Is anyone actually nailed on to start for England in November?

Here we are still in the 1st year of the Lancaster rein and 10(12) games played and a whole new season ahead of us free of world cup interference and with the Lions a prize to be aimed for.

However I think if Lancaster is really worth his salt he will have pressed the selection reset button and decided that not one player is a nailed on start. This actually is realistic and allows form and talent to fight for those shirts come November.

Come on England be strong and only select the very best.

Dan Cole? I'd say he is nailed on. Robshaw due to Captaincy?

Be very surprised if Corbisiero doesn't start.
Hartley, mainly because of the lack of proven back-up.
Dan Cole

Lawes
Other 2nd row spot up for grabs

Robshaw
6 and 8 shirts up for grabs. Morgan hopefully will have worked on his endurance, and if so should be the 8.

Youngs
Flood - best half back combination we have available if fit.

Ashton - I know he's not the most popular, but he is a proven international finisher

Manu
Foden - Not sure which jerseys these last two will take. They are obviously best as 13 and 15 respectively, but maybe the team is better with them at 12 and 14

So one centre spot and one back 3 spot definitely up for grabs.

Theres quite a few you could colour me amazed if they dont start ( like hartley and Foden) even if recent form for England questions that.
Others like Foden and Tuilagi it may be more a case of where they start than if they start, perhaps Robshaw too who by default gets in under the IRB "you dont drop the captain" guidance.
Cole is nailed on in his position. flood Id expect to start but you never know on with his dad picking the side, its also important that England dont endanger their record of not showing the slightest bit of attacking flair and invention from structured play which counts heavily against Flood. Youngs/Care you could choose on the flip of a coin.

Theres a lot to be settled in the side, but only a few choices that will fundamentally change the shape of the side and the way it plays, the most important one being the choice of fly half.

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
10.Flood
13.Tuilagi
14.Ashton
11/15.Foden

If fit the above players will start in my view.

Foden will start but query whether at fullback or wing, depending on whether Lancaster wants Mike Brown at 15.

I'd be very surprised if any of the above were fully fit and didn't start the AIs.

Other positions up for grabs.

just a thought and this maybe totally stupid but has anyone ever tried foden in the centres? obviously he is a very good fullback but i wonder if he would have more of an impact in the centres? saying that i dont know about any of englands other options at centre other than kicking farrel and barret

Foden wouldn't work at 12 in my view, and although you could look at him at 13, with Tuilagi, Joseph and Trinder about, I suspect he's best in the back three.

Personally I think his best position is at 15, where he can hit the line at pace and counter-attack. He may not be the best striker of a ball with the boot, but the more England look to use the ball constructively and the less they kick it away the better (for them).

England have great options at 15 though, and some differents styles of player, from Goode to Brown to May to Foden, possibly Homer next season as well.

Up to Lancaster to pick the right combination now - the excuse of not having the players to select from is starting to wear thin.

bluestonevedder wrote:Dan Cole? I'd say he is nailed on. Robshaw due to Captaincy?

Wood was injured and Robshaw succeeded him not only as England skipper but Player of the year.

There are plenty of nailed on squad players but if it's pedantry you're after ( ) the starters wont be nailed on till 24 hours before the games.

Players who can be considered very difficult to shift are, I think:

15 Foden
14 Ashton
13 Manu
12 still up for grabs
11 ditto
10 Flood
9 Youngs/Care who gets the nod will be decided on the finest of margins

1 Corbs
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 open to offers
6 ditto
7 Robshaw
8 who wants it?

If that's a realistic opinion, then 10 core players isn't too bad, however, 12 is a key position that needs someone to grab it and make it their own, likewise the No.8 spot. Morgan has impressed in the loose and off the back of a good scrum platform, but I would hope to see Fearns impressing there for Bath this season which could prove to be a very healthy competition.

6 will remain a bone of contention between Croft's supporters and detractors for ever and a day, I like him, but I think there is a need to make balances elsewhere to get the very best out of him.

It'll be Lancaster's first real test I think, he's had time to get things right and to make his mark on the general set-up, so this will be a good benchmark for "Lancaster's England".

2 wins is a C-, 3 wins a B and 4 wins an A*, who knows?

The team will show little change I fear.

When I rushed this off this lunch time, the only player I could hand on heart say deserved the shirt was Dan Cole who I think has been playing at the very top of his game for England. For me the 2012 Dan Cole was a marked step up of the previous years and on that basis he gets the shirt.

