French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

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From the Grauniad,,


The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

Which is all fine, but the facts are:

- The HEC exists because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues.
- The French and English leagues bring in most of the money
- The French and the English leagues are quite legitimately (because then HEC is a voluntary agreement) saying they no longer want to continue with the current arrangement.
- Something will have to be sorted. The fall back position for the French and English clubs would probably leave them better off than the Celtic leaguie clubs.
- Therefore there will be a settlement, and it will favour the French and English clubs. If there isn't then some of the Rabo clubs/regions are in terrible trouble.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
I see it a little differently;

The French want more money by having more league games and less HC games per team, plus more French teams in (and better supported opposition). The English just want more teams in.

I don't think the English want more teams in - they are happy with 6. What they don't want is to be competing with sides who don't have to worry about their participation in next year's tournament.

DaveM wrote:Which is all fine, but the facts are:

- The HEC exists because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues.
- The French and English leagues bring in most of the money
- The French and the English leagues are quite legitimately (because then HEC is a voluntary agreement) saying they no longer want to continue with the current arrangement.
- Something will have to be sorted. The fall back position for the French and English clubs would probably leave them better off than the Celtic leaguie clubs.
- Therefore there will be a settlement, and it will favour the French and English clubs. If there isn't then some of the Rabo clubs/regions are in terrible trouble.

But i thought that only 3 or 4 english clubs are making a profit as it is? So how would the english clubs be better off ?

DaveM wrote:Which is all fine, but the facts are:

- The HEC exists because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues.
- The French and English leagues bring in most of the money
- The French and the English leagues are quite legitimately (because then HEC is a voluntary agreement) saying they no longer want to continue with the current arrangement.
- Something will have to be sorted. The fall back position for the French and English clubs would probably leave them better off than the Celtic leaguie clubs.
- Therefore there will be a settlement, and it will favour the French and English clubs. If there isn't then some of the Rabo clubs/regions are in terrible trouble.

The HEC does not exist because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues. That's one of the key points. From Wiki: "The Heineken Cup was launched in the summer of 1995 on the initiative of the then Five Nations Committee to provide a new level of professional cross border competition. Twelve sides representing Ireland, Wales, Italy, Romania and France competed in four pools of three with the group winners going directly into the semi-finals. English and Scottish teams did not take part in the inaugural competition."

Italy have been involved from the very outset - they were not part of the Celtic League, since they had their own comp - Super 10.

It would be nice to see the French and English try to work on suggestions for improvement of the competition that made more profit for everyone rather than just themselves.

"In 10 years of the Heineken Cup, only once has an English or French team not won it. The Celts are profiting from us and that is unacceptable. We could boycott the Heineken Cup and our clubs would not lose money. We could do without it."

Serge Blanco, then President of the French league in March 2006.

"The talks will begin on September 18 when the French clubs will ask for certain changes to the organisation and schedule of the competition. This is a platform to negotiate, it's not about exerting pressure for a boycott or forming a new competition.

We must give negotiation a chance because the competition is more interesting with the Celts involved. We expect to find a common understanding with all the stakeholders. If the negotiations fail, we will see what our alternative options are.

What's important for us is that these negotiations are completed by the end of autumn. This schedule is very important for us - we must have something agreed by October or November.

If we don't we'll have to look at how the nine dates set aside for European competition can be used in other ways.

The Amlin Challenge Cup must have teams from all stakeholders because at the moment it is a useless competition just concerning English and French clubs.

We want a decent schedule to the season whereby European competition will be finished by the end of April.

We also believe it would be interesting - even for the Celts - if the RaboDirect teams have to qualify like the English and French clubs do. We believe that would give more momentum to their competition."

Patrick Wolff, Vice president of the French National Rugby League - Aug 2012.

"We are dismayed and frustrated at the position that has been taken by Premier Rugby. This is a process that is laid down as part of the accord agreed in 2007. It's not a bolt out of the blue.

The current qualification process was agreed by ERC's shareholders as part of the 2007 accord. This current process is expected and the way it should be.

We welcome a full review of the tournament and we believe that at the end of the consultation process, European rugby will emerge stronger. All of our shareholders have said they want to see European rugby thrive and have agreed this consultation process. Our meeting on September 18 in Dublin is the second step in the process."

" ERC spokesman Mark Jones, August 2012

LeinsterFan4life wrote:But i thought that only 3 or 4 english clubs are making a profit as it is? So how would the english clubs be better off ?

