French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

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From the Grauniad,,


The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

Intotouch wrote:If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

Where did you get the idea that there would be "more Franglo clubs in the competition"?

The proposal is to cut the number of clubs from 24 to 20, and that club reduction would be amongst the Pro 12 countries. Effectively this would remove the likes of Connacht, Treviso and other bottom dwellers from the comp. So there'll be more money to go around, with a greater share going to the English and French clubs. And just to make sure that there's a level playing field, the Pro 12 will have to adopt a top 6 qualification process. Scotland? Sure don't Edinburgh or Glasgow get regularly into the top 6? Treviso - well sure isn't that what competition is all about?

It's the poor old Welsh we worry about. Will they be able to cope? Did we tell you that we're setting up a new competition 16 teams - there might be two or three spots available for a certain country that might want to play more regularly with the big boys -knoworrimeansaynomoresaynomorenudgenudgewinkwink......

HammerofThunor wrote:Now is exactly the right time to ensure that the English and French system are not being sponged off by the other unions that seem to be well.

HT,

How are we sponging off England and France's teams?

Pot Hale wrote:

Intotouch wrote:If this blackmail (a harsh word but it's what this amounts to) works and the agreement is renegotiated in a way that results in more Franglo clubs in the competition and more money for those countries from the pot then they try to get more again in a couple of years and more again after that. I think that any kind of compromise would be a disaster for European rugby. Two countries deciding how the competition runs to suit them is a disaster for everyone else.

If the other countries can't stand up to the French and English now then they will twist the competitions in Europe more and more to suit them even if it means rugby dies a death in other countries as a result. What will happen to rugby in Scotland if they have no representatives in the H cup? Or Italy?

If changing the qualification rules is designed to make it tougher for Irish teams to succeed then it won't work. Leinster and Munster finish in the top four of the rabo and win the H cup already. The IRFU won't change their stance on limiting players playing time per season either because their priority is the national team, so the Irish players will still be horribly fresh at the business end of the h cup. It's Scotland and Italy that'll suffer.

This arrangement/ competition was designed to help rugby grow and improve in all the countries involved. Take away that idea and the sport becomes more and more unequal with fewer strong competing nations. I am really dreading what's going to come out of these negotiations and in the years to follow.

Where did you get the idea that there would be "more Franglo clubs in the competition"?

The proposal is to cut the number of clubs from 24 to 20, and that club reduction would be amongst the Pro 12 countries. Effectively this would remove the likes of Connacht, Treviso and other bottom dwellers from the comp. So there'll be more money to go around, with a greater share going to the English and French clubs. And just to make sure that there's a level playing field, the Pro 12 will have to adopt a top 6 qualification process. Scotland? Sure don't Edinburgh or Glasgow get regularly into the top 6? Treviso - well sure isn't that what competition is all about?

It's the poor old Welsh we worry about. Will they be able to cope? Did we tell you that we're setting up a new competition 16 teams - there might be two or three spots available for a certain country that might want to play more regularly with the big boys -knoworrimeansaynomoresaynomorenudgenudgewinkwink......

It's the poor old Welsh we worry about.

Could you be anymore condescending towards Wales and Welsh rugby if your life depended on it? I doubt it....

Play regularly with the big boys? The big boys whose teams cant win a HC and whose champions can't beat Connacht? I don't know what your definition of big boys is but it seems radically different from the rest of us who live in the real world. The big boys in European rugby are Irish provinces, get with the program mate.

Big wallets but no brains would sum up most english and french clubs. You only have to look at the turnover of playing and coaching staff at these clubs each year to realise how poorly run they are.

And they say its all because they are not competing on a level playing field.

Scrumdown wrote:Big wallets but no brains would sum up most english and french clubs. You only have to look at the turnover of playing and coaching staff at these clubs each year to realise how poorly run they are.

And they say its all because they are not competing on a level playing field.

Change of personnel is not an accurate gauge of how well a club/Region etc is run.

There have been many changes to the Welsh Regions to.

Scrumdown I didn't realise that all the Pro12 clubs have aspirational business models to follow! I agree that money is wasted but I certainly don't envy the vast majority of Pro12 sides!

