Most overrated players

First topic message reminder :

Think of the most overrated players you have ever seen and share them.
I cannot stand when a player is massively overrated and gets credit all the time despite the fact they have done little to deserve it.

Many come to mind but I'm sure you guys have some that just make your skin crawl.

Hate the word "overrated"; overrated by whom exactly? I rate players based on my own judgement and criteria, so any that are "overrated" are just errors of judgement in my own mind. But not really as I'm never wrong.

drsambo1928 wrote:I would have said Donnocha O'Callaghan, John Hayes and despite the potential attack I might get when I reveal the next guy............. oh I'll just say it, Courtney Lawes. He dosent hit people his own size, stop saying he gives out widow making hits. He only hits people who have the number 9 -15 on they're back and when they are at a stand still waiting for a high ball. Okay thats better.

I completely agree with you, Courtney Lawes is so overhyped it's beyond irritating. Constant talk of him being a 'natural athlete' gets dull after a while. As well as him, Chris Ashton is over rated, along with Owen Farrell and D'Arcy

Read is a good shout. Sorry Kiwi's but you all seem to think he is the best in the world. And I understand that you wouldn't pick any player over him, why would you? All Blacks unity is unmatched.

I can't agree with Read. He is so far ahead of most of the 8's in world rugby it's unreal.

gowales wrote:I can't agree with Read. He is so far ahead of most of the 8's in world rugby it's unreal.

i have just never seen him doing anything special, but then he is surrounded by class players. i do rate parisse over him though tbh

Sorry I just don't see how. That said, I can't think of any outstanding no.8s, maybe he is the pick of an average bunch? Burger would be a good 8th man, so would Alberts.

That's because you see Parisee do flashy things because he's in the backline. He's their main playmaker!

Read does the hard yards as well as the carries.

Why do players have to do something special? I don't understand that kind of thinking.

In that sense, he is as good as Lydiate...

Well tbh Read has been pretty quite for a while, probably because of injury. In 2010 and the world cup in particular he was on fire and doing "special" things.

I certainly agree with Sexton though

gowales wrote:That's because you see Parisee do flashy things because he's in the backline. He's their main playmaker!

Read does the hard yards as well as the carries.

Why do players have to do something special? I don't understand that kind of thinking.

yeh fair point, the more i think about it, i guess it speaks more of AB talent that Reid who is in the Top 3 no. 8s looks normal.
and then when i compare him to other 8's, Aus- cant decide who their 8 is, and no standouts, S.A- have alot of talented backrow players who can do a job at 8,

and fair comment about parisse i guess its the fact he is one of italy's few quality players.

Morgannwg wrote:In that sense, he is as good as Lydiate...

Lydiate rarely does make any yards though. Just makes his tackles as always.

Read is a shocking call IMO. He is by far the best and most consistent 8 in the world. He has a phenomenal workrate, putting in some telling tackles and hitting every ruck like a train. On top of this he is one of the best attacking 8s in world rugby. He doesn't have the raw physical strength that the likes of Alberts or Ferris would have, but he has real pace making him a very powerful runner, and he always makes ground. Whether he is carrying in open play or through heavy traffic, he is very dangerous.

On top of all that are his line-out abilities (and restarts) and his leadership. I think he will be the next AB captain for sure.

As for a lack of top quality 8s I totally disagree. I think they have more responsibility than a flanker and if they are anonymous they don't get away with it like a flanker would, who usually get away with it being called "unseen work". I have said before that flanker is the easiest position in rugby. Hence why every rugby fan seems to think their team has the best back row in the world. And pretty much every flanker is world class. I would say that the 8 is therefore the difference.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As for a lack of top quality 8s I totally disagree. I think they have more responsibility than a flanker and if they are anonymous they don't get away with it like a flanker would, who usually get away with it being called "unseen work". I have said before that flanker is the easiest position in rugby. Hence why every rugby fan seems to think their team has the best back row in the world. And pretty much every flanker is world class. I would say that the 8 is therefore the difference.

i worded what i said wrong, i dont mean a lack of top quality 8's but what i mean in comparison to say top quality inside centres etc there arent as many standout 8's
i think you are being unfair on flankers there mate, i play flanker although can play 8 and i can tell you flanker is no way the easiest position in rugby, yes you get alot more freedom to just be a pain but as you can see at the breakdown if you dont have decent flankers then you will get a complete lack of ball, i would say it is one of the hardest positions to play as to be a good flanker you have to read the game well, and use every little advantage you can, while still trying to avoid the ref seeing you and trust me saying getting away with unseen work usually means you are at the bottom of a ruck getting seven bells of 5hit hit out of you for being a pain in the @r$e.