I don't think the number of English clubs currently making a profit is relevant to whether they'd be better off in a two way competition. I'd expect them to be better off (than the Rabo clubs, and possibly than they are now) because the French and English markets would be more attractive to TV and sponsors than a Rabo cup, and the revenue they earn would only have to be split two ways.

Pot Hale wrote:
The HEC does not exist because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues. That's one of the key points. From Wiki: "The Heineken Cup was launched in the summer of 1995 on the initiative of the then Five Nations Committee to provide a new level of professional cross border competition. Twelve sides representing Ireland, Wales, Italy, Romania and France competed in four pools of three with the group winners going directly into the semi-finals. English and Scottish teams did not take part in the inaugural competition."

Whatever the history, the competition only exists because the English, French and Rabo clubs are all happy to participate. This is no longer the case, and the agreement says the French and English can leave if they want to.

DaveM wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
The HEC does not exist because of an agreement between the French, English and Celtic leagues. That's one of the key points. From Wiki: "The Heineken Cup was launched in the summer of 1995 on the initiative of the then Five Nations Committee to provide a new level of professional cross border competition. Twelve sides representing Ireland, Wales, Italy, Romania and France competed in four pools of three with the group winners going directly into the semi-finals. English and Scottish teams did not take part in the inaugural competition."

Whatever the history, the competition only exists because the English, French and Rabo clubs are all happy to participate. This is no longer the case, and the agreement says the French and English can leave if they want to.

The agreement is an agreement on how to run the competition for a period of time. If there is no agreement, there is no competition. The Pro 12 countries can also choose to not agree either. I doubt very much that the Pro12 clubs will seek to continue the status quo of the current agreement. They will want changes too. They just aren't making them public, unlike the English and French.

Reducing to 20 teams forces the issue of who doesn't get to qualify. This could be negotiated to be 5 teams each from AP and T14 and 8 from Pro 12, thereby reducing the automatic country spots in exchange for a reduction in number of automatic spots for AP and T14.

It also concentrates the competition and would likely help the French league's objective who want the Cup finished in April.

The 8 spots for the Pro12 clubs could then be looked at in a number of ways, but the route chosen would be a decision ONLY for the Pro 12 clubs to decide as long as it created greater competition for places.

a ) Qualification for the Top 8 - whoever gets in, goes through. [Most competitive and removes automatic spots.]
b )Each country's two highest placed club goes through. This would obviously favour Scotland and Italy the most. [Less competitive but remaining more meritocratic.]
c) Change the automatic allocations to 2 clubs for Ireland and Wales, and 1 each for Scotland and Italy, based on placing. The remaining 4 places based on how other teams place. More competitive but still guaranteeing participation by each country.

Thus if the Pro 12 finished

1. Ospreys
2. Munster
3. Ulster
4. Edinburgh
5. Dragons
6. Leinster
7. Glasgow
8. Cardiff
9. Treviso
10. Zebre
11. Connacht
12. Scarlets

a). Top 8 qualify
b) Munster, Ulster (Irl), Ospreys, Dragons (Wal), Edinburgh and Glasgow (Sco) and Treviso/Zebre (Ita)
c) Munster, Ulster, Leinster (Irl), Osprey, Dragons, (Wal) Edinburgh and Glasgow (Sco) Treviso (Ita).

Why so many French and English teams...?

Shouldn't Ireland be rewarded more than France and England, as they are more successful?

maestegmafia wrote:Why so many French and English teams...?

Shouldn't Ireland be rewarded more than France and England, as they are more successful?

As you state in your poll post both England & Ireland teams have won it 6 times a piece.

maestegmafia wrote:Why so many French and English teams...?

Shouldn't Ireland be rewarded more than France and England, as they are more successful?

So, no Welsh regions should be allowed in then?

Anyway, as stated above, England and Ireland sides have won it the same number of times closely followed by the French.