Artful Dodger stop banging on about Connacht beating Quins. You don't hear me banging on about Saracens beating Ospreys, the Pro12 champions twice in the HC to knock them out do you........

beshocked wrote:Scrumdown I didn't realise that all the Pro12 clubs have aspirational business models to follow! I agree that money is wasted but I certainly don't envy the vast majority of Pro12 sides!

Artful Dodger stop banging on about Connacht beating Quins. You don't hear me banging on about Saracens beating Ospreys, the Pro12 champions twice in the HC to knock them out do you........

You do a little

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Now is exactly the right time to ensure that the English and French system are not being sponged off by the other unions that seem to be well.

HT,

How are we sponging off England and France's teams?

It was based on the 'belief' among the clubs that they bring more sponsorship and TV money to the table than they get back in return. If they 'believe' this now they they certainly must believe it was true when the last agreement was made in 2007 (before the Leinster years) and even more so when the competition reached it's current format. This is what they 'believe' and if it is true then now would be the right time to re-look at it. The celtic countries seem to be doing very well for themselves and as has been pointed out on several occasions, only 4 English clubs made profit this year.

I used the term 'belief' several times because I'm not saying it's true but it is the perception among the people that matter (English and French clubs).

A factoid that I unearthed today today: Buried in the season ticket section of their site (mysteriously not readily apparent in the match ticket equivalent) Tigers operate three price bands of prices:
A*: (WR games with the Saints, Gloucester and (strangely to my mind) Londpn Irish )

A: Harlequins, Bath, Saracens, Wasps and the HEC games against Ospreys and Toulouse.

B: Worcester. Exeter, Welsh, Sale plus the LV games with Wasps and Irish.

http://www.tigers.talent-sport.co.uk/PagesPublic/ProductBrowse/standAndAreaSelection.aspx?stadium=S2&product=ST1213&campaign=Y6&type=S

What does this prove? Well not a lot in reality as the price tiers only represent a few quid difference and that the Tigers' the w@nky marketeers don't acknowledge that there is any letter beyond 'b'.

So that led me to have a look at the Os' site: http://purchase.tickets.com/buy/TicketPurchase?agency=OSPREYS&organ_val=22376&schedule=list
The Leinster game http://purchase.tickets.com/buy/TicketPurchase
EAST PRM * £28.00
EAST STD * £20.00
WEST PRM * £28.00
WEST STD * £20.00
SOUTH PM * £28.00
SOUTH ST * £20.00
And that pretty much so far as I can see remains constant for all match tickets currently on offer.

So I went to Ulster site (the Lunster ones requiring signons and no doubt pledging commitments to emails and undying loyalty etc.).
Interestingly their site has the Heineys and 'Inter-Pro' (whatever that means - presumably Irish derbies) at the top and t'others

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/tickets/match_by_match_prices.php

I'm not sure conclusion that can be drawn but that a opens another strand to the thread of bickering by confusing opinion with unhelpful or misleading but nonetheless factual evidence.

Enjoy. I'm only here to serve.

Inter-Pro does indeed mean Irish derbies.

They and the HC games are the ones that draw the biggest crowds hence the pricing.

Ulster £11 and £12 on terrance, these have come down, I'm sure it used to be £15 and £18

I know there are some Wlesh fans that used to say Rugby ticket should be same price as Cinema, but honestly, I think £15 an £18 is decent value.

I hope the Provinces keep the ticket costs low, but I can see Leinsters increasing as demand outstrips supply.

Hate the way with Leinster you can't get just one ticket you have to purchase for a 2nd game (is this still the case), Have to admit I love Ulster, you can still get ticket handy enough but there is always a great atmostsphere at games, normally you only get one or the other.

Looking forward to Glasgow this wekend.

Kingshu wrote:Ulster £11 and £12 on terrance, these have come down, I'm sure it used to be £15 and £18

I know there are some Wlesh fans that used to say Rugby ticket should be same price as Cinema, but honestly, I think £15 an £18 is decent value.

I hope the Provinces keep the ticket costs low, but I can see Leinsters increasing as demand outstrips supply.

