Most overrated players

First topic message reminder :

Think of the most overrated players you have ever seen and share them.
I cannot stand when a player is massively overrated and gets credit all the time despite the fact they have done little to deserve it.

Many come to mind but I'm sure you guys have some that just make your skin crawl.

Don Alfonso wrote:That's the ticket. Brook no dissent. What do these people think this is, some kind of public forum for non-expert, partisan rugby fans to discuss opnions?

Now that's a crazy thought

Don Alfonso wrote:It may shock some posters to know that a player can be both very good and over-rated. There are ludicrous amounts of hype around some players. Saying you don’t think it’s warranted is not that same as saying you think they’re useless.

Spot on Don .

rodders wrote:OK yous are right he's useless...send him to Ulster sure....

Not useless, just overrated!

He's also not South African

There's many in the NH who are overrated I would say, but many very high quality players as well.

Sticking to the SH, i'm sick of hearing from Ozzie and Kiwi commentators: "and there's Ben Alexander (also insert B Robinson) one of the best LH (TH) in the world"

They may be good but only by Ozzie propping standards. Likewise Tuilagi, he's only young and needs time to develop, but he's exceptional by English centre standards already.

Thomond wrote:He's also not South African

Good point send him to (New) Munster(land) he'd fit right in .....

We already have a slow scrum half who is big and physical thank you very much. Do you not remember Peter Stringer came back this year......

Rodders / Thomond

Reading your comments about Earls, I was thinking we could easily substitute the name Matthew Tait* into the same comments. A good and versatile player, so very handy around a squad (especially touring / RWC) but not living up to early suggestions of being a potentially top class attacking player.

*Of course the other issue with Tait in particular is that he was clearly constructed of the finest porcellain, so gets broken every time he's tackled.

Earls has more potential than Tait and has achieved far more than him too. Earls has some kinks in his game but I wouldn't call them major, he shouldn't start for Ireland unless he shows some improvement though.

Yeah thats a reasonable comparison dummy_half, for me anyways.

Earls doesn't struggle physically but yeah for me, as with Tait, he hasn't really delivered at the top level, or found any consistancy, despite breaking through quite young and looking the business.

Agree with Thom that Earls has maybe done a bit more so far but the comparison has some merit.

Ouch Tait = Earls...

You are joking

Tait is an average club player who has yet/never will cut it as a full International
Earls is an established International who has yet/never will cut it as a Lion.

Earls is not world class but he is on a different (superior) level to Tait

Martin Johnson
Pierre Spies
Jonah Lomu
Jonny Wilkinson
Patrick Lambie
Gavin Henson
Danny Cipriani

No I don't think that is true Geoff. I'm not sure that if Earls was English that he'd have won many more caps than Tait has.

The biggest difference between the two is that Tait has been held back by injuries.

Simpson-Daniel for example is a much better player than Earls but has barely got a look in for England.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Martin Johnson
Pierre Spies
Jonah Lomu
Jonny Wilkinson
Patrick Lambie
Gavin Henson
Danny Cipriani

Those 3 yes. Lambie is young, but is a proven talent so it would be unfair to say he's overhyped at the moment I think. I reckon he's a class act. THe others though....are you serious?

There were a lot more complete rugby players on the wing than Jonah so in terms of a winger's skill set he was possibly overrated yeah. But as a strike weapon? There was no other. Would be on most people's all time teams at 11 despite his deficiencies in other areas.

I like Wilkinson a lot but his running and creativity aren't at the level of John, Ella and Carter. Great on defence though. Wonder if he watched Henry Honiball much-looks very much like an influence.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Martin Johnson
Pierre Spies
Jonah Lomu
Jonny Wilkinson
Patrick Lambie
Gavin Henson
Danny Cipriani

Any interesting selcetion. Cipriani, Henson and Spies I would certainly agree are currently overrated. Danny has the potential to become a very good FH if he finds the minerals with which to defend.