Blimey, maesteg you'll used anything (including Ireland on this occasion to have a pop at England (and France)

To be fair there maybe should be co efficients based on performance, Irelands auto entries should increase and Wales stays same (based on semi and q finals would have picked them up points, Scotland and Italys decrease

So Scotland and Italy only get one place each

Ireland deserve the same number of places as France and England (after all have a higher co-efficient than France)

So thats 6 places, 4 irish teams and we can give one to Scotland and one to Italy and we have the H-cup same as it is this year

Kingshu wrote:To be fair there maybe should be co efficients based on performance, Irelands auto entries should increase and Wales stays same (based on semi and q finals would have picked them up points, Scotland and Italys decrease

So Scotland and Italy only get one place each

Ireland deserve the same number of places as France and England (after all have a higher co-efficient than France)

So thats 6 places, 4 irish teams and we can give one to Scotland and one to Italy and we have the H-cup same as it is this year

I absolutely agree. There is a seeding format for European Rugby.

The top twenty would still see both Scots sides in the upper echelons of performance. Mix that list with league finishing positions and you have your twenty teams. And maybe 24 in the Amlin.


1 Leinster I
2 Toulouse F
3 Biarritz F
4 Munster I
5 Cardiff Blues W
6 Northampton Saints E
7 Clermont Auvergne F
8 Ulster I
9 Leicester Tigers E
10 Stade Français F
11 Harlequins E
12 Toulon F
13 Edinburgh S
14 Ospreys W
15 London Wasps E
16 Perpignan F
17 Bath E
18 Scarlets W
19 Glasgow Warriors S
20 Saracens E

21 Brive
22 Gloucester
23 London Irish
24 Connacht
25 Sale Sharks
26 Bourgoin
27 Treviso
28 Castres Olympique
29 Racing Métro
30 Montpellier
31 Newport Gwent Dragons
32 Newcastle Falcons
33 Aironi
34 Exeter Chiefs
35 Worcester Warriors
36 La Rochelle
37 Viadana
38 Montauban
39 Calvisano
40 Bayonne
41 Bucureşti Wolves
42 Rovigo
43 Agen
44 Cavalieri Prato

It's difficult to see why the French and English (who bring most of the money) with leagues containing at least as many sides as the Rabo, would agree to only have 5 entrants to Rabo's 8?

Remember (rightly or wrongly) the English and French believe some of the Irish sides' recent success is due to them having an unfair advantage. They are hardly likely to agree more places for Rabo sides on the basis of recent performances.

DaveM wrote:It's difficult to see why the French and English (who bring most of the money) with leagues containing at least as many sides as the Rabo, would agree to only have 5 entrants to Rabo's 8?

Remember (rightly or wrongly) the English and French believe some of the Irish sides' recent success is due to them having an unfair advantage. They are hardly likely to agree more places for Rabo sides on the basis of recent performances.

This is what you seem to be continually misunderstanding. The ERC and the HEC were not formed by the leagues. They were formed by the rugby unions. Each country is given a certain number of places, and they are allowed to allocate them however they see fit. The fact that league positions are used does not mean that the leagues have a say in who get the places. If the IRFU decided tomorrow that for next season they would award HEC places to the top three teams in the AIL they would be allowed to do so. The reason why they wouldn't do that is because with such a small population, and therefore, a smaller player base than France and England, the IRFU have decided to concentrate their resources on the provinces. The HEC predates the Celtic league, which was set up so the Celtic countries could bring the teams they chose to represent them.

DaveM wrote:It's difficult to see why the French and English (who bring most of the money) with leagues containing at least as many sides as the Rabo, would agree to only have 5 entrants to Rabo's 8?

Remember (rightly or wrongly) the English and French believe some of the Irish sides' recent success is due to them having an unfair advantage. They are hardly likely to agree more places for Rabo sides on the basis of recent performances.

The English and French clubs currently have six places each. The Irish have three, as do the Welsh. Scotland and Italy have two apiece. So that's H Cup places for teams who now play in the Pro 12. If English and Fench clubs want to reduce the number of clubs from 24 to 20, then England and France drop one apiece and Pro 12 drop 2. Thus 5, 5 and 8. This would maintain the meritocratic nature of the competition and give each country a sporting chance to qualify for the comp.

If the real focus is on reducing the hegemony of Irish clubs, do English and French clubs really think that some or all of Irish provinces would end up outside the top 6 each season if they continued to rotate their squads as they do currently? It's the central contracting and player management that is the key issue.

While rotating their squad, Leinster and Munster are strong enough to fight on two fronts and still be at the top of the Rabbo and HEC.

They are just very good teams.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Why so many French and English teams...?

Shouldn't Ireland be rewarded more than France and England, as they are more successful?

As you state in your poll post both England & Ireland teams have won it 6 times a piece.

