a nervy game- away anyway!!

Myst, I actually think he's spot on and England really do suffer from schadenfreude when it comes to New Zealand. It's very obvious in the press.

But you're right. Pretty much every other rugby nation takes pleasure in England defeats.

At least in Ireland we have a history of fighting (and losing) against the English. You're the big bad boogie men of our history. Same with France.

Not sure what Australia and New Zealand's problem is.

No i just cannot agree with that at all. If your talking about the lone 'welsh' journo then maybe you need to apply the logic to the welsh not the english.

Why do you uise the term schandenfreude against the english but not against the rest of the world or yourself when it comes to england. Trust me 100% we do not take pleasure from kiwis losses!!

I think it's the media FR. The English media have a nasty habit of building up one success into the dawn of the greatest era and then turning savagely on their own team when that doesn't materialise.

Then again, they're not alone in that either. Well at least the latter.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Myst, I actually think he's spot on and England really do suffer from schadenfreude when it comes to New Zealand. It's very obvious in the press.

The views of sport fans are not necessarily reflected by the press. Newspapers and other reporting media have an agenda and are often staffed by either idiots or those trying to court controversy eg Stephen Jones. I'm sure half of these journos don't even believe in what they're writing.

Also, this is not just English/British media. It's everywhere.

rubbish, The simple fact is is that many from other nations get a microscope out when it comes to england and all things english.. You lot dont need to worry about it. Its the same in all media, and on the whole much much worse else where

Basically Kia the problem is your media highlighting our media in a negaitive light. And probally way more to do with a welsh journo anyway!! We know how bad the worlds media is, and much worse than our own actually- but we do not hate the fans of those countries because of that media.

[quote="sugarNspikes"]The views of sport fans are not necessarily reflected by the press. Newspapers and other reporting media have an agenda and are often staffed by either idiots or those trying to court controversy eg Stephen Jones. quote]

I do believe Stephen Jones falls into the category of idiots though Sugar

I love the irony of the - "murray is british when he wins, scottish when he loses" comments in regards to the english from the celts

when in truth everything bad about britain gets tagged to the english.

[quote="disneychilly"]

sugarNspikes wrote:The views of sport fans are not necessarily reflected by the press. Newspapers and other reporting media have an agenda and are often staffed by either idiots or those trying to court controversy eg Stephen Jones. quote]

I do believe Stephen Jones falls into the category of idiots though Sugar

disney, yep I'd say with Jones those two characteristics are not mutually exclusive

mystiroakey wrote:Artfull- have you not read this thread- It has been a topic, I dont think he was targetting that with you..

It was a very general response in accordance with the discussion. Unfortunately it didn't entirely revolve around you. My apologies.

I'm merely answering why I think Australians and Kiwis get some extra kick out of beating England as opposed to a team like Wales, Ireland or Scotland. I'm not saying it's justified.

I'm just pointing out the effect of what Stephen Jones has on the NZ media (who are equally guilty of dismissing the opposition and turning on the ABs when they lose) and why they love to rub an English victory in his face. A little of that rubs off onto the rest of the NZ population I guess. Is it fair for one man to taint the view of an entire nation? Of course not. Does it happen. A little bit I think. That is all I'm saying.

Jones is welsh

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm merely answering why I think Australians and Kiwis get some extra kick out of beating England as opposed to a team like Wales, Ireland or Scotland. I'm not saying it's justified.

I'm just pointing out the effect of what Stephen Jones has on the NZ media (who are equally guilty of dismissing the opposition and turning on the ABs when they lose) and why they love to rub an English victory in his face. A little of that rubs off onto the rest of the NZ population I guess. Is it fair for one man to taint the view of an entire nation? Of course not. Does it happen. A little bit I think. That is all I'm saying.

Possibly the Aus and NZ media (and then the readers/viewers) need to realise that Jones is a Welshman writing for a British newspaper.

sugarNspikes wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm merely answering why I think Australians and Kiwis get some extra kick out of beating England as opposed to a team like Wales, Ireland or Scotland. I'm not saying it's justified.