As far as Lambie, Johnson, Wilkinson and Lomu are concerned I have reservations over your mental stability. Johnson and Eales are the two best second rows of the modern era, Wilkinson was a legend of his time and had far more attacking nouse than given credit for. Lomu is hardly overrated given him impact on the game. Perhaps his technical skills may not have been the level of some, but his impact and effectiveness cannot be denied.

I defientley agree about Pierre Spies, hes just a gym rat who never wants to actually play to the duties of his position and someone said Sergio Parrisse, that has opened my eyes slightly, he does always look for the glory moments.

WRT Lomu - when you are 6ft 5, 20 stone, strong as an ox and can run comfortably sub 11s for 100m, a few technical deficiencies can be overlooked.

I do wonder whether he would still be such a stand-out performer given how much opposing defences have improved in the last 15 years, but at the time he was at his peak he was a phenomenon.

I'm not sure whether Cipriani is over-rated as such. I think most sensible observers see him as being a naturally gifted player, but one who is incredibly frustrating because:
1 - He doesn't have the heart in defence
2 - He keeps maknig the same mistakes (e.g. charged down kicks)
3 - He appears more interested in celebrity than in dealing with issues 1 and 2.

A couple of years ago, I think over-rated was a reasonable comment (being based on one performance), but the hype has died down and I think expectations are on a more realistic level, i.e. that he will need a good season with Sale to force his way back into the reckoning for the England 10 shirt.

The Beast I thought for awhile was a little overrated too, but calling Lomu overrated, thats not right yo

dummy_half wrote:WRT Lomu - when you are 6ft 5, 20 stone, strong as an ox and can run comfortably sub 11s for 100m, a few technical deficiencies can be overlooked.

I do wonder whether he would still be such a stand-out performer given how much opposing defences have improved in the last 15 years, but at the time he was at his peak he was a phenomenon.

I don't think he would plough through defences like he did in 1995, even towards the end of the 90's he wasn't doing that, but if you look at guys like Ferris, O'Brien, Chabal, Tuilagi, North etc. and how effective they are as ball carriers and consider Lomu was bigger, stronger and faster than any of them then you'd imagine he'd still take some stopping.

Chjw add Matfield to those two. I can't separate them-they're all champions.

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:It may shock some posters to know that a player can be both very good and over-rated. There are ludicrous amounts of hype around some players. Saying you don’t think it’s warranted is not that same as saying you think they’re useless.

Spot on Don .

That is exactly what I was saying about my choices, I even explained why a few posts later, it's just that certain posters on here just decide to ignore some parts of what I have typed just to have a pop.

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:It may shock some posters to know that a player can be both very good and over-rated. There are ludicrous amounts of hype around some players. Saying you don’t think it’s warranted is not that same as saying you think they’re useless.

Spot on Don .

That is exactly what I was saying about my choices, I even explained why a few posts later, it's just that certain posters on here just decide to ignore some parts of what I have typed just to have a pop.

Given that you said that Cian Healy was a 'penalty machine and a liability' whenever he came up against a decent scrummager and Dan Cole had 'done nothing of note' it could be argued that you were the one having a pop. Still, I'm sure your Lions XV might as well be a Wales XV bursting with World Class Talent.

I rate both Healy and Cole. Healy gave NZ a real wake up call and was fantastic around the park in June, and I think Mike Cron will have to do some serious work if we are to best the English scrum in November.

disneychilly wrote:Chjw add Matfield to those two. I can't separate them-they're all champions.

Agreed.

sugarNspikes wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:It may shock some posters to know that a player can be both very good and over-rated. There are ludicrous amounts of hype around some players. Saying you don’t think it’s warranted is not that same as saying you think they’re useless.

Spot on Don .

That is exactly what I was saying about my choices, I even explained why a few posts later, it's just that certain posters on here just decide to ignore some parts of what I have typed just to have a pop.

Given that you said that Cian Healy was a 'penalty machine and a liability' whenever he came up against a decent scrummager and Dan Cole had 'done nothing of note' it could be argued that you were the one having a pop. Still, I'm sure your Lions XV might as well be a Wales XV bursting with World Class Talent.