To all those Welsh people who didnt see last weeks test between the All Blacks and the Wallabys, I would suggest that you look at the game tonight, and observe the contribution Kieren Read makes to the Loose forward trio as a unit (if that makes sense), and then come back and tell us who/how your No 8 comes anywhere near bringing the same contribution to the Wales team.

I do however believe that Read is a better right player than left, but the ABs just adjust their coast to coast looseforward obligations to cover that.

Morgannwg wrote:Read is a good shout. Sorry Kiwi's but you all seem to think he is the best in the world. And I understand that you wouldn't pick any player over him, why would you? All Blacks unity is unmatched.

There is a nice irony about those who rebuked your quote. Not one was a Kiwi from what I saw-saved our keyboards some work

welshy6 wrote:
i worded what i said wrong, i dont mean a lack of top quality 8's but what i mean in comparison to say top quality inside centres etc there arent as many standout 8's
i think you are being unfair on flankers there mate, i play flanker although can play 8 and i can tell you flanker is no way the easiest position in rugby, yes you get alot more freedom to just be a pain but as you can see at the breakdown if you dont have decent flankers then you will get a complete lack of ball, i would say it is one of the hardest positions to play as to be a good flanker you have to read the game well, and use every little advantage you can, while still trying to avoid the ref seeing you and trust me saying getting away with unseen work usually means you are at the bottom of a ruck getting seven bells of 5hit hit out of you for being a pain in the @r$e.

I too play(ed) flanker (mostly 6) and I find it by far the easiest position. Less responsibility than any other position. When I return to playing rugby I am hoping to play 8 instead. At flanker it may be very physical and the breakdown may be an intense battle, but no more so than it would be for the rest of the pack. It is not in any shape or form one of the hardest positions to play IMO. Hence why there are about 20 flankers who people say are world class at different times of the year. I would say it is demanding in terms of the fitness aspect however.

I think the breakdown battle is more about the strength of the entire pack than the flankers. See Pocock against NZ last weekend.

Oh FFS Laurie you just did me over pal lol

Wow.

Only read the first page but there is some tosh on this thread. Overrated by whom, by the way? People on here? The media? Coaches? It rather changes the question.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

welshy6 wrote:
i worded what i said wrong, i dont mean a lack of top quality 8's but what i mean in comparison to say top quality inside centres etc there arent as many standout 8's
i think you are being unfair on flankers there mate, i play flanker although can play 8 and i can tell you flanker is no way the easiest position in rugby, yes you get alot more freedom to just be a pain but as you can see at the breakdown if you dont have decent flankers then you will get a complete lack of ball, i would say it is one of the hardest positions to play as to be a good flanker you have to read the game well, and use every little advantage you can, while still trying to avoid the ref seeing you and trust me saying getting away with unseen work usually means you are at the bottom of a ruck getting seven bells of 5hit hit out of you for being a pain in the @r$e.

I too play(ed) flanker (mostly 6) and I find it by far the easiest position. Less responsibility than any other position. When I return to playing rugby I am hoping to play 8 instead. At flanker it may be very physical and the breakdown may be an intense battle, but no more so than it would be for the rest of the pack. It is not in any shape or form one of the hardest positions to play IMO. Hence why there are about 20 flankers who people say are world class at different times of the year. I would say it is demanding in terms of the fitness aspect however.

I think the breakdown battle is more about the strength of the entire pack than the flankers. See Pocock against NZ last weekend.

yes i understand about less responsibility but i dont think that makes it an easier position, its one of the reasons i love playing there, its not just a physical position but requires alot of nous to be an effective flanker, but i guess we will agree to disagree!

and Kia, the more i think about it (along with the peer pressure ) i think i am being harsh on Read, i guess it depends what we are looking for in an 8, no doubt he is a quality 8 but i guess me comparing him to Parisse is unfair as Parisse is a quality player in a poor team whereas read is a quality player in a quality team! and i will be watching the match if i can find a decent stream!!!

ChequeredJersey wrote:Only read the first page but there is some tosh on this thread. Overrated by whom, by the way? People on here? The media? Coaches? It rather changes the question.

Good question. For example, not many rugby fans (including SA fans) I have talked to rate Pierre Spies all that highly and yet his coaches seem to have him as one of the first names on the team sheet.

I always thought Jason Leonard was completely over rated. I know he got a lot of caps but I think that says more about the dearth of England props than anything else.

I think George north needs a big season or he will be in danger of becoming over rated. He just faded out at the end of last year. Hope it was just tiredness.