Look I do not think it is about how many times each nation as held the cup, it has more to do with the fact that the French and English are not getting the results they used to against the Celtic teams, there was a time when certain games were nailed on bankers for the likes of Toulose and Leicester but now that the Celts have improved going to places like Scotland and Wales and even Gallway are not givens any more, even more to the point even when these teams travel to away grounds around Europe you can no longer rubber stamp the result before hand, and this I think is what they a worrying about, no longer are they winning the cup and getting sides into the quarters and semi's all the time, but it is touch and go weather they will get out of their pools and that is costing them financialy this is what they are trying to change.

valjester wrote:This is what you seem to be continually misunderstanding. The ERC and the HEC were not formed by the leagues. They were formed by the rugby unions. Each country is given a certain number of places, and they are allowed to allocate them however they see fit.

It doesn't matter how the competition was formed, it will only continue if the English and French clubs want it to.

Pot Hale wrote:
The English and French clubs currently have six places each. The Irish have three, as do the Welsh. Scotland and Italy have two apiece. So that's H Cup places for teams who now play in the Pro 12. If English and Fench clubs want to reduce the number of clubs from 24 to 20, then England and France drop one apiece and Pro 12 drop 2. Thus 5, 5 and 8. This would maintain the meritocratic nature of the competition and give each country a sporting chance to qualify for the comp.

If the real focus is on reducing the hegemony of Irish clubs, do English and French clubs really think that some or all of Irish provinces would end up outside the top 6 each season if they continued to rotate their squads as they do currently? It's the central contracting and player management that is the key issue.

I understand why you propose it, but I don't see why the English and French clubs, who bring most of the money, would agree to it. At the end of the day I think the English and French sides have a strong negotiating position as I think the idea that the SA or any other SH sides which rip up the world rugby calendar for an opportunity to play Glasgow, Connaught or the Dragons is fairly fanciful (now SA, France and England, the world's three biggest rugby markets, would be financially attractive even if the rugby would be horrible).

And I certainly don't think the English and French clubs would expect Munster, Leinster and Ulster to necessarily finish outside of the top 6 (although in any given season one of them might), I think they expect them to have a harder time in their league which would weaken them slightly in the HEC. We are talking small margins. Also avoiding the Edinburgh farce of last/this season will be high on the English and French clubs' agenda.

At the end the of 2013-14 season, the current Heineken agreement expires. And clearly the Anglo-French are pitching for a better (as they see it) a better deal - not necessarily financially (which they well want to do as well - competitively on the 'level playing' field argument.

Let's separate those two factors and analyse them so far as we can, from whatever established facts as are available, can be gleaned.

The clubs:

Deloitte published the the following report http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_GB/uk/industries/sportsbusinessgroup/d1d5780793a22310VgnVCM1000001a56f00aRCRD.htm (pub Sep 2011, season 2009/10)

The European Rugby Union Top 15 - 2009/10 revenue
Position Club 2009/10 Revenue (£m) 2009/10 Revenue (€m)
1 Toulouse 27.4 33.5
2 Clermont Auvergne 19.5 23.8
3 Leicester Tigers 18.5 22.6
4 Stade Français 18.0 22.0
5 Racing Métro 92 17.2 21.0
6 Toulon 16.4 20.0
7 Brive 16.0 19.5
8 Montpellier 14.8 18.1
9 Biarritz Olympique 14.5 17.7
10 Perpignan 12.9 15.7
11 Northampton Saints 12.0 14.7
12 Bayonne 12.0 14.6
13 Castres Olympique 11.8 14.5
14 Harlequins 10.6 12.9
15 Gloucester 9.4 11.4
Notes:

French club figures converted to £ using exchange rate as at 30 June 2010 (£1 = €1.2214)
Figures for Irish provinces and Scottish clubs not available
Highest placed Welsh region is Cardiff Blues with revenues of £8.8m

Position Club 2010/11 Average Attendance
1 Leicester Tigers 21,096
2 Toulouse 18,239
3 Clermont Auvergne 15,810
4 Munster 15,430
5 Bayonne 14,588
6 Leinster 13,707
7 Toulon 13,460
8 Northampton Saints 13,358
9 Perpignan 13,063
10 Gloucester 13,041
11 Harlequins 12,680
12 Montpellier 12,648
13 La Rochelle 11,973
14 Bath 11,853
15 Stade Français 11,722



Notes:

Includes domestic home league matches only in 2010/11 (not including play-off matches or European Rugby cup matches or other fixtures)
Average for each club is for matches played in their normal home stadium, and does not include figures for home matches played by certain clubs in larger stadia. Munster played seven Magners League (now RaboDirect Pro12) matches at Thomond Park, Limerick in 2010/11 and four matches at the smaller Musgrave Park, Cork. The average figure shown above covers all eleven matches at Limerick and Cork. The average for seven matches at Thomond Park was 20,180.

