French & English clubs position themselves for HEC debate

First topic message reminder :

From the Grauniad,,


The leading clubs in the Aviva Premiership in England and Top 14 in France are ready to organise an alternative tournament to the Heineken Cup because they feel European rugby's premier club competition is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.

Leinster and Munster have dominated the Heineken Cup in recent years, winning the trophy between them in five of the last seven seasons with Leinster champions three times in the last four tournaments.

Rivals in England and France believe the success of the Irish sides is largely because they are able to rest players regularly during the RaboDirect Pro 12 campaign as qualification for the following season's Heineken Cup is a virtual formality, something that is not the case in the Aviva Premiership and Top 14.

"Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro 12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification," said Mark McCafferty, the chief executive of Premiership Rugby. "The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month. Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit based – the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French clubs want to ration the Pro 12 involvement to the top six teams in the league, which would run a risk of Scotland and Italy, whose teams currently qualify automatically, not being involved in a Heineken Cup campaign.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro 12," said McCafferty. "It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying. Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup.

"Are the Italian teams ready for the Heineken Cup given their record? It is all put into perspective when some really big names are not involved and the system plays a role in the way Leinster and Munster have dominated the competition in recent years. European Rugby Cup Ltd is dragging its heels and I cannot understand it."

McCafferty acknowledged that the two sides were approaching the problem from different directions. "Some 80% of our business is the Aviva Premiership," he went on. "It is what drives our revenue and gates. I understand the Pro 12 model is different, but we cannot damage our core competition for 20% [the Heineken Cup]. ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are. If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough.

"I feel for the Welsh regions because they are caught in the middle. They have financial issues and you cannot build a business on three home games. Ireland have a central system with the union funding everything apart from the overseas players. Wales are reliant on private money largely and they need a business with 15 home fixtures. I think changing the qualification for Europe would strengthen the RaboDirect."

beshocked wrote:Red stag I agree 20 is a good number.

Could be 8 Pro12,6 AP, 6 Top 14

Top 2 Irish and Welsh, Top Italian and Scottish. Best 2 teams after these.

I'm sorry but I certanly dont think if Celitc sides lose places that English and French should retain their numbers.

At the minimum France and England should drop to 4.

4 English
4 French
6 Rabbo
1 Former Winner
1 Challenge Cup Winner

16 Teams - 4 pools of 4

With 20 teams you could have 4 pools of 5 teams.

I know that means an extra two games but surely some room can be found.

Topping your pool gives you a home quarter final, 2nd gets you an away quarter final. Much more straightforward.

I agree with Welshmushroom, 16 teams would be the optimum, top 2 in each pool to the QF's.

I have no problem with what beshocked and redstag are proposing as long as we all get equall shares in everything, be that places, representation money, tele money or whatever, what I do not like is the idea that one nation gets more because of the nation they come from. Look, if there were a Frenchman, an English man, a Scotsman an Irish man and an Italian man all doing the same jobs on a production line should the English and French men get paid more for doing the same job ? I think we could all agree that no they shouldn't, so each team represented should get the same money at the start of the competition, if they want more then they should get further in the competition thus earning more money. This is the way I see it, I have no problems with change, infact I like to embrace new changes, but it must be done fair, not to suit the French and the English.

beshocked wrote:With 20 teams you could have 4 pools of 5 teams.

I know that means an extra two games but surely some room can be found.

Topping your pool gives you a home quarter final, 2nd gets you an away quarter final. Much more straightforward.

Thats what I would have thought. I think 16 teams is too little.

Its one thing to reduce down the amount of teams. Its another thing entirely to cut it down by that much.

Dowlais, are they all doing the same job though?

My understanding is that England and France put in much more by means of funding but I am a bit in the dark about the funding of it all.

Stag, do you honestly believe the Welsh and Irish Unions would accept a situation where they might only have one team each competing in the competition?

Rava wrote:Stag, do you honestly believe the Welsh and Irish Unions would accept a situation where they might only have one team each competing in the competition?

Yea I could see them going for it if they thought it could protect the HEC.

Do you think that they would prefer to have the 1-6 qualify regardless of nationality (like French/English are proposing)?

beshocked wrote:With 20 teams you could have 4 pools of 5 teams.

I know that means an extra two games but surely some room can be found.

Topping your pool gives you a home quarter final, 2nd gets you an away quarter final. Much more straightforward.