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

LordDowlais wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:It may shock some posters to know that a player can be both very good and over-rated. There are ludicrous amounts of hype around some players. Saying you don’t think it’s warranted is not that same as saying you think they’re useless.

Spot on Don .

That is exactly what I was saying about my choices, I even explained why a few posts later, it's just that certain posters on here just decide to ignore some parts of what I have typed just to have a pop.

Given that you said that Cian Healy was a 'penalty machine and a liability' whenever he came up against a decent scrummager and Dan Cole had 'done nothing of note' it could be argued that you were the one having a pop. Still, I'm sure your Lions XV might as well be a Wales XV bursting with World Class Talent.

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

You've literally just answewred your question about Dan Cole. What has he done of note? He destroyed Ireland's scrum in the most recent 6N, and has faired so well against everyone else. He rarely gets beaten up front in scrums now, and he's definitely one of the most effective breakdown props going (alongside Healy).

Don't understand the reactions to my Lawes pick (well it was one I agreed with actually). Go make yourself some coffee.

Lawes is very overrated by fans and the media. For Northampton he runs around like an extra flanker, makes some good tackles but doesn't really have an overall impact on the game. I'm not sure I have seen his lineout work often enough to judge whether he is a good technician. He has never stood out in an England jersey so I don't understand the hype surrounding him. England always have big, tough 2nd row forwards coming off the production line. They have always worked out well, stick to that instead of looking for Ivan Drago's.

LordDowlais wrote:

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

Some say that about Gethin Jenkins, you wouldn't agree with that would you? I think it's utter tosh. I also think what you say about Healy is utter tosh. The Lions front row has some great strength in depth if Healy, Jenkins, Jones and Cole are on board. Not sure who would be starting yet though. Jenkins isn't as fit as he used to be and that could count against him.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Martin Johnson
Pierre Spies
Jonah Lomu
Jonny Wilkinson
Patrick Lambie
Gavin Henson
Danny Cipriani

AWOP, I guess you are just seeking attention.

Morgannwg wrote:Don't understand the reactions to my Lawes pick (well it was one I agreed with actually). Go make yourself some coffee.

Lawes is very overrated by fans and the media. For Northampton he runs around like an extra flanker, makes some good tackles but doesn't really have an overall impact on the game. I'm not sure I have seen his lineout work often enough to judge whether he is a good technician. He has never stood out in an England jersey so I don't understand the hype surrounding him. England always have big, tough 2nd row forwards coming off the production line. They have always worked out well, stick to that instead of looking for Ivan Drago's.

You said he was 'the worst 2nd row in England'. That's what was a bit silly.

Out of the 2nd rows in England contention he is joint worst with Botha. But yeah that was silly, probably as silly as the hype he gets.

Fair = fare actually.

Morgannwg wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

Some say that about Gethin Jenkins, you wouldn't agree with that would you? I think it's utter tosh. I also think what you say about Healy is utter tosh. The Lions front row has some great strength in depth if Healy, Jenkins, Jones and Cole are on board. Not sure who would be starting yet though. Jenkins isn't as fit as he used to be and that could count against him.

And I would agree with them, but there are few Scottish loose heads that I rate before either of them, also think Gethin has a little bit more experience than Cain Healy.

P.s I think at the moment Paul James is the best loosie in GB and Ireland.

Morgannwg wrote:Out of the 2nd rows in England contention he is joint worst with Botha. But yeah that was silly, probably as silly as the hype he gets.

That's not what you said though. You really should read your own posts before pressing 'Send'.

LordDowlais wrote:P.s I think at the moment Paul James is the best loosie in GB and Ireland.

Good to have a bit of humour!

LordDowlais wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

Some say that about Gethin Jenkins, you wouldn't agree with that would you? I think it's utter tosh. I also think what you say about Healy is utter tosh. The Lions front row has some great strength in depth if Healy, Jenkins, Jones and Cole are on board. Not sure who would be starting yet though. Jenkins isn't as fit as he used to be and that could count against him.

And I would agree with them, but there are few Scottish loose heads that I rate before either of them, also think Gethin has a little bit more experience than Cain Healy.

