French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

by BigTrevsbigmac Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:43 am

First topic message reminder :

From the Grauniad,,

The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

by Jenifer McLadyboy Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:35 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Comparing rugby to association football is like comparing apples and oranges though, they are very different. The amounts of money in the two games are vastly different, and as a result there would not be the same financial gap between the top and bottom teams.

Comparing the Rabo to the AP and Top 14 is also Apples and Oranges sadly.

I can see both sides of this one.

Personally I don't like reducing the teams to 20 OR basing it on Leagues rather than unions. The Celtic league was set up to give stronger league representation to the respective 3 (now 4) countries teams who participated in the HC.

The fact that it has grown so much in it's short life to become a comp that can supply the top European sides is a good thing in my book.

Perhaps the English and French have a point that it is time to stop helping out other Unions financially on a club level when some of them have already caught up in standards.

Maybe they should make it harder for Irish sides?

by beshocked Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:45 pm

Brendan Connacht don't deserve to be in the HC because they are a weak team. They have a poor record in all European competitions. They find it difficult enough in the Amlin let alone the HC.

Welshmushroom hanging on the coat tails of Leinster,Munster and Ulster again? The Welsh,Italians and Scottish don't deserve much of a share of the pot. They are not as big a draw.

Jenifer Biarritz won the challenge cup and did hammer the Pro12 champs in the HC.

Kingshu I disagree. I think Munster-Saracens could go either way. Same with Cardiff-LI. Also I think the Chiefs are very underrated.

Duigers the Chiefs do have a tougher group than Connacht or are you blind?

Chiefs came 5th in the AP, had a respectable Amlin campaign. Connacht came 8th in the Pro12, only 1 win in the HC.

Wow Connacht got to one Amlin semi final - have you seen who they had to play? Pretty much all teams near the bottom of their respective tables.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:48 pm

Beshocked coming out with the usual subjective BS he is famous for. If you cant make an intelligent point, dont bother.

Connacht are a weak team? So are Chiefs and Bath. Remember what happened to Bath in Dublin?

I acknowledged that Chiefs have a tougher group than Connacht. I also said that Connachts last HEC outing was against the AP Champs, who they beat and Toulouse.

What are you illiterate??

by HammerofThunor Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:50 pm

So nothing new? Just the same Poopie from the last few months being regurgitated.

Negotiations are supposed to be in September. Why don't we wait and see what happens? There's not a lot we can do about it anyway.

I'm hoping the English and French walk away, just to ensure this doesn't happen again in a few more years.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:51 pm

[/quote]They have a poor record in all European competitions.[quote]

So, if reaching a SF in the Amlin and beating the mighty AP Champs is a poor record, how about the Chief's record??

What of note have they dont but finish 6th in the worst pro league in Europe (apart from Russia)?

What have they done of note?

Chiefs are an Amlin team at best. They are a weak team. It's their level.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:52 pm

I'm hoping the English and French walk away

Will they take their ball with them as well?

by red_stag Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:54 pm

Duigers you are acting like a strange strange lad. Why go out of your way to be so contrary.

by HammerofThunor Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Duigers wrote:
I'm hoping the English and French walk away

Will they take their ball with them as well?

It's not their ball so no.

by **Biltong** Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Duigers wrote:Beshocked coming out with the usual subjective BS he is famous for. If you cant make an intelligent point, dont bother.

Connacht are a weak team? So are Chiefs and Bath. Remember what happened to Bath in Dublin?

I acknowledged that Chiefs have a tougher group than Connacht. I also said that Connachts last HEC outing was against the AP Champs, who they beat and Toulouse.

What are you illiterate??

Duigers, personal attacks can only get you in trouble. Please behave.

by formerly known as Sam Thu Aug 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Couple of things.

1) all tv revenue generated by the countries is put into the pot and then split between the participating clubs. Despite the French and English tv deals being far bigger the Rabo teams get more places and so a larger proportion of the overall cash.

2) if the AP and French teams set up a different competition then it is likely the Rabo teams will suffer big time. The Super 15 teams have an extremely busy season as it is and will not want more travel nor will the small revenues available from the Rabo countries tempt them. Their only hope for a new competition will be tempting the 2nd tier European teams in and that will be a poor substitute.