Of course that would be a problem. Because what your essentially saying under that model is that English Rugby should retain 33% of the profits and voting rights in the competition.

I see nothing in current English Rugby which entitles them to this. What your essentially saying is England should retain its 33% stakehold but Ireland,Italy,Wales & Scotland get to share their 33% out between themselves. Seems hardly fair given I would argue that infact the Celtic sides have actually added more to the tournament that English sides have over recent seasons.


Part of me kind of hopes that England and France do end up starting their own competition. Because that would allow Celtic Nations to restructre the season and if they have any sense open a global yearly tournament against S15 franchises, Russia, Japan etc. That would without question bring in revenue. The selling point for S15 rugby would of course be as it would offer them variety as this is something their fans complain about. If it was random pool draws as well it would keep things fresh as I do like this aspect of the HC. You could almost count the days before the English & French would try to get on board of a tournament like that.

red_stag wrote:

Rava wrote:Stag, do you honestly believe the Welsh and Irish Unions would accept a situation where they might only have one team each competing in the competition?

Yea I could see them going for it if they thought it could protect the HEC.

Do you think that they would prefer to have the 1-6 qualify regardless of nationality (like French/English are proposing)?

I think they would be very unhappy if they had only one qualifier as opposed to six from England and France.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais, are they all doing the same job though?

My understanding is that England and France put in much more by means of funding but I am a bit in the dark about the funding of it all.

Stag, the way I saw it was that the unions all stump up the same amount of money, but what the English and French are saying is that they cintribute more due to the fact that they have a larger t.v audience and are more attractive towards getting bigger sponsership deals as they have a wider market than the celtic nations thus they should get more money because of it, at the end of the day, we all need each other to make this work or there would be no HC so in that respect each team or union involved should get the same amount of money.

Here's a question.

Could this fold up the Celtic League?

As Scotland proved in the lead up to the WC that resting players does not mean that they will be ready or do any better when they have to play.
I don't know why there isn't a playoff before the HC could be done the week before the T14 starts and then the strongest teams can make it though.
Also going on the same logic as the Clubs the T14 should have 7 places and Prem 6 and the Rabo 6 as that is half from each league.
Beshocked to say that Connacht don't deserve to be in the HC cause they only won one game when they had this years T14 and Prem champions in their group is stupid. If we went down that line there would be alot of teams that should be put into the Amlin from all countries. Will Exeter not deserve to be in the HC if they only win their home game against Scarlets as they also might give up 9-10 pts against the top two which Connacht didn't.

As people say it comes down to money but would the Anglo french cup not become another LV cup that one side don't take serious and the English have to play it.
I can see it ending in the Rabo only getting 8 teams but keeping their share of votes. They would give 2 to Ire and Wal and 1 to Scot and Italy with the last two on merit which would usually be between Ulster, Blues/Scarlets and Edinburgh. Also stronger teams in the Amlin may mean more Rabo winners so more places

red_stag wrote:Here's a question.

Could this fold up the Celtic League?

Certainly not. It could in fact lead to some restructuring and the inclusion of teams from other Nations.

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd also add that the Rabbo gives our youth a better platform to develop. This develop has resulted in 2 things:-

A greater sense of identity from players to regions/provinces, resulting in more committed displays.

Greater exposure resulting in a quicker development of players. This is directly evident when we see the amount of players getting capped in Wales, Ireland & Scotland.


And on another note. Ireland, Wales & Scotland have clear designs on getting better internationally. They recognise that their top players cannot challenge the best teams in the World if they are asked to play 30+ games a season. England rest their stars in just the same fashion so please dont make it sound like its a Celtic thing. The reality is no side has won the HC with a large foreign contingent on the park and basically English and French leagues are crammed full of them, whereas Celtic sides keep their Foreigners down to a nominal small figure (and in the Irish cases they really have brought some top draw SH stars into their rosters).

Also I would argue that actually the top side in both the French and English leagues do actually have it just as easy in qualifing for the HC. Why? Because the truth is that over 50% of the teams competiting do not have the quality to challenge them over the coarse of a season. This is why largly we tend to see the top 6 actually not varying greatly each year (with maybe the occasional 1 or 2 new addition).

By my count, 10 teams have finished in the top 6 on the premiership in the last 5 seasons:

Leicester - 5
Bath - 4
Quins - 4
LI - 3
Saints - 3
Sharks - 3
Saracens - 3
Gloucester - 2
Wasps - 2
Chiefs - 1

This bears out what we see in most premiership seasons, where there are about 10 teams from the 12 challenging for the top 6.

