Not much more to say, is there?

So it has come to pass, Heyneke Meyer has convinced me there is little hope for evolution in Springbok rugby, at least not with the lot that started the Rugby Championship campaign in the first two tests against Argentina.

I'll concede two facts, one is that Argentina is a tough place to tour and two, there are a lot of injuries to crucial players.

Rucks

It is common sense that two players will not physically overpower six players. It is the nature of physics, it is pure logic. It is also pure logic that when the half back is wasting time behind the ruck, those two stationary players in the ruck will not withstand the assualt of superior numbers hitting the breakdown with force.

This logic extend to players isolating themselves by running away from their support, or players not running support lines to arrive at the tackle area early enough.

But the most logical conclusion that somehow went amiss on Saturday evening in Mendoza was the fact that no Springbok player realised the best way to avoid being overturned or dominated at the breakdown was to avoid it.

Lineouts.

As recent as the Quarter Final in the World Cup, the Springboks conceded a penalty in the last minutes against Australia for taking down a player in the line out, and subsequently lost the match. However they haven't learnt. Last might was a repeat of the same foul, this time committed by Flip v d Merwe, courtesy of his first action when he came onto the field.

Andries Bekker organised the SA line out with the efficiency of a misfiring V8 and the general control was simply woeful.

Attack.

You can't say the South Africans didn't try to run with ball in hand, but you can argue it is devoid of any ideas of how to break defences. The problem is they do only one move, 9 to 10, 10 to 12, 12 to 13, who runs diagonally across the pitch, who then seldom has the urge to pass to a support player or simply runs them into the sideline where there is no space. Of course there are also the times when the insistence of Meyer requires a backrow forward to run at the defensive line to setup a ruck, which inevitably turns into another turn over or slow attacking ball for SA.

The Argentine defensive line was borderline offside the whole evening and their rush defence created an ideal opportunity for the little grubber or chip kick behind and yet there was evidence of any intelligent play by any backline player to recognise it.

There was also no evidence of any runner off the shoulder or offloads.

In one move Frans Steyn saw an overlap out wide and fired a pass to Andries Bekker who had but to draw a defender and pass to the inside and it was game on, but alas the neanderthal in him decided otherwise the move ended with a lineout to Argentina.

The kicking on the night was either too long, or simply poorly chased.

The only players that covered themselves in any glory were Etzebeth and Pienaar.

Etzebeth seemed like the lone wolf in a losing cause at the breakdowns and Ruan Pienaar ensured some accurate and quick service at the base of the rucks.

Meyer.

I get that there are injured players that won't be available for some time, Burger, Pietersen, Smith, Bismarck, Oosthuizen and Spies, but it is time that Meyer smell the roses.

For all intent and purposes the Rugby Championship is gone, for the Springboks to have made a charge at the trophy they had to have ten log points after their first two matches, the only realistic way for them to win now is to beat the Wallabies and All Blacks with four try bonus points and frankly after last night we have seen little evidence that it could happen.

Thus reality needs to dawn on Meyer. Hougaard has an inaccurate and inconsistent pass and his box kicking is under par for an international player, thus either find space for him at the wing, or drop him.

Morne Steyn simply won't evolve the Bok gameplan, I really don't care what anyone else believes, Steyn isn't the man.

Frans Steyn needs to lose weight and gain some pace, even with his charge down try you could see the man has lost pace.

Jean de Villiers is one dimensional and creates nothing, zero, zip, nada. Well you get the picture.

Habana is useless on the right wing, Mvovo with his little dance when he runs at the opposition only succeeds in him losing pace, either go full tilt at the defence or pass the ball.

Zane Kirchner, I can only ask for the umpteenth time, why the bloody hell is he there? He must be the most predictable full back there is, he either kicks or runs untill he is tackled.

Meyer must clean ship now.

Bring in the young guns, let them gain experience, it isn't as if the current backline will win you many matches. Again last night in the last ten minutes we kick possession away. WHAT THE HELL?

Bekker must be replaced by Juandre Kruger, bring in Duane Vermeulen, Alberts is wasted if he isn't at 7, Potgieter is useless.

Argentina.

They played the Bok gameplan better, they hit the rucks with more numbers and more force, they do play negatively however and you need to avoid rucks and mauls against them, referees will penalise them more and more, watch, they are on the ground at rucks, they roll around mauls and play the ball on the ground, they won't get away with this many more matches.

They didn't deserve a draw last night, they deserved the win. But then at this stage the Boks need all the luck they can muster,it isn't as if we are going to scare any, are we?