But the (brief) report needs to be read before comment.

Looking at published (B&I) annual reports 2010-12:

Ireland's (IRFU) total competition 'winnings' income from the Provinces appears to be €9.3m (£7.44m applying a 0.8 conversion factor).
Scotland, Wales and England don't publish any equivalent as their sides are independent to more or less a degree from their parent Unions.

Broadcasting income. Two Unions declared these specifically - England £31.8m, Scotland £11.5m

Ticket sales : England £30m, Scotland £8.5m

If you want to read more, try https://www.606v2.com/t34009-european-cup-competitions-a-suggested-practical-solution#1496106 but please don't clutter that one up with bickering.

What I'm trying to pint out is that it appears that:

1. The financial clout of this argument is that it would appear to be a straight fight between the Franglos and the Irish.
2. The moral high ground is the area of dispute and is largely, it appears, depends bit you hold most sacred.

But as money looms very large in the background of this matter, a decision will be that the leagues will chose to hang together on a compromise in preference to hanging separately in a lose-lose scenario.

In any negotiation, if you are going to put a threat on the table i.e. 'we'll leave if we don't get exactly what we want', then you have to mean it, and deliver on it.

There's two key messages coming through from McCafferty - 80% of our revenue comes from league, the Cup is only worth 20% so we can live without it. The other countries depend on the cup to survive.

Irish rugby with its central contracting model has an unfair advantage by resting its players and not having to compete in their league. Therefore, they must play their players more often in a more competitive league. This will reduce their chances of making the knockout stages in the cup where the main European money is made for clubs.

The reduction in the amount of money they will get means they can't afford to bring in as many foreign players to supplement their playing stocks.

The amount of money that is split between clubs in the competition is going to change in favour of England and France since they attract the tv and sponsor monies. This will allow the English and French clubs to bolster their own stocks.

The comment from McCafferty about feeling sorry for the Welsh clubs and their funding is a clever divide and conquer move. England and France will set up their own tournament, and if others want to join them, then fair enough.

The four Pro 12 countries, particularly Ireland, have little to bargain with, unless it's taken to a wider level, and counter sanctions at test level start to emerge that threaten the 6N, but I doubt that could or would happen.

In short, the Pro 12 clubs are buggered. Time to lie back and think of England, methinks.

The four Pro 12 countries, particularly Ireland, have little to bargain with, unless it's taken to a wider level, and counter sanctions at test level start to emerge that threaten the 6N, but I doubt that could or would happen.

That would be the Rabo nations only viable threat, a really stupid thing to do though as all the nations depend heavilly on the big money spinner. That would be playing with fire as the Rabo clubs would all go under without the 6N and the French and English Unions would also take a big hit. That would be a real nobody wins move, though the English and French clubs would continue with smaller squads (no international payments for the 6N but less players needed).

Pot Hale wrote:

Irish rugby with its central contracting model has an unfair advantage by resting its players and not having to compete in their league. Therefore, they must play their players more often in a more competitive league. This will reduce their chances of making the knockout stages in the cup where the main European money is made for clubs.

Dream on buddy - even if HC qualification is determined by league position teams like Leinster will qualify with their second 15 at a canter. I have to say I find all of this very funny indeed, the English can't beat us on the pitch so they are trying to beat us in the boardroom, pretty humiliating for English rugby. Ireland has an unfair advantage through central contracts? Nobody stopping you from introducing central contracts are they...

Pot Hale wrote:In any negotiation, if you are going to put a threat on the table i.e. 'we'll leave if we don't get exactly what we want', then you have to mean it, and deliver on it.

There's two key messages coming through from McCafferty - 80% of our revenue comes from league, the Cup is only worth 20% so we can live without it. The other countries depend on the cup to survive.

Irish rugby with its central contracting model has an unfair advantage by resting its players and not having to compete in their league. Therefore, they must play their players more often in a more competitive league. This will reduce their chances of making the knockout stages in the cup where the main European money is made for clubs.