Here's hoping Rava.

red_stag wrote:Dowlais, are they all doing the same job though?

My understanding is that England and France put in much more by means of funding but I am a bit in the dark about the funding of it all.

Its structered by Gate %. HC Rugby retains a percentage of all the gates at pool stages etc. Now granted as there are more English and French clubs playing the gates should be higher but this does not equate for example when you consider the amount of people at Munster & Leinster home matches for example. But yes in term of gate revenue I would give them a slight edge still.

Now English Rugby will state they brought Sky to the table. Viewing figures here I would love to see. Because I argue this is where the Celtic sides really bring their worth. The reason is that you can pretty much walk into any sports bar in ireland and you will have hundreds of people supporting their local provinces. Its the same with Wales and Edinburgh as there is more national pride at work. English Clubs dont draw the same TV crowds as their audiences are far more local. I dont see Bath fans for example supporting Gloucester or vice versa. There are some parts of the country in England where you will even struggle to find a place to watch HC Rugby. Prime examples for example - entire cornwall/devon area and most of the North East (Newcastle area etc)

How long would an Anglo/French competition last? Would it not stagnate very quickly and become another LV Cup?

Rava wrote:How long would an Anglo/French competition last? Would it not stagnate very quickly and become another LV Cup?

I don't think so - if it attracted crowds and sponsors it would thrive, particularly if there were no HC to compete against it.

mawhis wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd also add that the Rabbo gives our youth a better platform to develop. This develop has resulted in 2 things:-

A greater sense of identity from players to regions/provinces, resulting in more committed displays.

Greater exposure resulting in a quicker development of players. This is directly evident when we see the amount of players getting capped in Wales, Ireland & Scotland.


And on another note. Ireland, Wales & Scotland have clear designs on getting better internationally. They recognise that their top players cannot challenge the best teams in the World if they are asked to play 30+ games a season. England rest their stars in just the same fashion so please dont make it sound like its a Celtic thing. The reality is no side has won the HC with a large foreign contingent on the park and basically English and French leagues are crammed full of them, whereas Celtic sides keep their Foreigners down to a nominal small figure (and in the Irish cases they really have brought some top draw SH stars into their rosters).

Also I would argue that actually the top side in both the French and English leagues do actually have it just as easy in qualifing for the HC. Why? Because the truth is that over 50% of the teams competiting do not have the quality to challenge them over the coarse of a season. This is why largly we tend to see the top 6 actually not varying greatly each year (with maybe the occasional 1 or 2 new addition).

By my count, 10 teams have finished in the top 6 on the premiership in the last 5 seasons:

Leicester - 5
Bath - 4
Quins - 4
LI - 3
Saints - 3
Sharks - 3
Saracens - 3
Gloucester - 2
Wasps - 2
Chiefs - 1

Great stats. So looking at that basically as a given percentage the top 3 on that list have qualified for the HC virtually everytime. Thats still 50% of the teams that qualify that pretty much know they will be playing for HC rugby next year. Throw in the fact that actually the remaining 4 realistic contenders have qualified for it 60%. So actually my statement is fairly on point. Sure there are some occasional new additions but as a whole the same core teams tend to qualify at any rate (these tend to be the best sides in England) with only the fringe teams missing out occasionally.

I thought we already had exposed the MYTH the Rabo teams rest players more than English teams.

The TRUTH is both are restricted to playing the internationals just over 30 times a season, in England, Ireland Wales.

The only difference is that all the RABO teams contain more Internationals that thier English counterparts.

How many players at the World cup came from the Rabo, compared to French or English teams, twicwe as many? three times?

Since our teams are packed full of internationals (that play the same number of games per season as there Counterparts) it appears that we are putting out weakened teams.

What the French and English really want is or the Pro 12 teams to have less international players per team!

Welshmushroom wrote:

mawhis wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd also add that the Rabbo gives our youth a better platform to develop. This develop has resulted in 2 things:-

A greater sense of identity from players to regions/provinces, resulting in more committed displays.

Greater exposure resulting in a quicker development of players. This is directly evident when we see the amount of players getting capped in Wales, Ireland & Scotland.