Hate the way with Leinster you can't get just one ticket you have to purchase for a 2nd game (is this still the case), Have to admit I love Ulster, you can still get ticket handy enough but there is always a great atmostsphere at games, normally you only get one or the other.

Looking forward to Glasgow this wekend.

Not sure Kingshu, I have been a season ticket holder for 4 years but before that I used to just buy all my tickets separately on ticketmaster and apart from a couple of months were there was a promotion on I can’t remember being forced to buy more than 1 ticket at a time.

p.s. our season ticket sales are down this year, last year we sold out 13.5k, this year we won’t quite hit that number but it’s expected that we’ll be around 13k total.

Mickado wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Ulster £11 and £12 on terrance, these have come down, I'm sure it used to be £15 and £18

I know there are some Wlesh fans that used to say Rugby ticket should be same price as Cinema, but honestly, I think £15 an £18 is decent value.

I hope the Provinces keep the ticket costs low, but I can see Leinsters increasing as demand outstrips supply.

Hate the way with Leinster you can't get just one ticket you have to purchase for a 2nd game (is this still the case), Have to admit I love Ulster, you can still get ticket handy enough but there is always a great atmostsphere at games, normally you only get one or the other.

Looking forward to Glasgow this wekend.

Not sure Kingshu, I have been a season ticket holder for 4 years but before that I used to just buy all my tickets separately on ticketmaster and apart from a couple of months were there was a promotion on I can’t remember being forced to buy more than 1 ticket at a time.

p.s. our season ticket sales are down this year, last year we sold out 13.5k, this year we won’t quite hit that number but it’s expected that we’ll be around 13k total.

Mick we have passed the 13k mark. i never have problems getting tickets for leinster games. There is always tickets available, just dont leave it until the last minute to get them.

Not exactly hard to find on the Leinster site. Under tickets/ticket prices. Exactly one click from the home page. No login required.

Inter pro = Inter Provincial. Not a big leap either.

Exactly the same as Ulster. (Note HC games refer to last year Bath Glasgow and MP)

Tier 1 Matches

Connacht, Munster, Glasgow, Bath, Ulster, Montpellier Hèrault R C*

If you scroll down you will see

Tier 2 Matches

Cardiff Blues, Edinburgh Rugby, Newport-Gwent Dragons, Ospreys, Aironi Rugby, Benetton Treviso, Scarlets, Glasgow Warriors

Sorry forgot to put in the link... http://www.leinsterrugby.ie/tickets/ticket_prices.php

Kingshu wrote:y.

Hate the way with Leinster you can't get just one ticket you have to purchase for a 2nd game (is this still the case),

Never was the case. They will always sell individual tickets, they just have offers bundling a big game with a little game. (Normally offering a saving) Only in the unlikely event that these sell out would there be no individual tickets available.

If you are the away team you can always get them through your own club/Province.

Cardiff Blues are doing a similar thing this year.

For the Terraces

Category A games (HC and Welsh derbies) - £18
Category B games (Irish and Scots games in Rabo) - £15
Category C games (Friendlies, LV cup, Italy Rabo games) - £12

Seems a good to me and I will definitely be going to quite a few this year. Hopefully see some decent crowds down there and a good atmosphere.

Edinburgh first game up on the second Friday.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Now is exactly the right time to ensure that the English and French system are not being sponged off by the other unions that seem to be well.

HT,

How are we sponging off England and France's teams?

It was based on the 'belief' among the clubs that they bring more sponsorship and TV money to the table than they get back in return. If they 'believe' this now they they certainly must believe it was true when the last agreement was made in 2007 (before the Leinster years) and even more so when the competition reached it's current format. This is what they 'believe' and if it is true then now would be the right time to re-look at it. The celtic countries seem to be doing very well for themselves and as has been pointed out on several occasions, only 4 English clubs made profit this year.

I used the term 'belief' several times because I'm not saying it's true but it is the perception among the people that matter (English and French clubs).