Wilson will challenge as the new Bath coaches won't take any tosh, but until then Cole is the man.

No where else in the side has either ability and form provided anyone capable of saying beyond doubt that the shirt is theirs. Either form or injury, or just plain not being good enough/bad selection has prevented anyone else taking a starting position.

So the jury is out Mr Lancaster can you select players to make a team?

Portnoy wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Dan Cole? I'd say he is nailed on. Robshaw due to Captaincy?

Wood was injured and Robshaw succeeded him not only as England skipper but Player of the year.

Yeh, but what are you saying Portnoy? That you think Wood will come back and supercede Robshaw both as starting 7 and captain? If that's your point, I can't see that happening. I would love to see a backrow of Robshaw, Wood and Haskell, but there are some many English backrow combinations I'd love to see!

My point is that Robshaw should not be considered as nailed-on because he was appointed captain last term when he, as a player is not nailed-on.

Hartley has, prima-facie, a better call for captaincy - apart from his temperament issues.

Maybe SL should pick a team and then chose a captain from it.

Ah I see what you mean. I would agree with you, but since seeing Robshaw's performances in the 1st and 2nd (lesser so) tests, I would think he is now nailed on to be honest. I think Croft has more to be worried about by Wood's inclusion.

Interesting to see so many putting Lawes as a nailed on starter. He's barely played for Saints in the last year (has he?) let alone proven form to be nailed on for England.

Whilst there are many at the moment i think have the spot or are first choice(Hartley, Palmer etc)...their shirts arent actually nailed on...except for Dan Cole. A good start by Youngs could take Hartleys shirt...a good start by Launchbury could take Palmers shirt etc.

Its a long time since the days the team picked itself....

Agree Geordie - I didn't include him. He's got to come back and show some form, injury free. He's lucky that no-one really shone in his absense, but he has plenty to prove.

He may well play, but he isn't nailed on by any means.

He's really got to prove that he can stay fit, and still compete at the same level. He's been away from international and even club rugby for a long time. THere's no doubt that he's a very good player, but he has to work his way back into the squad first of all.

PJHolybloke wrote:9 Youngs/Care who gets the nod will be decided on the finest of margins

+1 -I'd say Care, but i'm bias. He can be a slippery little bastage and quick on the initiative if he sees the other side napping.

AlastairW wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:9 Youngs/Care who gets the nod will be decided on the finest of margins

+1 -I'd say Care, but i'm bias. He can be a slippery little bastage and quick on the initiative if he sees the other side napping.

You mean just like Youngs then Ali?

Isn't Youngs broken again? Thought he was having some surgery?

Yes. SA broke him.
But personally I wouldn't play Youngs without Flood and vice versa.

Equally Care and Cipriani can work very well together.

Delon and Steffon Armitage

"Equally Care and Cipriani can work very well together."

Hopefully not on a night out though...

Isn't Youngs broken again? Thought he was having some surgery?

Yeah he hurt his shoulder during the second test where he was the best player on the pitch. I would imagine it was during his suicidal attempt to get underneath JP Peterson to stop him grounding the ball, there was a lot of weight landing on pretty much one shoulder of Benny. It was the sort of thing Moody or Ellis would have attempted. He should be back in time for the AIs but it's unknown how much gametime he'll have had by then, currently I'd have him starting (if fully fit obviously) because that game against SA was brilliant and he also has a great record against Australia. We have too few players that have faced the best three teams in the world and offered such stand out performances. It's a close thing between him and Care though hence I wouldn't say he was nailed on.

Nailed on so far:

3.Cole
7.Robshaw (because he is the current captain)
12/13.Tuilagi (he shouldn't be playing 12 but he won't be dropped as he is our best centre by quite a distance)

The others might face being shuffled around depending on what England want to do, fitness and form.

Regardless of Marler's tour, I still think Corbisiero should be the starting loosehead. He's a fantastic scrummager, and hugely underrated in my opinion. Second to that, he is brilliant on the deck (so is Cole). He just needs to get his hands on a bit more ball, and perform in the loose like he did at London Irish when he first came on the scene.

How is Morgan's fitness coming along?

I was shocked at how unfit he was, sums up Pro Welsh rugby IMO.

HERSH wrote:How is Morgan's fitness coming along?

I was shocked at how unfit he was, sums up Pro Welsh rugby IMO.

HERSH, always fishing for a

Why would I fish on an article about England?