And on another note. Ireland, Wales & Scotland have clear designs on getting better internationally. They recognise that their top players cannot challenge the best teams in the World if they are asked to play 30+ games a season. England rest their stars in just the same fashion so please dont make it sound like its a Celtic thing. The reality is no side has won the HC with a large foreign contingent on the park and basically English and French leagues are crammed full of them, whereas Celtic sides keep their Foreigners down to a nominal small figure (and in the Irish cases they really have brought some top draw SH stars into their rosters).

Also I would argue that actually the top side in both the French and English leagues do actually have it just as easy in qualifing for the HC. Why? Because the truth is that over 50% of the teams competiting do not have the quality to challenge them over the coarse of a season. This is why largly we tend to see the top 6 actually not varying greatly each year (with maybe the occasional 1 or 2 new addition).

By my count, 10 teams have finished in the top 6 on the premiership in the last 5 seasons:

Leicester - 5
Bath - 4
Quins - 4
LI - 3
Saints - 3
Sharks - 3
Saracens - 3
Gloucester - 2
Wasps - 2
Chiefs - 1

Great stats. So looking at that basically as a given percentage the top 3 on that list have qualified for the HC virtually everytime. Thats still 50% of the teams that qualify that pretty much know they will be playing for HC rugby next year. Throw in the fact that actually the remaining 4 realistic contenders have qualified for it 60%. So actually my statement is fairly on point. Sure there are some occasional new additions but as a whole the same core teams tend to qualify at any rate (these tend to be the best sides in England) with only the fringe teams missing out occasionally.

The point is that over the course of a season there are usually ten clubs from twelve competing for the 6 HC spots. This forces teams to consistently play their top players, instead of resting them a la Rabo. The margins between qualifying and not qualifying are too small for the process to be described as "easy". Sure, clubs like Leicester qualify every year, but they only do it by giving their all all-year round. If they rested players the way Rabo teams do, they'd get overtaken by the other clubs quite quickly, which gives the Rabo teams an advantage.

beshocked wrote:red stag Connacht and Zebre should be in the Amlin Challenge Cup. It's their level. What good does it do these sides if they get repeatedly beaten in the HC?

And what makes you think the Chiefs are up to the level? Because they came in 6th in the AP?

Chiefs are not a HEC team. They are an Amlin team at best. It's their level.

How many points do they expect to get ou of Leinster, Clermont and Scarlets?

I'd say they might get a LBP out of 1 or all 3, but most likely end up with nowt.

Duigers, what is your thing about the Chiefs. You seem to be going on about them on a lot of threads.

I am just pointing out the idiocy of the assertion (which you agree with, very true to your style) that Connacht are not good enough to play in the HEC.

Beshocked does like pointing out that they shouldn't be in the HEC. My question is, why the hell not if the Chiefs have a place??!!!

If the Amlin is Connachts "place" then it sure as hell is Exeter's place as well, as highlighted by Brendan.

But feel free to deny Connacht the privilege of proving you wrong. After all, I can see them breathing heavily down Munsters back this season.

Duigers wrote:

beshocked wrote:red stag Connacht and Zebre should be in the Amlin Challenge Cup. It's their level. What good does it do these sides if they get repeatedly beaten in the HC?

And what makes you think the Chiefs are up to the level? Because they came in 6th in the AP?

Chiefs are not a HEC team. They are an Amlin team at best. It's their level.

Yes, that's precisely why. The chiefs competed in the premiership over the full season and played well enough to prove that they can compete in the HC. If they don't play well next season they'll drop back down again.

Connacht finished 8th in the Rabo, but still qualify, Edinburgh finished 11th but still qualify, Zebre are a completely new team, but they still qualify. The HC should be a competition for the best teams in Europe.

mawhis wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

mawhis wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:I'd also add that the Rabbo gives our youth a better platform to develop. This develop has resulted in 2 things:-

A greater sense of identity from players to regions/provinces, resulting in more committed displays.

Greater exposure resulting in a quicker development of players. This is directly evident when we see the amount of players getting capped in Wales, Ireland & Scotland.


And on another note. Ireland, Wales & Scotland have clear designs on getting better internationally. They recognise that their top players cannot challenge the best teams in the World if they are asked to play 30+ games a season. England rest their stars in just the same fashion so please dont make it sound like its a Celtic thing. The reality is no side has won the HC with a large foreign contingent on the park and basically English and French leagues are crammed full of them, whereas Celtic sides keep their Foreigners down to a nominal small figure (and in the Irish cases they really have brought some top draw SH stars into their rosters).

