Is anyone actually nailed on to start for England in November?

First topic message reminder :

Here we are still in the 1st year of the Lancaster rein and 10(12) games played and a whole new season ahead of us free of world cup interference and with the Lions a prize to be aimed for.

However I think if Lancaster is really worth his salt he will have pressed the selection reset button and decided that not one player is a nailed on start. This actually is realistic and allows form and talent to fight for those shirts come November.

Come on England be strong and only select the very best.

Maybe a different tack tack should be taken on the road to 2015.
A the start of this season:
Front row forwards should currently be no older than 30(31 max)
Second rowers, 30
Back rows, 29
Half-backs, 28
Centres 28
Back three 27
?

kingelderfield wrote:Here we are still in the 1st year of the Lancaster rein and 10(12) games played and a whole new season ahead of us free of world cup interference and with the Lions a prize to be aimed for.

However I think if Lancaster is really worth his salt he will have pressed the selection reset button and decided that not one player is a nailed on start. This actually is realistic and allows form and talent to fight for those shirts come November.

Come on England be strong and only select the very best.

Trouble is kingelder, that SL has got to produce goods quick and early. If he doesn't and the RFU hang on and do their normal dithering, there will be no time left to replace him effectively.

Portnoy wrote:Maybe a different tack tack should be taken on the road to 2015.
A the start of this season:
Front row forwards should currently be no older than 30(31 max)
Second rowers, 30
Back rows, 29
Half-backs, 28
Centres 28
Back three 27
?

I dont actually agree with limiting on age. Simon Shaw was one of Englands stand out players at around 37. He would walk in to the current team when he was in that form and age.
Its about ability and game play.

If they are good enough they play. If they're not ready they shouldnt.

I truely believe though Lancaster is the best position that any England manager has been in for along time...and this is becuase there a load of seriously talented kids starting their 2nd seasons or first seasons in the Prem League. Ford, Burns, Daly, May, Wade, Lindsay, Launchbury...etc etc

If they dont take advantage we could lose another generation of players....

True GF, but there is a the opportunity to create a tremendous Saxons side ready (with the odd full bench/injury replacement for the full side) to be up and-running, revving and ready to go for 2016) - plus there will inevitably kids only sixteen or so now ready for the fray by then.

I feel that Wales' current emphasis on youth may lead to unforseen early burn-out by 2015.

If, by careful management, England manage to avoid such pitfalls, then by harnessing and developing emerging talent and allowing so far as possible them to become fully mature for the full rigours of international rugby, then a clear succession plan can be put in place.

Of course that means two things:
• Exceptions can always be made in exceptional cases
• A strong, influential RFU DoR should be sought and installed toute-de-suite

I would normally agree 100% with you...but i just think we are at a time when we litterally have no option.

The current mid 20s-30 year olds are simply not good enough. The result is if the kids are playing better...then they need to be brought in. Hopefully then we can start preparing properly after that with the talented kids coming througfh the saxons in future and being introduced in a settled side with strong game plan.

Frankly Geordie, if the current crop of youngsters from the age of 21+ (say 24+ for forwards) can't cope, the back-filling from the supply chain four years their junior, then the establishment of the concept will forever be put on hold.

I have an inkling that we are currently experiencing a burgeoning of talent from the Academies that could represent a new golden generation which if nurtured correctly, could be (within reason) perpetually regenerated.

Remember my proposed ages for the core England squad would be to ensure that none, in the normal course of events, be considered beyond their expected shelf life. One thing is for sure, I wouldn't want to be in the Irish position where key players (BOD/POC/Cullen etc.) will have to be replaced before 2015 with no realistic heirs apparent.

There's some merit in the idea of age guidelines but as someone mentioned above, there have been some exceptions where players were head and shoulders above the competition at an advanced age.

I guess if you nurture your talent carefully though, there should always be someone waiting in the wings and putting pressure on for the starting shirt, the academies are definitely starting to produce, but how they are handled at international level, through the age grades, Saxons etc. will be absolutely vital to ensuring enough continuity for the 1st XV.

We must live in hope.

I wouldn't say Tuilagi was nailed on at centre. His lack of passing is a serious problem, and his form at the end of last season was pretty ropey. I think he was reasonably close to being dropped come the 3rd Test.

If JJ (or Lowe) and 36 have good starts to the season and Tuilagi doesn't then I reckon he'll be out

Interesting article in the Telegraph saying that Owen Farrell basically agreed with Catt at the end of the SA tour that he needed to fundamentally rework his game - playing flatter and more heads up rugby. He needs to move beyond the Saracens style if he wants to play 10 for England long-term.

DaveM wrote:
Interesting article in the Telegraph saying that Owen Farrell basically agreed with Catt at the end of the SA tour that he needed to fundamentally rework his game - playing flatter and more heads up rugby. He needs to move beyond the Saracens style if he wants to play 10 for England long-term.

Dave, have you got a link for that, I'd be very interested in reading it?