Yes there is, Australia and New Zealand could go to Argentina and get beaten..

I doubt OZ and NZ can be as poor as us.

Agree biltong. For me Meyer has added nothing to this side. They're simply more beatable because the players that played last year aren't playing this year.


The boks scored the steyn try during the 64th minute. The fact that they couldn't score again reconfirms the likelihood that unless SA are leading they won't win at this level. They don't have a gamelplan based on scoring tries. They plan to do this...or that...and even that over there... but none of it is singly targeted at scoring tries.

That was the area of biggest potential after pdv left. Unfortunately its now joined by a need to improve the pack.

I still take it back to Eden park in 2010 when the ABs gave SA a front seat view of how the game needs to be played.

They've not taken in any of it. Meyer seems to have sat through the pdv era thinking...'I can do the same thing much better'

Get an attack coach in. A real one. Its not the players, its the gameplan. It needs perfection to even compete.

Feel for you though. How the obvious is missed for so long by seemingly intelligent people is beyond me.

Biltong, I'm not sure. I think Australia is the most at risk in Argentina. They are struggling to generate width in the attack and lack authority in the tight 5. Given a narrow pitch, a strong Argentinian forward pack playing at home they may struggle. especially if they suffer injuries.

It looks as though you lot are going to find out what it is like to go to Argentina and get a bloody nose, if you want to win down there then you have to be prepared to fight as I whitnesed when Wales went down there a few years back and they were all at it. For some reason, when the Argies are at home they are a completley different animal, just pray that you do not have to go to places like Patagonia where the crowds are even more hostile.

For me, the frustrating highlight of the Bok's rigid gameplan was that in the last ten minutes, when the scores were level; when ARG had proved that with their pick and drive they could slow down and maintain possession at will; when SA needed to score points: what do we do, kick the ball to the Argies, and let them slow the game down!!!!! Why! Why! Why!

And ol' Morne, who is supposedly in the team for his kicking, misses two.....(5 points: which would have made a difference to the scoreline!!! - although we didn't deserve to win, so it is probably fairer this way)

Taylorman wrote:
The boks scored the steyn try during the 64th minute. The fact that they couldn't score again reconfirms the likelihood that unless SA are leading they won't win at this level. They don't have a gamelplan based on scoring tries. They plan to do this...or that...and even that over there... but none of it is singly targeted at scoring tries.

I still puzzled by the Bok gameplan. Even if the kick chase is plan A, it patently wasn't working! and that was evident from early on. What was also evident from the second half, was that when we ran the ball at the Argies, we looked far more dangerous (at least, once Pienaar was on). So why did we persist in the game plan that was not working!!! Why! Why? Why!

didnt see the game but i am shocked- also is this 2 draws on the spin for the boks- odds on that are massive!

2 out of 3 - i forgot they beat argentina the other day

Draws are much more likely if you play the kicking game! Just like in that other kicking game with the round ball.

Biltong I agree,

I thought Heineke would bring some new ideas to the table, but he isn't doing it. Maybe it is because he thinks our ball skills isn't up to it as we have relied on sheer strength since always. I saw a school boy the other day and he was 110kgs in Grade 11. They have that mind set that they can run through everything. It is just at the highest level they can't, because they will be matched. I think the whole springbok thinking need to change from school level.

PDivvy did try to make us more attacking in 2008 if I remember correctly and that didn't work out all to well for us, except that we got our first win in the house of pain.

There were some passages of play where we looked very dangerous yesterday, but that was by far in the minority.

I have no idea how to fix this, it just seems much deeper than just the approach. It is currently the South African rugby system that needs to change.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Draws are much more likely if you play the kicking game! Just like in that other kicking game with the round ball.

Didnt see the game- didnt realise it was. But then i am not suprised. Argentina could become a mini fortress- we also know how hard italy are at home. So should we all be that shocked.. I think its gonna be more likely that aus have a tough time in argentina than not as well.

FerN wrote:Biltong I agree,

I thought Heineke would bring some new ideas to the table, but he isn't doing it. Maybe it is because he thinks our ball skills isn't up to it as we have relied on sheer strength since always. I saw a school boy the other day and he was 110kgs in Grade 11. They have that mind set that they can run through everything. It is just at the highest level they can't, because they will be matched. I think the whole springbok thinking need to change from school level.

PDivvy did try to make us more attacking in 2008 if I remember correctly and that didn't work out all to well for us, except that we got our first win in the house of pain.