How anyone can say nonu is over rated is beyond me. He is devastating when on form.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Wow, that's a shock inclusion. Respect your opinion, but in my views, he's one of the best players in the world. He's had a bad run of games recently, but no one's ever consistently world class for every game.

Sure he's a top player, but not in the same class as Richie as some seem to place him

geoff998rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:No I don't think that is true Geoff. I'm not sure that if Earls was English that he'd have won many more caps than Tait has.

The biggest difference between the two is that Tait has been held back by injuries.

Simpson-Daniel for example is a much better player than Earls but has barely got a look in for England.

Complete disagree - see nothings changed whilst I have been away

I'd take Earls over Cueto and Strettle, for example, anyday

As for Simpson-Daniel - none of us can legislate for stupid English selection policy

Good to see you back Geoff

Strettle for sure but Cueto was decent enough in his pomp. Not disagreeing but there wouldn't be much in it for me.

Going to get a lot of hate for this but I think George North is massively overrated. Sorry but I just don't see it, strike rate for such a world class wing is shocking, he doesnt break as many tackles as his speed size suggests he should. Yes he can hold a defense and is good in support but nailed on Lion no don't think so, best winger in the world again not by a long shot. No better or worse than Ashton and he to is overhyped.

On the other hand Halfpenny is the most underrated player around pace,step,vision and a fantastic boot, never gets the credit he deserves and a nailed on Lion(wing or fullback)

The whole Welsh back row has been named by various posters as over hyped, what about the very hyped Irish back row that has come off second best in recent games against Wales (yes R Jones played 6 against Ireland in the last game, who I rate higher than Dan and Toby).

I think it was the entire Irish team that came off second best, not simply the back row. Also, who overhypes the irish back row? I see this one thrown around a lot yet over the past season many irish posters on here have complained about the balance of our back row.

The welsh back row are heavily supported by a scrum half and back line that are bigger than themselves. When you have players like that to break the gain line and support, then you have much less work to do.

aucklandlaurie wrote: To all those Welsh people who didnt see last weeks test between the All Blacks and the Wallabys, I would suggest that you look at the game tonight, and observe the contribution Kieren Read makes to the Loose forward trio as a unit (if that makes sense), and then come back and tell us who/how your No 8 comes anywhere near bringing the same contribution to the Wales team.

I do however believe that Read is a better right player than left, but the ABs just adjust their coast to coast looseforward obligations to cover that.

Read was okay in the first half, putting in some good tackles and carries, just like the rest of the NZ forwards. The second half he was outstanding and one of the best players on the field. He was everywhere, at every breakdown and under the high balls whilst carrying on with the good hits, runs and pick-ups off the back of scrums. Romano and Whitelock were extremely effective but in the 2nd half the spotlight was on Kieran Read. This game was probably the only time he has had my undivided attention.

I'm going to add Fourie Du Preez to the list. Had a couple of outstanding games against low ranked opposition in a big Bokke team, 'tactically' kicks straight from a lineout and people say he's the best in the world. Genia is the best by some distance though. Aaron Smith looked good today too.

Not read the whole thread but most overrated? Jonny Wilkinson. A good defensive 10, a great kicker but no where near good enough as an attacking forcce. Good player my all means but not the great player he is often lauded as

records and wins at the highest level is what wilko is all about. Overarted is an overused word, but in wilkos case its like comparing apples with mars bars

TJ wrote:Not read the whole thread but most overrated? Jonny Wilkinson. A good defensive 10, a great kicker but no where near good enough as an attacking forcce. Good player my all means but not the great player he is often lauded as

I mentioned that already if you had read the thread. I put him in my most over-rated list with Jonah Lomu. The interesting thing to me is that most of the hype about over-rated players is generated and perpetuated in the British media. Journalists with only a fringe grasp on the subtlety of the game. Putting over the winning drop goal in England's sole successfuly world cup makes him an instant legend to the tabloids regardless of the reality. Similarly Lomu never performed against anybody quite like he did against England. This is a product of the large and afluent following of rugby in that country and not an attack on their general psyche. Let us be honest that no country other than ENG with the desire to replace St Jonny would have built up Cipriani in the wholly unquestionably impossible way that they did.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

TJ wrote:Not read the whole thread but most overrated? Jonny Wilkinson. A good defensive 10, a great kicker but no where near good enough as an attacking forcce. Good player my all means but not the great player he is often lauded as

I mentioned that already if you had read the thread. I put him in my most over-rated list with Jonah Lomu. The interesting thing to me is that most of the hype about over-rated players is generated and perpetuated in the British media. Journalists with only a fringe grasp on the subtlety of the game. Putting over the winning drop goal in England's sole successfuly world cup makes him an instant legend to the tabloids regardless of the reality. Similarly Lomu never performed against anybody quite like he did against England. This is a product of the large and afluent following of rugby in that country and not an attack on their general psyche. Let us be honest that no country other than ENG with the desire to replace St Jonny would have built up Cipriani in the wholly unquestionably impossible way that they did.