I'm just pointing out the effect of what Stephen Jones has on the NZ media (who are equally guilty of dismissing the opposition and turning on the ABs when they lose) and why they love to rub an English victory in his face. A little of that rubs off onto the rest of the NZ population I guess. Is it fair for one man to taint the view of an entire nation? Of course not. Does it happen. A little bit I think. That is all I'm saying.

Possibly the Aus and NZ media (and then the readers/viewers) need to realise that Jones is a Welshman writing for a British newspaper.

And a crap one at that.

Chjw131 wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm merely answering why I think Australians and Kiwis get some extra kick out of beating England as opposed to a team like Wales, Ireland or Scotland. I'm not saying it's justified.

I'm just pointing out the effect of what Stephen Jones has on the NZ media (who are equally guilty of dismissing the opposition and turning on the ABs when they lose) and why they love to rub an English victory in his face. A little of that rubs off onto the rest of the NZ population I guess. Is it fair for one man to taint the view of an entire nation? Of course not. Does it happen. A little bit I think. That is all I'm saying.

Possibly the Aus and NZ media (and then the readers/viewers) need to realise that Jones is a Welshman writing for a British newspaper.

And a crap one at that.

The Welshman or the newspaper?

sugarNspikes wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I'm merely answering why I think Australians and Kiwis get some extra kick out of beating England as opposed to a team like Wales, Ireland or Scotland. I'm not saying it's justified.

I'm just pointing out the effect of what Stephen Jones has on the NZ media (who are equally guilty of dismissing the opposition and turning on the ABs when they lose) and why they love to rub an English victory in his face. A little of that rubs off onto the rest of the NZ population I guess. Is it fair for one man to taint the view of an entire nation? Of course not. Does it happen. A little bit I think. That is all I'm saying.

Possibly the Aus and NZ media (and then the readers/viewers) need to realise that Jones is a Welshman writing for a British newspaper.

And a crap one at that.

The Welshman or the newspaper?

The journalist. The newspaper has good and bad elements.

With a name like Jones I think we're all aware that Jones is a Welshman who writes for The Times and seems to have adopted England as his team, knowing full well where his target readership are from. I think we also realise that he's not a rugby journalist. His purpose is merely to stir the pot, provoke a reaction and draw attention to the newspaper he works for. Not a special case I'm afraid.

Mark Reason has appeared recently on the NZ website stuff to do much the same. We all know his origins and what he's up to. Again I reiterate, is it fair that the English media and England are tarnished by the gumf SJ writes? Of course not. But that is what happens I'm afraid.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:With a name like Jones I think we're all aware that Jones is a Welshman who writes for The Times and seems to have adopted England as his team, knowing full well where his target readership are from. I think we also realise that he's not a rugby journalist. His purpose is merely to stir the pot, provoke a reaction and draw attention to the newspaper he works for. Not a special case I'm afraid.

Mark Reason has appeared recently on the NZ website stuff to do much the same. We all know his origins and what he's up to. Again I reiterate, is it fair that the English media and England are tarnished by the gumf SJ writes? Of course not. But that is what happens I'm afraid.

I think the moral of the story is don't trust a Welshman who adopts England as his team. He's either gone loopy or has an ulterior motive

Oh, and it's the BRITISH media. There isn't really an English media same as there isn't an English monarchy.

Kia the question is simply this. Do you think that british media is the worse than others?

Do you understand what the rest of the worlds media is like. Why do you not apply the same logic to these other countries?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:With a name like Jones I think we're all aware that Jones is a Welshman who writes for The Times and seems to have adopted England as his team, knowing full well where his target readership are from. I think we also realise that he's not a rugby journalist. His purpose is merely to stir the pot, provoke a reaction and draw attention to the newspaper he works for. Not a special case I'm afraid.

Mark Reason has appeared recently on the NZ website stuff to do much the same. We all know his origins and what he's up to. Again I reiterate, is it fair that the English media and England are tarnished by the gumf SJ writes? Of course not. But that is what happens I'm afraid.

Also it strike me as truly odd that he seems to be so widely known about. With Sky's coverage over here he's well down the pecking order in terms of his writing being talked of.