Whilst a couple of the provinces are doing well financialy, thanks partly to central funding, its certainly not true of the Welsh, Italian and Scottish Rabbles ...despite heavy subsidy from their Unions.
But the actual profits arent the point. its what the clubs (or rather their audiences) bring in terms of sponsorship and crowds thats in question....and how much their presence generates for the smaller Unions vs how much those "put back" in terms of value to the competition and crowds.
Im sure in a monenymans an ideal world the Franglo Cup would infact be the Franirilenglnadish cup, but because the IRFU are heavily tied (handcuffed) to their Celtic brethern thats not on the table.
It may just be a belief but its one held by people who have the actual figures and run the business ( see Macaffertys comments regarding the business models of the carious clubs and the french complaints that the HC gets in the way of them expanding the T14)

One thing thats not really been b ought up in this is the main reason why the French are pushing to get it sorted out so quickly, they got a rollicking from the IRB for breaking player welfare regulations ( playing too many games). Their big clubs have a straight up choice, reduce their commitment to their more profitable league which hold more interest for their fans and risk not even qualifying for the HC, or not take the HC seriously by playing weakened squads. Rightly or wrongly they arent going to cut the number of T14 games they play, far from it many owners are pushing for expansion of the league due to its popularity. Their complaints about the current system are based on this catch 22, they want to take part in a serious Europe wide competition but the current model doesnt generate enough interest/money for them to fit it in because its too long and has too many small clubs in it.
Pretty sure the English stance is just based on them wanting to pee off the Welsh.

A couple of observations

Reducing the size of thre competition to 20 or indeed 16 is not going to address the issue re number of games played by the French teams qualifying in a season. It will still be 6 games including the final, maybe 5.
If they will not reduce the games players played in their league then any European competition is going to become marginal.

As for Irish sides and provinces - Ulster are healthy, Leinster are (I assume). Munster and Connacht are not.

In fact in the Pro-12 I suspect Ulster and Leinster are the only ones looking good in the profit and loss department.

It has been said that in the French/English model they want its runs the risk of Italy or Scotland, not having a team in the H-cup, and the argument is that the h-cup is used to represent the best sides from each European Union, and it would be unacceptable if Italy or Scotland were not represented, but noone considers in unacceptable that Russia, Romania or Spain are not represented.

Maybe Italy and Scotland have fallen into this catogary, (the top teams from this group).

I hope that when the H-cup is revamped there is a way these even smaller clubs have a chance of getting in.

Somethng like top 4 in each league auto qualify and every other team including the minnows playoff for the remaining places. gives a fair chance to all.

Artful_Dodger wrote:
It's the poor old Welsh we worry about.

Could you be anymore condescending towards Wales and Welsh rugby if your life depended on it? I doubt it....

Play regularly with the big boys? The big boys whose teams cant win a HC and whose champions can't beat Connacht? I don't know what your definition of big boys is but it seems radically different from the rest of us who live in the real world. The big boys in European rugby are Irish provinces, get with the program mate.

Eh.....never mind.... try reading it again and think of someone parodying the English viewpoint.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Now is exactly the right time to ensure that the English and French system are not being sponged off by the other unions that seem to be well.

HT,

How are we sponging off England and France's teams?

It was based on the 'belief' among the clubs that they bring more sponsorship and TV money to the table than they get back in return. If they 'believe' this now they they certainly must believe it was true when the last agreement was made in 2007 (before the Leinster years) and even more so when the competition reached it's current format. This is what they 'believe' and if it is true then now would be the right time to re-look at it. The celtic countries seem to be doing very well for themselves and as has been pointed out on several occasions, only 4 English clubs made profit this year.

I used the term 'belief' several times because I'm not saying it's true but it is the perception among the people that matter (English and French clubs).

It all boils down to this belief. The fact is if England and France went off and created a new tournament it wouldn't generate anywhere near the money that the HEC does. So they'd lose out. Its all the teams in it together that makes the HEC so valuable. During the week we had the French saying that the Amlin needs to be represented by more countries to make it a success. Basically proving my point.

The English and French clubs wants you to believe that they're creating the wealth. They're independent CLUBS, privately owned and should know better than anyone else how markets work. They probably do and if not they're on a steep learning curve because there won't be many if any changes to the HEC.

During the week we had the French saying that the Amlin needs to be represented by more countries to make it a success.