There were some passages of play where we looked very dangerous yesterday, but that was by far in the minority.

I have no idea how to fix this, it just seems much deeper than just the approach. It is currently the South African rugby system that needs to change.

Although he only needs to watch the Sharks or the Cheetah's to see that we do have ball skills...Meyer just needs to choose the players who possess them.

If Meyer isn't going to choose Brussow at fetcher and we have a problem with our breakdown area just because he is to small, why do you think he will choose other "smaller" guys?

I really wouldnt wory about this result at all. its not a big deal..just a really tough place to travel clearly as is italy

Mystirokey, it isn't the result that bugs me.

Our gameplan has bugged me for a long, long time, and now it seems it will for the next four years.

Without those injured players we have no intelligence in attack.

Biltong wrote:I doubt OZ and NZ can be as poor as us.

The Aussies have lost a home game so they're all but out of the running for the title. SA have "only" (in the sense that it's less than expected pre-tourney) picked up 6 points vs Arg. However NZ picked up 8 vs Aus. If the Boks can win in Aus, and either win or pick up a losing bonus point in NZ then there's lots to play for in their home games. I'd expect the ABs to pick up 9 points across the 2 Pumas games, but the Pumas could still have a say there.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

FerN wrote:Biltong I agree,

I thought Heineke would bring some new ideas to the table, but he isn't doing it. Maybe it is because he thinks our ball skills isn't up to it as we have relied on sheer strength since always. I saw a school boy the other day and he was 110kgs in Grade 11. They have that mind set that they can run through everything. It is just at the highest level they can't, because they will be matched. I think the whole springbok thinking need to change from school level.

PDivvy did try to make us more attacking in 2008 if I remember correctly and that didn't work out all to well for us, except that we got our first win in the house of pain.

There were some passages of play where we looked very dangerous yesterday, but that was by far in the minority.

I have no idea how to fix this, it just seems much deeper than just the approach. It is currently the South African rugby system that needs to change.

Although he only needs to watch the Sharks or the Cheetah's to see that we do have ball skills...Meyer just needs to choose the players who possess them.

Well. Then he needs to coach them and clearly meyer has neither the interest nor pedigree to coach such players...or he would have picked them by now. He doesn't see ball skills as an important part of his gameplan.

Hitting ARG first up on their entry to the 4N was always going to be tough. Not just because ARG is a tough place to tour, but because ARG are a team who have historically played with masscive emotion and commitment when technically out mastched. They can't keep going to the well week in and week out though! Like a Welsh team of the 90's they will start with a massive onslaught and then tire towards the end of the competition, making them ripe for NZ and more so AUS to dismantle. It's just tough luck for SA to be in the particular boat this year.

Second, the breakdown was a complete mess. ARG have a clever style of being so frantic with so many players doing so many things that the referee very quickly has no idea what's going on. You could write the entire thesis on most of the first half rucks and still have no idea really what you were watching. Tough job for a referee to sort that out. ARG have brought a new style there and it will take some time for the referees to work it out.

Thirdly the game remind me a lot of the NZ v ARG RWC game. ARG make a mess of the whole game and after every play there are 4 argentinians lying around stopping the game. It's a cynical slowing tactic to stop the opposition momentum and needs to be treated harshly.

The 3N was aside from everything else a spectacle of positive and innovative rugby and despite the best intention to add ARG they can't be allowed to turn it into a shambles of negativity and cynicism however romantic the notion of the underdog is. They must evolve and learn to play top class high quality game and fit into the culture.

I thought SA looked shell-shocked and confused most of the time as did Walsh.

All that aside it doesn't take a PhD in rugby tactics to work out that SA are lacking an extra dimension to their game plan at the moment. A shame with so many top class players around in the Currie cup in evidence. The tactic of under-committing the ruck to leave back rowers available to carry is not working and they need do their basic job and leave the backs to find the spaces in the defense rather than punching the holes by force - or learn to off-load in the tackle.

fact is all teams are lacking in something bar NZ.. we either face this or make demands wether we win lose or draw to anyone!!

Losses or draws or even close wins highlight the issues. but the issues are allways there..

AWOP, I agree with your ruck analysis, but one would hope that then, with a little bit of wit, the bok players/coach would realise that the way to avoid the ruck mess is to offload in contact and not commit to a rucking game by taking the ball with you into contact. However, then you realise that there are several players in the bok team who have never heard of the word 'offload'.....