3) if the Rabo teams ditch their pride they'll keep the competition, gain a more competitive and therefore more marketable Rabo and the remaining 6 teams from th Rabo will come into the Amlin which will be actually a more viable competition with more worthwhile teams.

by beshocked Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:01 pm

Duigers keep milking the win vs Quins. It's probably Connacht's biggest win in their history. Forget that Quins had beaten them 3 times in a row before that.
If you want to see Quins as such a big scalp by all means. I personally don't. Having seen my side beat them 5 out of the last 6 occasions it's not a big thing.

No doubt Quins are a good side but I would take more pride in beating sides such as Leicester,Leinster,Clermont,Toulouse, Ospreys, Saracens,Munster if I were you etc.

Oh also you couldn't beat Gloucester.

Chiefs came 5th in the AP.

Bath aren't in the HC. They are irrelevant to this topic.

Amlin semi - you keep banging on about it. You make it out as if it's some incredible achievement. It's not. I suppose it would be for a side which has such low expectations.

by maestegmafia Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:04 pm

Can't see much decided by the RFU until they have decided whether or not they want to keep promotion and Relegation in the Premiership.

The RFU have set a deadline of September to finalise the rules that will govern whether a club can gain promotion to the top flight.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8008025,00.html

If the pinacle of English club rugby was ring fenced they would be no different to the Irish, Scotish and Welsh regions and provinces leaving only the French as an exception.

by HammerofThunor Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:08 pm

The only difference would be qualification for the HEC. Currently only half of the English league qualify and 10 out of 12 of the RABO league qualify. Doesn't make a massive deal to the top teams other than all of the middle of the road teams (usually 5th or 6th to 10th) are fighting for the last couple of spots.

by Kingshu Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:10 pm

[quote="beshocked"]Brendan Connacht don't deserve to be in the HC because they are a weak team. They have a poor record in all European competitions. They find it difficult enough in the Amlin let alone the HC.

Welshmushroom hanging on the coat tails of Leinster,Munster and Ulster again? The Welsh,Italians and Scottish don't deserve much of a share of the pot. They are not as big a draw.

Jenifer Biarritz won the challenge cup and did hammer the Pro12 champs in the HC.

Kingshu I disagree. I think Munster-Saracens could go either way. Same with Cardiff-LI. Also I think the Chiefs are very underrated.

Duigers the Chiefs do have a tougher group than Connacht or are you blind?

Chiefs came 5th in the AP, had a respectable Amlin campaign. Connacht came 8th in the Pro12, only 1 win in the HC.

Wow Connacht got to one Amlin semi final - have you seen who they had to play? Pretty much all teams near the bottom of their respective tables.[/quote]

If you looked into it you'd see Semi-finalists: 2003–04, 2004–05 & 2009–10 and a number of quater finals as well.

Just because a team doesn't have a good record in Hcup doesn't mean it shouldn't ever get in it, how else do you except them to get a good record in it if they aren't there?

by beshocked Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:12 pm

I actually have nothing against Connacht. I just want to see them competing in a competition which they could have a chance of doing well in.

When my side only won 1 game in the HC I was annoyed and disappointed, Connacht fans should be disappointed with their HC campaign.

It should be easier this year for Connacht but realistically 3 wins is probably the best they can do.

Exeter qualified for the HC on merit by finishing 5th in the AP.It is likely they will struggle but they are a side in development (isn't this their 3rd season in the AP?)

by beshocked Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:19 pm

[quote="Kingshu"]

beshocked wrote:Brendan Connacht don't deserve to be in the HC because they are a weak team. They have a poor record in all European competitions. They find it difficult enough in the Amlin let alone the HC.

Welshmushroom hanging on the coat tails of Leinster,Munster and Ulster again? The Welsh,Italians and Scottish don't deserve much of a share of the pot. They are not as big a draw.

Jenifer Biarritz won the challenge cup and did hammer the Pro12 champs in the HC.

Kingshu I disagree. I think Munster-Saracens could go either way. Same with Cardiff-LI. Also I think the Chiefs are very underrated.

Duigers the Chiefs do have a tougher group than Connacht or are you blind?

Chiefs came 5th in the AP, had a respectable Amlin campaign. Connacht came 8th in the Pro12, only 1 win in the HC.

Wow Connacht got to one Amlin semi final - have you seen who they had to play? Pretty much all teams near the bottom of their respective tables.[/quote]

If you looked into it you'd see Semi-finalists: 2003–04, 2004–05 & 2009–10 and a number of quater finals as well.