A success comparible to the HEC, the Amlin could be a much more lucrative exercise if it was more hotly contested. As it is it remains profitable just with the English and French teams that can't make the HEC. It was an attempt to get the Rabo teams to buy into the idea of making a bigger European competition than just the HEC. Currently the Rabo nations care only for the HEC, the plans on the table include revolutionising the Amlin to make it a lot more lucrative and streamlining the HEC, there's also the addition of a third tier which would be partly subsidised from the additional income. But the Rabo nations won't have it, they don't want to see a viable third tier and the development of the other European nations, they want to continue with the current layout because it is what is most financially beneficial to them.

The fact is if England and France went off and created a new tournament it wouldn't generate anywhere near the money that the HEC does.

The HEC is only a fifth of the English clubs income. The AP generates more, replacing it with an Anglo-French competition would be worth a bit less but they wouldn't have to split the cash with all the Rabo nations and so I doubt the difference would be that much in the end. Currently the Rabo Unions take out something like twice what they put in. That's a big lump to subsidise.

I hope that when the H-cup is revamped there is a way these even smaller clubs have a chance of getting in.

See back to the brilliance of a third tier idea where the smaller clubs use the competitions as a stepping stone. Win the third tier and then they are in the Amlin, win the Amlin and your in the HEC. Build those second tier European countries up rather than watch the few we allow in take a massive kicking against second teams from the AP and the French.

profitius wrote:It all boils down to this belief. The fact is if England and France went off and created a new tournament it wouldn't generate anywhere near the money that the HEC does. So they'd lose out. Its all the teams in it together that makes the HEC so valuable. During the week we had the French saying that the Amlin needs to be represented by more countries to make it a success. Basically proving my point.

The English and French clubs wants you to believe that they're creating the wealth. They're independent CLUBS, privately owned and should know better than anyone else how markets work. They probably do and if not they're on a steep learning curve because there won't be many if any changes to the HEC.

So their belief that a Anglo-French competition wouldn't result in a massive pay loss (split 2 ways rather than 6) is just wrong because you 'know' it wouldn't? Is that actually based on anything at all or just your gut?

Just common sense 'hammerofthunor'. The new anglo french competition would have no history and therefore it is unlikely that television companies and sponsors would be prepared to pay as much for the rights, especially given the backdrop from which the competition was created. Also, I cant see the english and french clubs taking an anglo french competition seriously in any case. In reality it is a non-starter.

So no-one takes the Rabo, the S15, or the Rugby Championship seriously because they are new competitions?

The new Anglo-French competion won't have to generate as much money as the HEC as it will only have to split two ways. Playing French sides is a diferent product to the AP as far as TV, sponsors and fans are concerned. Plus I wouldn't be at-all surprised if South African club owners were to be asked if they would like to be involved in playing the top English and French sides - obviously a 3 way split but potentially a huge money spinner for all involved.

What will the Rabo clubs be left with - playing each other again in a new cup competition?

There's no doubt that the English and French sides are better placed to do without the HEC than the Rabo sides. But I don't think most of the English sides want out as long as the Rabo clubs agree to significant changes. As not agreeing looks pretty disastrous for Rabo sides I think the changes will happen.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:So no-one takes the Rabo, the S15, or the Rugby Championship seriously because they are new competitions?

Rabo is the youngest of those, or are you trying to make out that the other 2 are "new" because they added a few teams?

Tri Nations is the same age as the HC. Super 10 is a few years older. It became Super 12 at the same time as the HC was born. i.e the onset of Pro Rugby.

How seriously people take a comp is directly proportional to it's age. 6/5/4 Nations and Top 14 are good examples.

HammerofThunor wrote:

profitius wrote:It all boils down to this belief. The fact is if England and France went off and created a new tournament it wouldn't generate anywhere near the money that the HEC does. So they'd lose out. Its all the teams in it together that makes the HEC so valuable. During the week we had the French saying that the Amlin needs to be represented by more countries to make it a success. Basically proving my point.

The English and French clubs wants you to believe that they're creating the wealth. They're independent CLUBS, privately owned and should know better than anyone else how markets work. They probably do and if not they're on a steep learning curve because there won't be many if any changes to the HEC.