Also I would argue that actually the top side in both the French and English leagues do actually have it just as easy in qualifing for the HC. Why? Because the truth is that over 50% of the teams competiting do not have the quality to challenge them over the coarse of a season. This is why largly we tend to see the top 6 actually not varying greatly each year (with maybe the occasional 1 or 2 new addition).

By my count, 10 teams have finished in the top 6 on the premiership in the last 5 seasons:

Leicester - 5
Bath - 4
Quins - 4
LI - 3
Saints - 3
Sharks - 3
Saracens - 3
Gloucester - 2
Wasps - 2
Chiefs - 1

Great stats. So looking at that basically as a given percentage the top 3 on that list have qualified for the HC virtually everytime. Thats still 50% of the teams that qualify that pretty much know they will be playing for HC rugby next year. Throw in the fact that actually the remaining 4 realistic contenders have qualified for it 60%. So actually my statement is fairly on point. Sure there are some occasional new additions but as a whole the same core teams tend to qualify at any rate (these tend to be the best sides in England) with only the fringe teams missing out occasionally.

The point is that over the course of a season there are usually ten clubs from twelve competing for the 6 HC spots. This forces teams to consistently play their top players, instead of resting them a la Rabo. The margins between qualifying and not qualifying are too small for the process to be described as "easy". Sure, clubs like Leicester qualify every year, but they only do it by giving their all all-year round. If they rested players the way Rabo teams do, they'd get overtaken by the other clubs quite quickly, which gives the Rabo teams an advantage.

Total Tosh I'm afraid. Leicester & Northampton where robbed of their players in the opening 3 months of the season (and fielded weakend teams in the opening 8 AP games) and still ended up qualifying at a canter not to mention Harelquins and Saracens.

Secondly clearly you dont watch the Rabbo. By October usually the interests of at least a few sides have ended in the HC thus leaving the Rabbo Title the only thing to play for. To suggest that placing in the top 4/5 in the Rabbo is easy is taking away from the quality sides who place there. Infact some places to qualify for the playoff where still up for grabs in the closing weeks of the competition. Munster and Leinster have a hugh amount of quality and depth.

In truth English rugby just does not have the quality within it to really challenge the best sides in Europe. I'm sure the pendilum will swing again at some point as it always does but currently the reason no English side is winning the HC is because to be frank they dont have the quality too. Dont worry us Welsh are in the same boat in the tournament. Hats off to our Irish collegues for a game well played I say.....

In sum, I would put my house on Connacht ending up at the end of the pool stages with more points than the Chiefs and then where will Beshocked be? He has been very wrong about things like this in the past.

And dont give the the whole "but Chiefs have a tougher group than Connacht" BS...

Brendan, again, pointed out that Connacht had the mighty AP champs (who they beat, again because it was too windy lol) and Toulouse in their group the last time out.

Connacht also lost an Amlin SF to the eventual champs. If the chiefs reach those levels then there may be merit to your argument, Stag, that Connacht dont deserve their place and the Chiefs do. But until that happens....eh...

mawhis wrote:

Duigers wrote:

beshocked wrote:red stag Connacht and Zebre should be in the Amlin Challenge Cup. It's their level. What good does it do these sides if they get repeatedly beaten in the HC?

And what makes you think the Chiefs are up to the level? Because they came in 6th in the AP?

Chiefs are not a HEC team. They are an Amlin team at best. It's their level.

Yes, that's precisely why. The chiefs competed in the premiership over the full season and played well enough to prove that they can compete in the HC. If they don't play well next season they'll drop back down again.

Connacht finished 8th in the Rabo, but still qualify, Edinburgh finished 11th but still qualify, Zebre are a completely new team, but they still qualify. The HC should be a competition for the best teams in Europe.

Connacht only qualified becuase an Irish side won the HC. Had an English side won it another meaningless entry from England would be currently in it. Its not like these spots are automatic. With the exception of the Italians and Scottish, us Welsh & Irish still actually have to make the top 3 of our respective countries. Its not like we all qualify regardless of league standing.

Does it really matter which teams qualify though? apart from the best runner up always coming from the Italian groups does it make any material difference to the competition? Would the winners for the last 7 years be any different if only the top 6 teams from each league qualified? No, not at all.

But there would be one massive difference. The English and French unions would get more money.