Just because a team doesn't have a good record in Hcup doesn't mean it shouldn't ever get in it, how else do you except them to get a good record in it if they aren't there?

Their record in the Amlin is about 50% win-loss which is very poor. Seeing as you have the likes of Romanian and Spanish sides where you can rack up easy bonus point wins!

If they earn HC qualification by merit of their own achievements then fair enough. Many of us English fans don't like it when Celtic clubs hang onto the coat tails of Munster,Ulster and Leinster.

Connacht are the team who have done virtually nothing of note - little impact in Europe or in the Pro12. Edinburgh and Glasgow do get criticised but at least one is a HC semi finalist and the other came 3rd in the Pro12.

Have Connacht ever come 6th in the Pro12? I don't think they have.

by Welshmushroom Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:39 pm

beshocked wrote:Welshmushroom hanging on the coat tails of Leinster,Munster and Ulster again? The Welsh,Italians and Scottish don't deserve much of a share of the pot. They are not as big a draw.

Not at all. I've come out and said Welsh Rugby hasnt been good enough to win a HC, yet. That said regardless of your attidue towards us, Ospreys are everybit as good as anything you have in the Aviva. Ask Leinster.

Truth is, its unbelievably hard to win the HC. Margins are very small with a great standard of teams in it compared to say 5-7 years ago. But to suggest that because of the lack of success in one tournament makes us lesser sides is going a bit far. And as a Saracens fan you should know better than anyone that crowd attendances and wether a side is quality are two different things, given your side struggles to play in front of 5-6K crowds as well.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:40 pm

Biltong- PM'd.

Ta.

by Irish Londoner Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:45 pm

Re the football examples - someone said Germany has had more winners than other major European leagues, interestingly the Bundesliga clubs have a very different ownership and management model than the rest, with supporter involvment, most stadiums in public ownership, player recruitment from their own academy system, clubs cannot be bought and sold as oligarch/shiek/mafiaosi/politicians playthings or ego trips. Funny how that makes for a more competitive league than England/Italy/Spain.

Re the HEC issue, a compromise will surely be reached however as a left field idea how about a competition featuring everyone from all three leagues and then splitting into a Cup (HEC) and Plate (Amlin) format.
Groups could be seeded based on previous year's performance/domestic league placings and the split determined after the group stage - would turn up a few shocks whilst guaranteeing games for everyone.
38 teams plus a representative side from Spain and Russia to make 40 in all.
10 groups of four - top two in HEC bottom two into Amlin.
Each cup - 4 groups of 5 - top two quarters - last four - final.
Total games per team 6+8+3 = 17 games if you get to the final.
Everyone gets European rugby and the cream rises to the top and of course if you're minded to concentrate on matters domestic then you can field weakened teams at any point you wish.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:49 pm

Beshocked I am a Leinster fan/ season ticket holder for the last number of years (since I returned home from living abroad).

The problem I have with your arguments is that you are clearly saying that Connacht shouldn't be in the HEC because they are not good enough, when there are English teams frankly not up to scratch at all.

The Bath reference is valid because when they got humped in Landsdown Rd, they were in the HEC.

Oh and did I mention that Connacht beat Quinns (AP Champs)? But again, it was windy that day so....

You go on to say that Connacht might get 3 wins in the HEC, but still are not worthy of a place.

Well, I repeat, lets see how many English clubs reach the quarters this year because if the current trend continues, that number will be a big fat zero.

Personally I have nothing against you (I dont know you), but your repeating that Connacht are not good enough to grace a HEC field is not only wrong, but it's rather ignorant, given the facts at hand.

by Guest Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:08 pm

If Connacht are to be in the HC, they should have to prove that their good enough.

The HC is supposed to be the top-level club competition in Europe. Requiring teams to finish in the top six of their respective leagues to qualify ensures that only the best teams get in and ensures that they can compete fairly. Letting in teams by default, like Connacht as an example, reduces the value of the competition.

I'm not saying that Connacht shouldn't be allowed in the HC just because they're Connacht. If they play well enough over a season to finish in the top 6, or 7th if a team above them has already qualified by winning the HC/AC the year before, then they should be welcomed in. Whether a team plays in the HC or not should be determined by their performances on the pitch, and that applies to Connacht, Chiefs and every other team in the Premiership, Pro-12 nd top-14.

by beshocked Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:12 pm

Duigers

you say the English teams aren't up to scratch. Please name them.

Have you seen Bath's overall record in Europe? Vastly superior to that of Connacht and they've won the HC.