Morgan's fitness was shocking.

Considering that the Welsh squad were probably the fitest international team in the world in recent years I'd say that said more about the Scarlets coaching regime. As the Scarlets are reknown for their skills but not their ability to finish matches off. However, that'll all change now he's at Glaws with that new coaching regime led by... oh, wait a minute...

Blue I agree on the whole on Corbs but his injury issues and the continued good form of Marler and Mullan mean there's a lot of competition for the 1 shirt. Ditto with the 6 shirt where you'd say that Croft probably holds it but his injury and them form of others make it anything but a certainty he'd start.

HERSH wrote:Why would I fish on an article about England?

Morgan's fitness was shocking.

Well, I don't know mate, think you're asking the wrong person!

I agree regarding Morgan's fitness- it was appalling. South Africa certainly came as a shock. But, I genuinely think Wales are one of the fittest teams around, so to suggest that his personal fitness reflects that of the entire Welsh league is a bit silly.

Sorry if I assumed wrong, but it sounded like you were fishing, and it would be a shame for another article to turn into a turf war.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Blue I agree on the whole on Corbs but his injury issues and the continued good form of Marler and Mullan mean there's a lot of competition for the 1 shirt. Ditto with the 6 shirt where you'd say that Croft probably holds it but his injury and them form of others make it anything but a certainty he'd start.

I think Marler offers a little more in the loose, but less in the scrums and at the breakdown- so it's really tight between those two. Mullan continues to impress. Was it against the northern or southern barbarians over the summer that he was faced with that HUGE prop (must have been 130-140kg), but owned him in the scrums? THat was seriously impressive stuff from Mullan, considering he's regarded as quite small for a prop.

Morgan was injured prior to the tour wasnt he. And was woefully match fit...but the total lack of 8's saw him tour.

However he still will have.to prove that he can hack playing a full match at max intensity rather than 20 mins.
The knives are out already

I wouldn't say Wales are the fittest International team around.

Thats why they lose BIG games in the last few mins.

They have improved over the last couple of years but I put that down to the fact that the players are younger and Adam Jones has stopped eating after 10pm.

Once again Sam I contend

7.Robshaw (because he is the current captain)

Robshaw was made captain as at best the best candidate available at the time. Prior to injury, Wood might have been the de-facto captain.

Robshaw, imo, should not be 'nailed-on' simply because he's the current skipper. Rather he should be nailed-on as a player and then continue as skipper...

Your contention simply illustrates the sort of short-term thinking I've tried to highlight in another article.

Robshaw has not had a bad game since he was made captain, and there is not another English qualified 7 who is currently screaming out for selection through the sheer excellence of their performances. Unless that happens through September and October, I would say Robshaw is nailed on.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Robshaw has not had a bad game since he was made captain, and there is not another English qualified 7 who is currently screaming out for selection through the sheer excellence of their performances. Unless that happens through September and October, I would say Robshaw is nailed on.

Exactly. Unless... he's nailed on. Not because he's current captain he's nailed on.

Robshaw was made captain as at best the best candidate available at the time. Prior to injury, Wood might have been the de-facto captain.

Your contention simply illustrates the sort of short-term thinking I've tried to highlight in another article.

The only reason he'd lose his captaincy is because of outrageous poor form and that would appear to be unlikely but not out of the question (the new season hasn't started you don't know). His good form is what has maintained the captaincy for him and so as such he is currently a definite starter. Lancaster has shown no particular loyalty to whomever is wearing the captains arm band so far and I hope it continues.

We'll never know as to whether Lancaster would have actually given the captaincy to Wood that was purely media speculation.

Lancaster equally has never had to be tested on his captain's form.

As I think we both agree Sam, it's not the player, but the unit/combination which should be paramount in order to optimise the team.

My feeling is that it is incumbent on the coach to select the best optimal team capable beating the next opposition.

If push came to shove and you asked me to nominate a player who is nailed on ability, frankly only Cole stands out. Next Foden/Hartley.

So on that basis, for me pick one of those as captain - until they lose form/get a reasonable challenger.

I'm not convinced that the captain holds that much sway on the park these days anyway as the gameplan is pre-determined largely by the coaching team. Witness the fact that skippers are fairly frequently subbed-off these days.

Team starters first. Skipper next

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Robshaw was made captain as at best the best candidate available at the time. Prior to injury, Wood might have been the de-facto captain.