Pains to say I agree with a lot of this

Not the bit about Johnny being overrated though. He just fits with a specific game plan. Same as most players, frankly

anotherworldofpain wrote:

TJ wrote:Not read the whole thread but most overrated? Jonny Wilkinson. A good defensive 10, a great kicker but no where near good enough as an attacking forcce. Good player my all means but not the great player he is often lauded as

I mentioned that already if you had read the thread. I put him in my most over-rated list with Jonah Lomu. The interesting thing to me is that most of the hype about over-rated players is generated and perpetuated in the British media. Journalists with only a fringe grasp on the subtlety of the game. Putting over the winning drop goal in England's sole successfuly world cup makes him an instant legend to the tabloids regardless of the reality. Similarly Lomu never performed against anybody quite like he did against England. This is a product of the large and afluent following of rugby in that country and not an attack on their general psyche. Let us be honest that no country other than ENG with the desire to replace St Jonny would have built up Cipriani in the wholly unquestionably impossible way that they did.

Good post, great English AWOP. No grey area in that. Spooky.

I think you miss the point..

No one rates jonny as the best attacking option.. So who is overrating him?. he is only rated for what he did or does..

Its about having the most effective option- and he was!. This is a player that is respected and rated all over the world.

TO add.. All the aussie or kiwi or saffa fans used to say - oh crumbs we are playing wilko again(not england)- 'one man team', if only we had wilko etc etc.. The rest of the world built him up as much(in fact much more) than what britains media did..

Many folk on here have called him a great fly half and the best in the world at his time. In order to be so he must be an attacking threat. He was not. Thus he is overrated by many.

" In order to be so he must be an attacking threat"

thats a ridiculasly black and white logic

He was a cog in a team. he was an effective part- a diamond cog if you will. It was never gonna break down.. Everyone new that and the fact is blaming british media for anything else is BS , it was allways more a perception from the rest of the world that Johnny was the only world class player we had- which i personally dont agree with anyway!

Anyway When i break my logic down it was more about the rest of the team being under rated over JW being over rated!

The question that should be asked about Johnny Wilkinson is this, would you have him in your side ? For me the answer undoubtedly is YES. I think a lot of others would agree as well, he was in his pomp World Class, he proved that by the way he took that drop goal in the 2003 wc final. You cannot execute that sort of move whilst under so much pressure and not be world class. O.K he did not set the world alight with dazzling runs and silky side steps, but he was a rock in defence and he never missed a kick at goal, he also created a lot for the likes of Will Greenwood by executing his passes at just the right moment as he was not scared of being clobbered, which might have cost him through injuries over the years, Johnny will never be overrated in my eyes.

And there is the overrating in one post. He was not world class. To be world class he would have to be able to unlock defences with silky skills with the ball in hand.

mystiroakey wrote:Anyway When i break my logic down it was more about the rest of the team being under rated over JW being over rated!

Indeed - Martin Johnson and the forwards won them the world cup by being able to march down the field at will.

Why would he have to be able to unlock defences at will to be World Class? That logic doesn't follow. World class means that if there was a World Team he would have or press for a place. It has nothing specifically to do with the completeness of his game or how attractive you think it was. You have been spoiled by Dan Carter into thinking that every 10 must be like him, which is difficult as he is arguably the greatest FH ever

Because that is the job of a fly half! To unlock defenses .

I respectfully disagree. The job of a flyhalf is to make a decision on what to the do with the ball and then start the execution of that plan. Johnny utilised the backs outside him just fine, the vintage of 2000-3 were not exactly lacking for tries scored through the backs

the job of any player is to be part of a winning team. its to win games. england won 40 out of 43 games in that period. He did his job perfectly. And it could be argued that JW was the difference between the other sides around at that time. The top teams being similar but england having the exeptional kicker and thinker at fly half. There is no predetermined role for any position in rugby or football or cricket, or any team sport- the managment put the players in that works for the system(well the best teams do anyway)

And respectfully I disagree. England would have been far better with a creative player at 10. Still - its one of those things that people will never agree on and I do agree that he was the player for the gameplan or the gameplan for the player. however he was easy to nullify as an attacking thread cos of his lack of speed. simply put him under pressure he retraed behind the pack allowing defenses to close up. 2 parts of the flyhalfs game he was world class at ( kicking and defence) in attack? Nowhere near.