If we want a purely high quality competition then I think we could base the next version of the Heineken Cup on the historical trend of where the winners actually come from;
England - 4 different clubs have won (Tigers, Wasps, Saints, Bath) so the top 4 from England get in.
France - 2 different clubs have won (Toulouse and Brive) so only the top 2 from the France get in.
Ireland - 3 different clubs have won (Ulster, Munster, Leinster) so the top 3 Irish sides get in.
Wales - no winners, no point bringing them along
Scotland - no winners, no point bringing them along
Italy - no winners, no point bringing them along

Have a draw for who plays who at random (with teams 8 and 9 having to battle out in a pre-QF elimination) then quarters - semi - final. Job done.


Looks like the Top Jeff clubs get 20% of their revenue from the HC. 80% from the domestic will come into trouble with the recession. Target more of the pie from the final 20%. Also try and reduce the pot of clubs in other countries so that buying in foreign players becomes easier as there would be fewer clubs bidding (or bidding with less money).


I fear that the way this will go is that the English will try to get the French to pull out in order to kill the competition altogether. Kind of a cut off your nose to spite your face move.

It will be interesting how SKY and ESPN come into this debate as we get closer to d-day.

Connacht qualify on the back of Leinster's win in the Final. I assume if an English or French team won then they would get an extra place, No?

I think so Rava.

Its great to see Connacht in it even if my sources tell me they will find it tough this year in the tournament.

Wouldnt you agree

Rava wrote:Connacht qualify on the back of Leinster's win in the Final. I assume if an English or French team won then they would get an extra place, No?

Correct, France have 7 teams this year due to Biarritz winning the Amlin. Not sure who the 7th team is mind you...

red_stag wrote:I think so Rava.

Its great to see Connacht in it even if my sources tell me they will find it tough this year in the tournament.

Wouldnt you agree

Ah well, Stag, if your source is saying that they will find it tough, lets just put them back into the Amlin, you know, where they belong?

Right I have been thinking about this and the only thing I can come up with is the following:-

In France and England the clubs have too much power. Their respective unions are scared to death of them as they are all owned by very wealthy businessmen and if they were to go to war with each other the unions would more than likley loose, as we saw with the London Welsh fiasco a few weeks ago, I bet my mortgage that the ERU and the FRU would love to be able to restructure their own leagues and unions in order to maximise the output and compete even more on an European and at the same time world stage, I would also wager that the English Rugby Union would love to reduce then no. of teams in the premiership and ring fence it, I would also argue that they would love to have a regional/provincional setup, but all the owners and fans would be so up in arms and it would be very costly as the power is with the clubs and they would not go down without a fight. So, if they cannot change their own structures surley it would be a lot easier to stick theor oars into other unions and force a change outside their own as it would be a loosing battle to force their own clubs to do what they wanted, the problem is there are to many money men in England and France who hold to much authority within their unions and as a result the unions will not do anything to upset them.

red_stag wrote:Duigers, what is your thing about the Chiefs. You seem to be going on about them on a lot of threads.

His point is as I stated Beshocked said Connacht did not deserve to be in the HC as they only got one win out of six. If we make few teams from the Rabbo the 3 of the french and 2 of the English will look very ordinary. As it is two weakish teams (Cardiff and Edinburgh) that playing a full team in the Rabbo would still be fighting it out for a top six finish. They came first and second with 5 wins each the other teams where left to fight it out for last. There are many teams in the HC which are out of their depth against the top 10 teams. But to say they don't deserve to be there is stupid.

I can see the Rabo settling for 8 places but they can't go much less then that. If you go for less then 8 teams there will be more uneven games.

I think whatever happens it will help the Rabo countries in the long run but may hurt them short term

red_stag wrote:I think so Rava.

Its great to see Connacht in it even if my sources tell me they will find it tough this year in the tournament.

Wouldnt you agree

That would depend on your source though Stag Could they produce a couple more shocks? Quite possibly. Are they better than Chiefs? Don't know that one.

I would say that Cheifs are better but have athough draw like Connacht had last year.

Surely that Treiso are stronger the two 2nd places will come from a Zebre group and one other. This year it should be Lienster the Cmount but last year was a french and english team

To me reducing trh H-cup will destroy the leagues.

Look at the English football prem, top 4 get into Europe, since they get more money the next year they have a better chance of making top 4, untill it becomes that there is a big gap between top 4 and rest of the league that only a rich oilman can make a team move up.