So their belief that a Anglo-French competition wouldn't result in a massive pay loss (split 2 ways rather than 6) is just wrong because you 'know' it wouldn't? Is that actually based on anything at all or just your gut?

Heres what would happen if the English and French decided to go it alone.

-Sponsors and TV would come in to sponsor it, less than half of what the HEC would get I reckon. There wouldn't be a lot of interest.
-The French clubs would see it as an opportunity to rest their regular starters. Why bother playing for a cup that has little or no prestige.
-Sponsors and TV would lose interest and it would end after a few seasons.

As I've said, the French complained this week that theres no interest in the amlin because theres not enough Rabo teams in it ie variety. Also the LV cup is a good indicator of what will happen. Whats the point of a European competition without some of the best teams in Europe? Its not a true European competition so is destined to fail especially considering French attitudes.

Weren't they saying that the encourage the RABO teams to be ok with more of their teams dropping down into it?

The LV Cup made more money for the English clubs than the HEC. That was just English and Welsh clubs AND even in the beginning a lot of teams had weakened teams in it.

Regardless of whether the best teams in Europe need to be in the European competition; an English competition will generate significant interest in England. As would a French one in France. I don't think the Irish or Welsh teams not being in it would have much impact on English interest (it certainly doesn't to me). Therefore it wouldn't have much impact on English viewers or English sponsorship. So really they're only losing the money generated by non-English people in England (and that's probably less than the amount they losing giving to the Scots, Italians and Welsh).

The only possible problem with an Anglo-French cup is that the HEC is very stable. A Franglo cup would be more of risk. Which is why they want to negotiation a better deal with the current group.

And of course a Franglo competition would probably be immensely tedious given the way French club rugby is at present!

But you are absolutely right - England and France are still huge rugby markets and there would be plenty of interest from tv and sponsors. With ESPN having lost the football I could imagine them bidding, for instance.

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

profitius wrote:It all boils down to this belief. The fact is if England and France went off and created a new tournament it wouldn't generate anywhere near the money that the HEC does. So they'd lose out. Its all the teams in it together that makes the HEC so valuable. During the week we had the French saying that the Amlin needs to be represented by more countries to make it a success. Basically proving my point.

The English and French clubs wants you to believe that they're creating the wealth. They're independent CLUBS, privately owned and should know better than anyone else how markets work. They probably do and if not they're on a steep learning curve because there won't be many if any changes to the HEC.

So their belief that a Anglo-French competition wouldn't result in a massive pay loss (split 2 ways rather than 6) is just wrong because you 'know' it wouldn't? Is that actually based on anything at all or just your gut?

Heres what would happen if the English and French decided to go it alone.

-Sponsors and TV would come in to sponsor it, less than half of what the HEC would get I reckon. There wouldn't be a lot of interest.
-The French clubs would see it as an opportunity to rest their regular starters. Why bother playing for a cup that has little or no prestige.
-Sponsors and TV would lose interest and it would end after a few seasons.

As I've said, the French complained this week that theres no interest in the amlin because theres not enough Rabo teams in it ie variety. Also the LV cup is a good indicator of what will happen. Whats the point of a European competition without some of the best teams in Europe? Its not a true European competition so is destined to fail especially considering French attitudes.

Every French club except for Toulouse and Clermont currently do this anyway.

The French really aren't bothered about the HC at all.

I think they would be happy to drop it altogether. They would then move to a Top 16 or even 18 league to replace the lost games.

Their season is already way too long, starting in August and finishing in June, so they will see it as an opportunity to get 4 extra league games in, maybe expand their play offs and/or get some French cup games and maybe compress the time frames of their club season.

I really don't think they would be bothered at all.

What would everyone else do if it all cam tumbling down?

Well I think Wales and Ireland would probably add in a regional/ provincial championship involving their 4 sides to replace 6 games thereby having another round effectively of derbies but in a separate competition to the Rabo.

Over time I could see the Rabo expanding to accommodate more Scots and Italian sides and maybe another Welsh side which would see that league have more games.

Another thought is a British and Irish cup.

The loss of the HC would be a real shame but I honestly believe that everyone would be ok.