The reduction in the amount of money they will get means they can't afford to bring in as many foreign players to supplement their playing stocks.

The amount of money that is split between clubs in the competition is going to change in favour of England and France since they attract the tv and sponsor monies. This will allow the English and French clubs to bolster their own stocks.

The comment from McCafferty about feeling sorry for the Welsh clubs and their funding is a clever divide and conquer move. England and France will set up their own tournament, and if others want to join them, then fair enough.

The four Pro 12 countries, particularly Ireland, have little to bargain with, unless it's taken to a wider level, and counter sanctions at test level start to emerge that threaten the 6N, but I doubt that could or would happen.

In short, the Pro 12 clubs are buggered. Time to lie back and think of England, methinks.

Feic me, Pot Hale, if you're going to make a point, it probably helps to get your facts straight? Where on earth is your evidence that "other countries depend on the (Heino) cup to survive"? Seriously, making stuff up just isn't cool And why on earth do you think the Irish should listen to how the English and French think they shoud organise their league? Man, take a seat

And why on earth do you think the Irish should listen to how the English and French think they shoud organise their league?

Because the Irish and the other Rabo nations take more out of the HEC than they put in? The French and the English are the ones that fund the HEC in the main, remove them and then there is going to be a shortfall in the Rabo's budgets.

I have to say I find all of this very funny indeed, the English can't beat us on the pitch so they are trying to beat us in the boardroom, pretty humiliating for English rugby.

It's all about the money, any other guff is just a PR exercise. The same thing was voiced last time the contract negociations took place and at that point Leinster were yet to win a HEC. Now that the Rabo countries are competitive the French and the English are wondering why they are funding them.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Feic me, Pot Hale, if you're going to make a point, it probably helps to get your facts straight? Where on earth is your evidence that "other countries depend on the (Heino) cup to survive"? Seriously, making stuff up just isn't cool And why on earth do you think the Irish should listen to how the English and French think they shoud organise their league? Man, take a seat

Well, if the Irish provinces, for example, were not playing in the Heineken Cup, and all of the monies that come with it, how do you think they'd get on financially?

I don't profess to know the balance sheets of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht, but I'd suspect that the income generated by participation in, and doing well in, European competitions, gives them a fair chunk of money. And possibly a revenue stream to the IRFU too.

Do you believe they would survive without it?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Irish rugby with its central contracting model has an unfair advantage by resting its players and not having to compete in their league. Therefore, they must play their players more often in a more competitive league. This will reduce their chances of making the knockout stages in the cup where the main European money is made for clubs.

Dream on buddy - even if HC qualification is determined by league position teams like Leinster will qualify with their second 15 at a canter. I have to say I find all of this very funny indeed, the English can't beat us on the pitch so they are trying to beat us in the boardroom, pretty humiliating for English rugby. Ireland has an unfair advantage through central contracts? Nobody stopping you from introducing central contracts are they...

a) I'm summarising the perception of the English Premiership clubs towards Irish rugby.
b) When you say "nobody is stopping you from introducing" - who's 'you'?

Pot Hale wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Feic me, Pot Hale, if you're going to make a point, it probably helps to get your facts straight? Where on earth is your evidence that "other countries depend on the (Heino) cup to survive"? Seriously, making stuff up just isn't cool And why on earth do you think the Irish should listen to how the English and French think they shoud organise their league? Man, take a seat

Well, if the Irish provinces, for example, were not playing in the Heineken Cup, and all of the monies that come with it, how do you think they'd get on financially?

I don't profess to know the balance sheets of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht, but I'd suspect that the income generated by participation in, and doing well in, European competitions, gives them a fair chunk of money. And possibly a revenue stream to the IRFU too.

Do you believe they would survive without it?

No the heino does not give a revenue stream to the IRFU and yes the irish clubs would survive.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Feic me, Pot Hale, if you're going to make a point, it probably helps to get your facts straight? Where on earth is your evidence that "other countries depend on the (Heino) cup to survive"? Seriously, making stuff up just isn't cool And why on earth do you think the Irish should listen to how the English and French think they shoud organise their league? Man, take a seat

Well, if the Irish provinces, for example, were not playing in the Heineken Cup, and all of the monies that come with it, how do you think they'd get on financially?