Your contention simply illustrates the sort of short-term thinking I've tried to highlight in another article.

The only reason he'd lose his captaincy is because of outrageous poor form and that would appear to be unlikely but not out of the question (the new season hasn't started you don't know). His good form is what has maintained the captaincy for him and so as such he is currently a definite starter. Lancaster has shown no particular loyalty to whomever is wearing the captains arm band so far and I hope it continues.

We'll never know as to whether Lancaster would have actually given the captaincy to Wood that was purely media speculation.

I agree that Robshaw is nailed on. I was never a huge fan of his and prior to his selection my preferred back row would've been 6. Croft 7. Wood 8. Morgan. He has come in and performed pretty well during the 6N, but for me he nailed his place down in the two Tests he played in SA. Bearing in mind he was at the end of an incredibly punishing season with Quins, sometimes being used in interesting ways, winning the Jeff and breaking into international rugby, he performed superbly well in a pack that was under supreme pressure. He really put the work in and for me is nailed on at 7.

That then addresses your point Portnoy about selecting the team first and Captain second. Whilst I agree that your need 23 form players in a test team, there is room for an iconic Captain to not be performing at the absolute pinnacle in every international match.

As far as media speculation re Wood goes SAM, he was picked by Lancs for the 6N photo shoot and the Telegraph etc... seem to have very good sources at the RFU. If he was injury free i'm certain he would've been captain.

Outside of Robshaw I can only really say Cole is nailed on at 3. By nailed on I mean far and away better than the next player in line. I would not say Hartley is nailed on, purely because his form has not been particularly good and whilst he has a 99% chance of starting, his place is vulnerable. Unlike Cole, who's replacement will only be getting bench time come the AI's even if he's playing out of his skin.

Nailed on at present / (Likely to start):

1. A Corbisiero - Marler has done well, but for me if he's fit he's the best LH available.
2. (D Hartley) - Could come under pressure during AI's if Youngs/Webber have a great start.
3. D Cole - PDJ nowhere near him, will Wilson step up from the Saxons?
4. (T Palmer) - Did well in SA, but form is patchy and Launchburry could make it his own.
5. (G Parling) - I was relatively pleased with him in SA, but underpowered. Lawes could get this spot but we'd need a lineout leader.
6. T Croft - Despite the marmite effect, Croft is nailed down if fit. He's a supreme operator. Haskell or Fearns next in line?
7. C Robshaw - Excellent in SA. Wood potentially next in line here if a good season he'll make the bench for AI's.
8. (T Waldrom) - Unfortunately Morgan had a poor tour but is the future. Lancaster will remain faithful to the starter though.
9. B Youngs - Again a supreme display in T2 and a proven class act. Care is great, but will only make the bench for me.
10. (T Flood) - Our best option of just 2 FH's in the EPS. God save us if Farrell starts. Room for Ford or Burns to force in here.
11. (B Foden) - Previously nailed on at FB, Lancs wants a better kicker there. He'll have to fight Sharples for this shirt though.
12. (B Barrit) - He's sure to start, but i'd like to see 36 kick on here.
13. M Tuilagi - Despite England's determination to make him as one dimensional as poss, he's nailed on in the centre.
14. C Ashton - Proven class finisher on the wing and no one else has made a serious case yet. J May or C Wade to step up?
15. (A Goode) - I think Goode is a really sensible choice here, but Brown and Foden will say otherwise. Not nailed by a long way.

Thus only Corbisiero, Cole, Croft, Robshaw, Youngs, Tuilagi and Ashton are really nailed on for me. A good basis on which to build a very good side. Some really good bench options in Fearns, Wood, Lawes, Ford, Care etc etc if only Lancaster could ever work out what the bench is for. We'll probably see a bench of players like Dowson, Turner-Hall and a recall for Stevens I suspect come the AI's!

Ashton in particular needs to be given a much less constrained role that Andy Farrell ever allowed him. As AF is back in the fold, presumably as defence coach, and maintains sway on the overall game-plan, then I'd say there's little point in picking Ashton as it would negate his ability to read the game and locate the point of attack in which to strike.

Portnoy wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:9 Youngs/Care who gets the nod will be decided on the finest of margins

+1 -I'd say Care, but i'm bias. He can be a slippery little bastage and quick on the initiative if he sees the other side napping.

You mean just like Youngs then Ali?

- I did say i was bias. In the England international picture though, this is a good conversation to debate!

formerly known as Sam wrote:. Lancaster has shown no particular loyalty to whomever is wearing the captains arm band so far and I hope it continues.