Bath are not in the HC in the 2012/13 because they weren't good enough.

The impression I get from you is that 1 win vs Quins means Connacht are worthy to be in the HC. Upsets happen.

Connacht aren't good enough to grace the HC field.

Please name the sides which you think are worse than Connacht taking part in the HC (2012-13).

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:20 pm

mawhis wrote:If Connacht are to be in the HC, they should have to prove that their good enough.

The HC is supposed to be the top-level club competition in Europe. Requiring teams to finish in the top six of their respective leagues to qualify ensures that only the best teams get in and ensures that they can compete fairly. Letting in teams by default, like Connacht as an example, reduces the value of the competition.
I'm not saying that Connacht shouldn't be allowed in the HC just because they're Connacht. If they play well enough over a season to finish in the top 6, or 7th if a team above them has already qualified by winning the HC/AC the year before, then they should be welcomed in. Whether a team plays in the HC or not should be determined by their performances on the pitch, and that applies to Connacht, Chiefs and every other team in the Premiership, Pro-12 nd top-14.

That ain't true. As things stand, there are a few teams that automatically qualified that finished in the Rabo lower than Connacht and even below the Dragons who are in the amlin (Treviso, Edinburgh, Zebre).

The way it is now if the four Irish Provinces finished 1-4 in the rabo, and the four welsh finished 5-8, the sides that would be entered into the HEC (assuming that the HEC/Amlin winners were English/French) would have finished 1-3 (3 Irish), 5-7 (3 Welsh), 8-12 (2 Scottish, 2 Italian) in the Rabo, which means that automatically there would be lesser sides entered. This issue is a real awkward one to resolve, as the HEC slots are alocated to nations, and not to leagues.

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:21 pm

Chiefs... as the able will confirm come January Smile

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:22 pm

beshocked wrote:Duigers

you say the English teams aren't up to scratch. Please name them.

Have you seen Bath's overall record in Europe? Vastly superior to that of Connacht and they've won the HC.

Bath are not in the HC in the 2012/13 because they weren't good enough.

The impression I get from you is that 1 win vs Quins means Connacht are worthy to be in the HC. Upsets happen.

Connacht aren't good enough to grace the HC field.

Please name the sides which you think are worse than Connacht taking part in the HC (2012-13).

Aironi, Treviso, Edinburgh (Well they all finished below Connacht in the Rabo).

by maestegmafia Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:25 pm

I think that from a fans point of view we would rather see the best non international teams in europe competing for the prize of top non international European team.

I would rather see the fans happy by having the best, toughest, competition than please the few club owners who want a larger income at the expense of what is a fantastic competition.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rabbo league qualification being about qualification by league standings of the previous season.

But this competition is run by the national unions pf six nations and not by their teams representatives.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Duigers wrote:Chiefs... as the able will confirm come January

Does that mean you are saying that Connacht will be beating Leinster this season, or just not going to lose by as much?

by Kingshu Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Beshocked

I don't know why you pick on Connacht, qualifing because Leinster won it, do you have a problem when an English club wins it and gets and extra team entry? or do you not think that the winning team should gain an extra entry spot for its countrys teams.

You can stop picking on Connacht and argue about the rule, (or is it just when Irish teams win you have an issue)?

Also you have a problem with Connacht not qualifing on Merit, How many teams could finish above Leinster, Munster or Ulster? Exeter couldn't for sure.

Out of all the teams that can qualify for the H-cup, I recon that Connacht have the hardest task. So why begrudge them entry when an Irish team wins it?

Also I've always said Connacht would have an easier time qualifing for the H-Cup if they were in the English prem, and finish 6, than finishing above either Munster, Ulster or Leinster.

by Brendan Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:27 pm

Beshocked to be fair Connacht are the one team that have the hardest of any team to get into the HC which you have to take into account.

09-10 loss a semi final to moneybags toulon.
10-11 came second to Quinns who ended up winning it
11-12 won once and gave up no TBPs which many thought they would give up 4.
12-13 should get 3 wins and push for second.

I think that any team that makes it deserves to be there except maybe Zebre. I think Cheifs will find it hard but glad to see them there. Many teams are HC fillers with only about 10 teams are really "any good" and that could win it.

by bathmad Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:44 pm

Duigers wrote:Beshocked coming out with the usual subjective BS he is famous for. If you cant make an intelligent point, dont bother.