I don't profess to know the balance sheets of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht, but I'd suspect that the income generated by participation in, and doing well in, European competitions, gives them a fair chunk of money. And possibly a revenue stream to the IRFU too.

Do you believe they would survive without it?

No the heino does not give a revenue stream to the IRFU and yes the irish clubs would survive.

Really? What happens with gate revenues from matches held in Lansdowne or Croke Park?

So far as I can discern from the published accounts, all rugby earnings from the HEC and broadcasting rights are paid centrally into the IRFU.

The ticketing revenues are not clear as I cannot find any independent accounts for the provinces.

Portnoy wrote:So far as I can discern from the published accounts, all rugby earnings from the HEC and broadcasting rights are paid centrally into the IRFU.

The ticketing revenues are not clear as I cannot find any independent accounts for the provinces.

I read the clubs are actually making a loss but its made up for by the IRFU. Thats why we have all these international matches.

from IRFU report 22.8m of €28.4m expenditure on pro game went to the Provinces, €9.3m paid in from Provincial competition income (that's part of the €69.3m IRFU income).

Usual same old same old. Same as when english rugby sold it all to sky. Its all about more money for england and bugger everyone else - despite it would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. its just the usual whining. Call their bluff - let england leave the HC. they don't bring much to the tableanyway

Edinburgh certainly need the HC money - do what Engladn want and further impoverish the game north of the border. Selfish and shortsighted

Ok - so the Cup does provide revenue to the IRFU, and to the clubs.

McCafferty says they have an 80/20 split on league/Cup revenue. How critical is the European funding for Irish provinces to allow them to sustain the teams, the foreign players, and the running of the club?

It's well known that Leinster have a very good season ticket sales, however, if there was no longer European competition available to the club, would the club's popularity with fans be sustained?

Certainly the provinces have a hardcore fan base, but a proportion of that has to have been built on their European success. I don't think they could afford to lose out on the revenues, particularly with their future commitments and plans.

Edit: I found this report from July this year in an Irish newspaper:

Euro cash crisis looming for IRFU


THE IRFU have identified the future of the Heineken Cup as a major risk to their finances as they head into negotiations on the structure of the competition.
The English and French clubs have signalled their intent to withdraw from the competition at the end of the 2013-14 season if changes are not made to the current structure and the distribution of prize money.

Speaking at the IRFU's annual council meeting, honorary treasurer Tom Grace highlighted the potential problems after another season in which ERC revenues contributed handsomely to the union's balance sheet. Provincial income improved by €1.8m as a result of Leinster and Ulster's march to the European final in May.

Negotiations on the Heineken Cup will begin this autumn and IRFU chief executive Philip Browne admitted that there will need to be some compromise if the competition is to continue.

"One assumes we will reach some sort of accommodation through a negotiation process," he said after the meeting at the Aviva Stadium. "The French and English clubs have made known their intention to withdraw from the Heineken Cup and there is a two-year period in which we can reach agreement with them. Alternatively, the competition ceases.

"The reality is, like any negotiation, there will have to be give-and-take from both sides. I don't think anyone has laid out their position yet, it is early days.

The IRFU reported a surplus of €7.8m for last season. That came about as a result of revenues of €67.2m and expenditure of €59.4m. Browne welcomed a strong season off the pitch, but warned that the union's financial position will come under pressure when approximately 3,200 10-year tickets expire in 2013.

"We had a great year in many ways," he said. "In terms of performances of the provinces, in particular, the national team performed well in terms of attracting crowds. "We still have a struggle financially in trying to deal with the debt on the stadium. Repayments have to be made next year to the bank, but it is the same kind of challenge facing any business or organisation and we have to face up to that.

TJ wrote:Usual same old same old. Same as when english rugby sold it all to sky. Its all about more money for england and bugger everyone else - despite it would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. its just the usual whining. Call their bluff - let england leave the HC. they don't bring much to the tableanyway

It's England and France who would leave. And they bring plenty to the table. You can't ignore some realities.

They'll all sit down and negotiate a settlement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Z1dqJzxNo&feature=related

Feckless Rogue wrote:They'll all sit down and negotiate a settlement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5Z1dqJzxNo&feature=related

I disagree with this argument that the English and French can bring more money to the table?

TV rights? The French have theirs as do the Italians and the British and Irish have sky.

Advertising? Maybe but it is nothing compared to the HEC monies shared between the unions.

What money are you guys referring to?