Remind me...which of his England captains has he dropped?

Portnoy...

The question would be as of this moment...which 7 would you pick over Robshaw...regardless of Captaincy. I really cant think of one. None of them are ready yet...

Ashton in particular needs to be given a much less constrained role that Andy Farrell ever allowed him. As AF is back in the fold, presumably as defence coach, and maintains sway on the overall game-plan, then I'd say there's little point in picking Ashton as it would negate his ability to read the game and locate the point of attack in which to strike

Whilst i would agree that coaching has been an issue in attack...i also question Lancasters role in this area...i think it is the rediculously uncreative axis of Owen Farrell, Barritt and Tuilagi, and lack of serious ball carrying forwards that has resulted in zero attacking flair...and as a result Ashton being annonymous.

I agree that Robshaw is probably the best at the moment, I don't necessarily agree that come the AIs it will be so. And as I say, the back row should be selected as an optimal unit and not by 'best' players. SCW was a wizard at that.

Secondly, Your point about SL sadly rings true. The 'Owen Farrell, Barritt and Tuilagi' axis rings very correct - but marginal improvements were detectable in the summer when some more creative combinations wee tried - and Catt was backs coach.

But overall I still maintain my point that AF is still a major concern as he's totally defensively-minded like he was at Sarries. I still reckon that we saw the best of Ashton when he was under MJ and his maligned coaching team.

Incidentally, Owen Farrell I think is (or could be) an exceptionally good player - if he could be coached out of his dad's way of playing.

But then, I'm rarely one to jump on the latest passing band-wagon.

ed] for what it's worth, if pushed I'd plump for something like
Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole
Lawes, Attwood
out of Croft, Crane, Wood, Robshaw
Youngs/Flood or Care/Cips (no mixing)
12 tba / Tuilagi
Ashton, tba, Foden (FB)

Portnoy, it must be a blue moon, as you and I are in agreement, Farrell could be an exceptionally good player, but needs to develop more than he is at Saracens.

The tools are are there. At a young age (2 seasons ago) he was displaying game management abilities beyond his years. He has a good pass on him, and a good boot. What has happened is that he has developed a default setting for how he plays, and sadly it is a limited gameplan which is set and requires little thinking or deviation. Being shunted between 10, 12 and 13 for Sarries has not helped either.

I genuinely believe that if he were to move clubs he could absolutely flourish and could spend the next 10 years vying with young Ford for the national jersey.

Then maybe Oz, let's hope that he can be coached out of his negative approach as he could be the missing 12 we need as 36 appears not to want the slot.

Out of interest Portnoy who do you see as 7 come the Ai's?

I think most England will be looking for a massive improvemnt in the offensive tactics ...and if not...another England managers position will be under serious threat.

I have been hugely critical of Owen Farrell (as i have been with Croft in the past but i praise him highly after the last 6n). I recognise that Farrell has his strengths...and is still a very young lad. But his attacking game plan has to be improved...and his desire to kick everything doesnt sit well with me...and playing 10 for England is not the place to learn these basics...they should be there already and perfected with England.

I hope he really can improve this side of his game...as he could be a very very strong player for England. I just worry...can you teach those skills in a player..that arent natural to them...

Portnoy wrote:Then maybe Oz, let's hope that he can be coached out of his negative approach as he could be the missing 12 we need as 36 appears not to want the slot.

Well from pre season at the Falcons jimmy Gopperth has ran more ball in three games that ive seen in the whole time hes been here...and you all know how i feel about him....

So if Gopperth can do it...maybe young owen has a chance...

That, I think, Geordie very much depends on the character of the man.

If he is in the mould of say Squeaky, I think that you could wait till kingdom come to remove the kick first, think later mentality.

However, if Owen were like Jonny, he'd do whatever you asked him too. Even to the extent (in my view) to the extent of playing the boring stuff he masterminds at Toulon.
------

I still can't think of a best #14. Probably because you rarely see one ball in hand for England these days...

Very true Portnoy...

With regards wingers....i rate Ashton very higly...i think he's a different type of winger...and with Flood has been hugely effective running his fantastic lines and support. Hopefully Sarries can change their game abit to accomodate the likes of Hodgson and Ashton...let Farrell learn abit from the excellent passing of Hodgson etc...

I want to see a confident Ashton running the lines for England we know he can...and that can split defences...