Connacht are a weak team? So are Chiefs and Bath. Remember what happened to Bath in Dublin?
I acknowledged that Chiefs have a tougher group than Connacht. I also said that Connachts last HEC outing was against the AP Champs, who they beat and Toulouse.

What are you illiterate??

Much the same as what happened to Ulster at Twickenham!!

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:48 pm

...yeah Leinster are currently a pretty good side. It's a privilege to watch them at the RDS..

by **rodders** Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:48 pm

Ah come one now, the Heino final was a one score game for 70 odd minutes...Leinstuuur only pulled away late on. Certainly it was a very competitive game for most of it. Bath were taken to the cleaners which is a bit different.

I would say that though... Whistle

by Jimpy Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:52 pm

Duigers wrote:Chiefs... as the able will confirm come January

That's you counted out then.

sorry, I couldn't resist that ;-)

by geoff998rugby Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:55 pm

my prediction:

20 clubs
6 French
6 English
8 Rabo - with a guaranteed of at least 1 from each of the 4 countries.
No extra places for countries./teams winning the HC or the Amlin

by Duigers Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:55 pm

Damn... always forgetting my T's..... Sad

by formerly known as Sam Thu Aug 23, 2012 2:58 pm

Can't see much decided by the RFU until they have decided whether or not they want to keep promotion and Relegation in the Premiership.

The RFU have set a deadline of September to finalise the rules that will govern whether a club can gain promotion to the top flight.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_8008025,00.html

If the pinacle of English club rugby was ring fenced they would be no different to the Irish, Scotish and Welsh regions and provinces leaving only the French as an exception.

Maes they won't ring fence, they just need to re-address the rules they've laid down because of the London Welsh court case.

Ah come one now, the Heino final was a one score game for 70 odd minutes...Leinstuuur only pulled away late on. Certainly it was a very competitive game for most of it

Sorry Rodders but Ulster were never in that final, Leinster took control early doors and never let go. At 14-6 Leinster were 8 points up and Ulster had to chase the game which is exactly where they did not need to be, the penalty try just after half time was almost the nail in the coffin.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:00 pm

geoff - that is probably how it will end up. Personally I would rather see 16 sides (2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian, 4 French, 4 English, HEC Winners Nation Gets 1 extra slot, Amlin Cup Winner Nation Gets 1 Extra slot) and the Amlin ger reduce too (1 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian, 4 French, 4 English, 2 Spanish, 2 Romanian). Therefore no side knows they are certain to play in the HEC, or even that they are certain to play in any of the european competitions. This will also make the AMlin more cmpetitive.

by Kingshu Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:04 pm

I wonder what would happen if the Celtic Nations said, ok, 8 Rabo teams 6 English and 6 French, but we also want the Top 14 and Prem to be ringfenced no relegation or promoton. So we don't have to listen to that excuse if Rabo teams keep doing well, its because there is no relegration in the league, so you's ringfence now so you can't complain?

by emack2 Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:10 pm

Smacks of sour grapes,IF the English/French sides won as regularly as the Irish then it has credibility.This way they seem like sour losers,bit like Aus/Sa refusing to play the 3Ns because the ABs have won most titles.

by **rodders** Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:15 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Ah come one now, the Heino final was a one score game for 70 odd minutes...Leinstuuur only pulled away late on. Certainly it was a very competitive game for most of it

Sorry Rodders but Ulster were never in that final, Leinster took control early doors and never let go. At 14-6 Leinster were 8 points up and Ulster had to chase the game which is exactly where they did not need to be, the penalty try just after half time was almost the nail in the coffin.

I'm not disputing that Leinster were always in control but the scoreline does not reflect that for 70 minutes or so the game could have gone either way, Ulster were only ever a score or so behind up until late in the game and just before Terblanche got binned. Many facets of the game were fairly closely contested and Ulster did have sustained periods of pressure.

Leinster were the better side, considerably so, but I dispute the comparison with the Bath game which wasn't a contest by any stretch of the imagination.

by Thomond Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Leinster were on top but Ulster were still in it for the majority of the game, last 15 minutes or so didn't reflect that the 2 teams were relatively close ofr a lot of it. Leisnter v Bath, Bath were never in it.

by **rodders** Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:18 pm

Thank you Thomond, that is my point sir.

by Kingshu Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:25 pm

We've talked about this before,
the H cup is made up of 6 unions, and only 2 want the change, can they force it through.