So what happens if we end up with say 2 French and 2 English teams in the heineken cup semis this year which is not inconceivable.

Do the English teams still refuse to participate in the following years competition on the grounds that they are not competing on a level playing field with the Irish and presumably the Welsh, Scots and Italians too who have never been anywhere near winning the heineken cup.

They then set up a competition with the French who they deem to be on their level, which can only be explained by English delusions of grandeur, as a team such as Toulouse would have a playing budget of at least 5 times that of say Exeter or Wasps or any other Aviva club for that matter!

Wouldnt it make far more sense if the Aviva teams aligned themselves with the rabo teams and enforced a european wide salary cap on the french so that a sustainable financial model can be achieved for the game in europe as a whole?

Equality is the apparent crux of this argument and if it is to be attainable then financial constraints have to be applied.

Though the issue is that England, France and ireland have massively higher attendence figures at their major clubs than Wales, Scotland and Italy do. Due to a mix of reasoning, Wales is a less wealthy population, Scotland and Italy rugby is less supported than football by a considerable margin.

And the separation in HEC performance based on supporter attendences loyalty is reflected in the successes of teams throughout the cups history.

Attendences figures are directly proportional to a clubs wealth, those best supported are the richest and most successful those deprived of great attendences struggle.

There will never be a level playing field.

But I do believe an HEC implemented salary cap would level the field more.

Also a reorganisation of the season so that HEC did not clash with international and domestic competition. Use the SH SANZA model as a reference.

It is always written down that the Irish teams rest players (which is true) but not much more than English,Welsh and maybe even less than Scottish teams (remember they were all withdrawn about 2 months before world cup)

International players are limited In England to 32? games in total a season, Ireland and Wales it is similar.
So once you take out the International games, and H-cup games, there are only a certain number of times a player can play in the League.

The difference is there are a lot more international players in the Pro 12 than England of France.

Tigers have prob the same number of International players as the average Pro 12 side, and they suffer when they can't play them, (see complaints after world cup last year), however pro 12 is a much fairer league as all teams are disavantaged.

When ever they return you don't want to play them all in one game and not to be able to play them later, you decide which 2 or 3 you will use, and in the next game use a different 2 or 3. It becomes a much more tactical battle for coaches, when to use certain players.

E.g In England Tigers V London Irish, Tigers have to pick a team, with a few Internations and rest a few, London Irish can pick pretty much a full strength team, Tigers are disadvantaged, but have the squad to cope. Compare to similar Leinster V Scarlets, Leinster have to pick a team and can put in a few internations and rest the rest for the next game, Like Tigers, however Scarlets unlike LI are packed with internationals and have to rest a certain number as well. Coach has to decide which ones to use and when? So overall both need a squad to cope and decide how and when to use International players in the League.

My point is that since the Rabo is full of International players spread throughtout all the teams (even Zebre have more internationals than the average Prem team) it is a much fairer competation, whereas in England only the top few teams suffer, resting internationals.

No amendment that France or England try to impose will change this, Internations will be rested the same amount, and will be picked and chosen for certain games as the coach sees that they are best used for, I'd say that the same strenght Leinster V Scarlets teams will be seen wheiter they both get auto H-cup spots, or if there is only one place for the entire League, as they have to pick and choose when to play interantionalsover the entire league, an dboth are similarly disadvantaged.

The only way England and France can change the player rest agreements, is to have the Pro 12 teams have less international players, so there are teams not weaken by call ups, and rest periods etc etc

If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

Intotouch wrote:If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

It will be the six nations next if they don't get a grand slam any time soon.

LordDowlais wrote:

Intotouch wrote:If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

It will be the six nations next if they don't get a grand slam any time soon.

If You Tolerate This Then Your Children Will Be Next

Intotouch wrote:If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

Do you actually have a clue what's actually happening? The French clubs wanted the renegotiate the competition format. This was refused so they and the English clubs handed their notice to force a renegotiation. Roger Lewis has then said that now is the right time to rehash the format as it's been several years since they last did it. If anything the 4 other unions are using their superior votes to force the English and France clubs to do what THEY want.

The HEC cup was originally set up when most of the celtic unions were in dire straights. Their is real strength in the Irish game at the moment. The WRU are making massive profits and the SRU have just increased the player budget at their teams to match the top of the English clubs. Now is exactly the right time to ensure that the English and French system are not being sponged off by the other unions that seem to be well.