But australia dont have a good scrum. So cian is the perfect man for the number 1 spot because of his play in the loose

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

O.k, please tell me what Dan Cole has achieved in his long illustrious career. Look I am not saying he will never achieve anything as he is still young and has bags of potential, and he is a decent player even at his young age, but to here people go on about him as a Lions test starter it just smacks of over hyping. It is the same with Cain Healy being touted as a Lions starter when there at least two better players in Scotland , look I am not looking for an argument I am just giving my opinion, Cain Healy is very good in open play and in the loose but when it comes to scrummaging, which is his primary function for his position, against a decent front row he comes up wanting and will give away penalties. As an Englishman you whitnesed this for yourself in the last six nations when your forwards walked all over him at scrum time, come on, please stop picking fights mun.

Some say that about Gethin Jenkins, you wouldn't agree with that would you? I think it's utter tosh. I also think what you say about Healy is utter tosh. The Lions front row has some great strength in depth if Healy, Jenkins, Jones and Cole are on board. Not sure who would be starting yet though. Jenkins isn't as fit as he used to be and that could count against him.

And I would agree with them, but there are few Scottish loose heads that I rate before either of them, also think Gethin has a little bit more experience than Cain Healy.

But australia dont have a good scrum. So cian is the perfect man for the number 1 spot because of his play in the loose

Cannot argue with you there boy bach.

Dan Lydiate - tackles a lot and has a good work rate but so does ever other International 6.

rodders wrote:No I don't think that is true Geoff. I'm not sure that if Earls was English that he'd have won many more caps than Tait has.

The biggest difference between the two is that Tait has been held back by injuries.

Simpson-Daniel for example is a much better player than Earls but has barely got a look in for England.

Complete disagree - see nothings changed whilst I have been away

I'd take Earls over Cueto and Strettle, for example, anyday

As for Simpson-Daniel - none of us can legislate for stupid English selection policy

priestland, north and warburton

sugarNspikes wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Out of the 2nd rows in England contention he is joint worst with Botha. But yeah that was silly, probably as silly as the hype he gets.

That's not what you said though. You really should read your own posts before pressing 'Send'.

Yeah but I'm saying it now.

Jason Robinson

Courtney Lawes

Some very bald comments on here all of a sudden.

gareth edwards, garerth jenkins

I admit to throwing a couple in there for a bite..


personally I hate 'overrated' debates , I dont think they acheive anything anyway! I dont think any players are overrated!, they are what they are!

i am about to get shot down in flames here but ah well here goes

Ireland

Sexton- an amazing fly half for leinster no doubt but for ireland he is never been able to replicate that form (i understand irish posters it is down to kidney tactics but for ireland he is overrated)
The Irish backrow- as individuals they are all very good players but all get overhyped.

Wales
Welsh backrow- would say that after a good world cup they are getting overrated no doubt alot of potential and all very good players.

England
Lawes- to begin with anyway as been out for such a long time
Ashton- i guess in fairness i can understand why, very good try record but not been good this season.

New Zealand
Kieran Read- this wont go down well but when i have seen the AB's play he has never stood out too me, although probably down to the whole business of being in such a quality side.

S.A- would have said up until this summer Habana, he has the speed but hadnt seen much of him receantly.

players who i dont think are overrated
Manu Tuilagi- quality player with bags of potential, i guess maybe slightly overhyped but this is more due to the fact england have the potential for a world class centre
Wilkinson- he is one of the players i respect the most (and that is a huge compliment from me)
Henson- overhyped early on but then the hype was justified in 2005 and 08
Phillips- most welsh posters have been wanting a freshen up here and cant see how people overrate him
Priestland- again same with priestland many people questioning him after a very good world cup, maybe got overhyped post world cup but


While all the players i have named here are very talented i do believe they get overrated just a tad.
also i dont watch much SH rugby as unable to but just from the limited bits i have seen!

DISCLAIMER- all comments seen above are welshy's own views and should not be used as a stereotypical welsh persons views!!!!