Cheers

DaveM wrote:I wouldn't say Tuilagi was nailed on at centre. His lack of passing is a serious problem, and his form at the end of last season was pretty ropey. I think he was reasonably close to being dropped come the 3rd Test.

If JJ (or Lowe) and 36 have good starts to the season and Tuilagi doesn't then I reckon he'll be out

Interesting article in the Telegraph saying that Owen Farrell basically agreed with Catt at the end of the SA tour that he needed to fundamentally rework his game - playing flatter and more heads up rugby. He needs to move beyond the Saracens style if he wants to play 10 for England long-term.

He could have looked on any newspaper columns, rugby forum, club website forum or spoke to any reasonably knowledgeable rugby fan to have realised that...

I hope he does...because he could be very good...but he has a lot of work to do....

The quote is from Ackford's article post the SA tour:

"Owen Farrell is the man England hope will nail down the 10 shirt in the months and years to come but Farrell comes with baggage in that he has been unable to shake off the mechanistic, join-the-dots rugby favoured by his club Saracens.

Mike Catt, Egnland’s attack coach, has spent hours on the training field and in front of the laptop trying to take the shackles off Farrell and get him flatter to the gain line, head up, assessing options as they present themselves.

If Farrell has had any kind of breakthrough on this tour, and there were signs of progress yesterday, it is that England believe he has acknowledged the need for a seismic shift in approach.
A similar story unfolds for Manu Tuilagi, suckered into a selfish revenge mission when Jean de Villiers clattered him in the first Test. From that moment on, Tuilagi ignored his wider role in the team and careered after De Villiers in search of payback.

That’s not the appropriate response for a man England see as the answer to getting over the gain line. There are few alternatives. Matt Banahan, the Bath back with physical presence, is too soft, so England are resigned to working with Tuilagi on improving his distribution skills and getting him to understand that there is no ‘i’ in team.

Ben Morgan is another who is returning home with a big boot up the backside. Put bluntly, Morgan is not fit enough for Test rugby, following impressive ground-eating gallops with long periods of slothfulness.
Why Morgan hasn’t worked this out for himself is beyond me. A hamstring injury hasn’t helped his quest for more endurance, but he must have realised how much work he had to do at the end of the Six Nations in March."

Personally I think that's a positive step but i'm not sure he's going to be able to pick up what he needs from the odd session with Mike Catt. He needs some intensive training day in day out and the opportunity to demonstrate that on the pitch for his club. Something he just won't get.

Do we know if Mike Catt is even going to be retained by England yet? And when are we to hear of Matt Stevens' replacement?

Think Catt's been contracted to England now Chjw131.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9363985/Mike-Catt-set-to-join-Andy-Farrell-with-England.html

Thanks for that bluestone, but this is the telling remark:

"with Catt to focus on attack, if a deal can be agreed on his return from a family holiday."

That was 29th June, and we haven't heard anything since.

Hmmmm.....I'm guessing arrangements were reached, since no word of him being sacked have emerged!

How good is Mike Catts coaching?

I'm not sure.

But imo on the face of it, it couldn't be worse than AF.

Well - outside of a sleep disorder clinic specialising in insomnia.

AH!!!!

I can't believe they've stuck with Catt! We must have one of the most inexperienced and in my mind poor coaching teams around now.

I really hoped that the RFU and Lancaster would actually hunt down an experienced attack coach from either the SH or one of the big teams in the North but instead we've gone for a man who basically spent his coaching career wrecking the job our previous attack coach did at London Irish.

I worry we've gone for well known names and well known players over talented coaches and this is going to bite us in the arse big time.

Seriously un impressed with this now.

Well think of it this way yappy,

In the 6Ns we had AF as SL's sole backs coach where the extent of his enterprise was for us to rejoice briefly when we crossed into the opponent's 22 only to be continually have them dashed by the paucity of the game plan thinking to exploit any creative advantage - because that was not the players were drilled to do.

My Cat's not bad (not the best) but better than Farrell,

True true, still depressing though.

Robbie Deans may be free soon though...

Well After Week one...did any potential England players impress you?

Certainly the Wasps guys have put a marker down..Haskell, Wade and Launchbury.

How about Mike Brown v Ben Foden v Alex Goode for FB.

Anyone else impress you?

Geordie you've just inspired me to start a separate thread on the Int board on players who put their hand up this weekend!!

Check it out and slag it off! (If you don't agree)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well After Week one...did any potential England players impress you?

Certainly the Wasps guys have put a marker down..Haskell, Wade and Launchbury.

How about Mike Brown v Ben Foden v Alex Goode for FB.

Anyone else impress you?

Play all 3- Foden on Wing, Brown at the back and Goode on the bench covering 10

Apparently Lirish are being dicks about getting compensation for your Catt http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/169388.html thats hwy hes not been announced yet

Hhmmm has Catt really earned much from the RFU yet? Cut our losses and get a better coach now I say.

For me the only nailed on starter is Cole. Even though we can guess how Lancaster is likely to go in the other positions (e.g. I can't see him changing the captain) all of them at least have realistic contenders that you could make a case for.