It will happen in the English Prem over time (Tigers are the first to cement thier place there) but as stats above show it getting filimar each year.

Good news is Rabo teams share the money, so even Dragons gain from the H-cup, helping the league be more competative from top to bottom.

LordDowlais wrote:Right I have been thinking about this and the only thing I can come up with is the following:-

In France and England the clubs have too much power. Their respective unions are scared to death of them as they are all owned by very wealthy businessmen and if they were to go to war with each other the unions would more than likley loose, as we saw with the London Welsh fiasco a few weeks ago, I bet my mortgage that the ERU and the FRU would love to be able to restructure their own leagues and unions in order to maximise the output and compete even more on an European and at the same time world stage, I would also wager that the English Rugby Union would love to reduce then no. of teams in the premiership and ring fence it, I would also argue that they would love to have a regional/provincional setup, but all the owners and fans would be so up in arms and it would be very costly as the power is with the clubs and they would not go down without a fight. So, if they cannot change their own structures surley it would be a lot easier to stick theor oars into other unions and force a change outside their own as it would be a loosing battle to force their own clubs to do what they wanted, the problem is there are to many money men in England and France who hold to much authority within their unions and as a result the unions will not do anything to upset them.

Agree 100%.

What I've learned from this thread.

French and English rugby is evil (and possibly eats babies)
Celtish (and Italian) rugby is lovely and cures injured puppies with fairy dust

sugarNspikes wrote:What I've learned from this thread.

French and English rugby is evil (and possibly eats babies)
Celtish (and Italian) rugby is lovely and cures injured puppies with fairy dust

Again, very accurate. I'm sure that the consummation of infants is restricted to the French South West, however.

Kingshu wrote:Look at the English football prem, top 4 get into Europe, since they get more money the next year they have a better chance of making top 4, untill it becomes that there is a big gap between top 4 and rest of the league that only a rich oilman can make a team move up.

Thats just one league.

Compare that to the German football league - there's been 5 different champions in the last 8 years.

To back up my point about the unions making the strenght down the league stronger can be seen if we compare the two leagues

Leinster V Harlequins
Ospreys V Tigers
Munster V Sarries
Glasgow V Saints
Scarlets V Chiefs
Ulster V Sharks
Cardiff V LI
Connacht V Bath
NGD V Gloucester Rugby
Treviso V Worcester
Edinburgh V Wasps
Aironi V Newcastle

I'd say the bottom 6 teams, overall, are better than the bottom 6 in the Prem

also I'd say the favourite in each would be

Leinster
Tigers
Munster
Saints
Scarlets
Ulster
Cardiff
Bath
Gloucester
Terviso
Edinburgh
Newcastle

7-5 to the RABO

red_stag wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Look at the English football prem, top 4 get into Europe, since they get more money the next year they have a better chance of making top 4, untill it becomes that there is a big gap between top 4 and rest of the league that only a rich oilman can make a team move up.

Thats just one league.

Compare that to the German football league - there's been 5 different champions in the last 8 years.

True

but we can look at the English and Spanish Leagues (top 2 in the world) and its the same teams at the top year in year out add the Italian League for top 4 leagues and again same storey (except when teams get caught cheating)

Kingshu wrote:

red_stag wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Look at the English football prem, top 4 get into Europe, since they get more money the next year they have a better chance of making top 4, untill it becomes that there is a big gap between top 4 and rest of the league that only a rich oilman can make a team move up.

Thats just one league.

Compare that to the German football league - there's been 5 different champions in the last 8 years.

True

but we can look at the English and Spanish Leagues (top 2 in the world) and its the same teams at the top year in year out add the Italian League for top 4 leagues and again same storey (except when teams get caught cheating)

Football leagues generally don't put teams under the same financial constraints (salary caps etc) that rugby does. That generally makes it less competitive.

Comparing rugby to association football is like comparing apples and oranges though, they are very different. The amounts of money in the two games are vastly different, and as a result there would not be the same financial gap between the top and bottom teams.

Mickado wrote:

Rava wrote:Connacht qualify on the back of Leinster's win in the Final. I assume if an English or French team won then they would get an extra place, No?

Correct, France have 7 teams this year due to Biarritz winning the Amlin. Not sure who the 7th team is mind you...

It's Biarritz themselves Mick. They only came 9th in the Top 14