And to set up an Anglo-French cup, do they not need to get permission from the IRB, or European Rugby Cup which the Celtic nations would have more votes on.

If England, France did set up a competation without saction, then their world cup and 6 nations pertition could be threatened.

by Guest Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:30 pm

Kingshu wrote:We've talked about this before,
the H cup is made up of 6 unions, and only 2 want the change, can they force it through.

And to set up an Anglo-French cup, do they not need to get permission from the IRB, or European Rugby Cup which the Celtic nations would have more votes on.

If England, France did set up a competation without saction, then their world cup and 6 nations pertition could be threatened.

Are you sure about that last bit? it doesn't sound particularly likely.

ERC is just a body set up to oversee the HC and the Amlin. If England and France withdrew it would essentially cease to exist. The Six Nations and World Cup are entirely separate.

by Kingshu Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:40 pm

I kind of imagined it set up along same lines as UEFA, FIFA.
Could be wrong, but Celtic Nations do then have the option of setting up a 4 Nations, or even better change to southern Hemp rugby calander and create a 8 nations.

Not saying they should do any of this but if the English and French are sabre rattleing, then the Celtic nations can Rattle as well.

Honestly maybe pretend to be looking into southern Hemp rugby calander, and joining Super XV, that would put them in a stronger bargaining position, and this is all that anyones doing at present.

An OZ/NZ conference, SA/ARG and Celtic league, top 4 from each play off for a cup and 2nd 4 play off for a shield?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:40 pm

Kingshu wrote:We've talked about this before,
1) the H cup is made up of 6 unions, and only 2 want the change, can they force it through.

2)And to set up an Anglo-French cup, do they not need to get permission from the IRB, or European Rugby Cup which the Celtic nations would have more votes on.

3)If England, France did set up a competation without saction, then their world cup and 6 nations pertition could be threatened.

1 - they can't force it through. But they can leave if they're not happy. And they appear to believe that
(a) an HEC without England and France will be much less of a draw in terms of tv rights, as it would effectively become a Pro12 cup; and
(b) they can flog the tv rights for an Anglo French Cup for more money (on a per-club basis) than those clubs make off HEC participation

2 - not as far as I know

3 - the Pro12 nations could threaten to pull the pin on the 6N. But there's no way the SANZAR nations would vote to kick England and France out of the RWC.

by maestegmafia Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:44 pm

I think that from a fans point of view we would rather see the best non international teams in europe competing for the prize of top non international European team.

I would rather see the fans happy by having the best, toughest, competition than please the few club owners who want a larger income at the expense of what is a fantastic competition.

I wouldn't mind seeing Rabbo league qualification being about qualification by league standings of the previous season.

But this competition is run by the national unions pf six nations and not by their teams representatives.

by Welshmushroom Thu Aug 23, 2012 3:52 pm

My understanding is any new additions still need to be rubber stamped by the respective Unions. I've no doubt though this would just be a formality in English and French cases as their Unions do not control the clubs.

The rule in the current HC says no participating says no other cross border tournaments are allowed with 4 or more nations in it. I remember this as special dispensation was required to allow the Italians to join the Rabbo league. But as Pete pointed out as they are pulling the plug on the HC no other aggreement would stop them setting up a Anglo French tournament.

by Guest Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:02 pm

Still seems to be some hysteria over these proposals. The clubs are commercial operations - this is about money. They tried last time the contract came up and backed down, this time they appear to be serious.
Some appear to conveniently forget that it was the French and English clubs who had an international league imposed on them when creating a European competition. If some Unions choose to abandon their domestic leagues, then they can hardly dictate terms based on national representation, often using two teams packed with internationals. They having simply given that up regardless of votes.

Standards only ever improve bottom up and strengthening the Amblin and creating third tier, together with a simpler ranking and two periods of pool games rather than three are being lost on this focus around a bun fight over representation.

You don't hear English clubs complain about missing out on HC despite the financial implications which don't apply elsewhere. Hopefully Bath will have less injuries this season.Only one English club has qualified over the last five years - Tigers (sadly). The R12 is different as we are constantly told and has a different mindset when it comes to the HC.

I went to the Edinburgh Toulouse game where the french side had an entire backline missing through injury. Edinburgh deservedly won with an early try and some dogged defence. Amazingly they had no-one missing from their squad and that was the difference.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:05 pm

Are the english clubs making big profits? Can they afford to not have the money coming from the HC?

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