Taylorman wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:

FerN wrote:Biltong I agree,

I thought Heineke would bring some new ideas to the table, but he isn't doing it. Maybe it is because he thinks our ball skills isn't up to it as we have relied on sheer strength since always. I saw a school boy the other day and he was 110kgs in Grade 11. They have that mind set that they can run through everything. It is just at the highest level they can't, because they will be matched. I think the whole springbok thinking need to change from school level.

PDivvy did try to make us more attacking in 2008 if I remember correctly and that didn't work out all to well for us, except that we got our first win in the house of pain.

There were some passages of play where we looked very dangerous yesterday, but that was by far in the minority.

I have no idea how to fix this, it just seems much deeper than just the approach. It is currently the South African rugby system that needs to change.

Although he only needs to watch the Sharks or the Cheetah's to see that we do have ball skills...Meyer just needs to choose the players who possess them.

Well. Then he needs to coach them and clearly meyer has neither the interest nor pedigree to coach such players...or he would have picked them by now. He doesn't see ball skills as an important part of his gameplan.

Indeed. Alas!

Mr Fishpaste wrote:AWOP, I agree with your ruck analysis, but one would hope that then, with a little bit of wit, the bok players/coach would realise that the way to avoid the ruck mess is to offload in contact and not commit to a rucking game by taking the ball with you into contact. However, then you realise that there are several players in the bok team who have never heard of the word 'offload'.....

Well it's not "real rugby" is it?

NZ is lacking a
good young back up hooker
good back up tight head
a really tough and tight number 6
a good back up 13

Morne Steyn with ball in hand looked the most likely to spark the Boks which is more an indictment on HM than a compliment to Steyn. Desperately need Pienaar to start (for place-kicking as well as distribution) & Hougaard to come on as one of the "impact" players HM was talking about, he has been highly effective in that role before. Embarrassing to see when it does get moved along the line how it's repeatedly clogged up by forwards or JDV. If they insist on the slow drift across the field Aplon is need to make runs at angles to take the opposing defence out of their comfort zone - I seriously think that I would be as effective as Kirchner (I haven't played any form of rugby for about 15 years & I was rubbish when I did).

nganboy wrote:NZ is lacking a
good young back up hooker
good back up tight head
a really tough and tight number 6
a good back up 13

Hika Elliot?

I thought Ben Smith played extraordinarily well when he came on and had something on Conrad, or maybe Aaron Mauger about him in his link play and clever attacking positional awareness. Maybe the coaches had a point when they play him at center with Nonu in the Pukekoe warm up!

Anyone have any idea what Meyer was talking about in his walkie talkie all night? It didn't seem to precede substitutions and the game plan sure as heck didn't change for 80 minutes. Was he putting through a difficult room service order?

AWOP, have made another thread about referees using empathy when people are going off their feet at ruck time, then you moan on this thread when you say Argentina are doing it, seriously what are you motives on this board ?

That one day, LD, you find the plot again.

anotherworldofpain wrote:That one day, LD, you find the plot again.

No need to be insulting AWOP. LD raised a valid question.

Galted wrote:Morne Steyn with ball in hand looked the most likely to spark the Boks which is more an indictment on HM than a compliment to Steyn. Desperately need Pienaar to start (for place-kicking as well as distribution) & Hougaard to come on as one of the "impact" players HM was talking about, he has been highly effective in that role before. Embarrassing to see when it does get moved along the line how it's repeatedly clogged up by forwards or JDV. If they insist on the slow drift across the field Aplon is need to make runs at angles to take the opposing defence out of their comfort zone - I seriously think that I would be as effective as Kirchner (I haven't played any form of rugby for about 15 years & I was rubbish when I did).

Tend to agreewith this. Hougard was a very good impact player and I agree Steyn does try to move the ball wide. He has a good quick wide pass as well.

The clogging of the field is purely bad management of the space available. Look at the arrangement of the oz and nz backliness. They're designed to keep the opposition guessing. Dummy runners, multiple layers, angled vs straight lines. Its all there. You just can't afford to have wayward forwards in amongst it but if they are they're generally part of the plan.

SA rely so much on oppositions relenting yet don't earn the right for that to happen. That combined with the lack of any genuine creativity means fans sit there hoping for a breakthrough. Tries like steyns- usually through habana- have sealed so many wins for SA in the past.

For me what happens when the forwards do come right? They will still have inept backlines. Steyn is now there for the last 4 tests and a steyn steyn jdv lineup will really have trouble against them. They're probably fortunate they don't have to face this years sbw model.

Completely off topic i know but the Springbok Blazers MUST be the most hideous clothing garment ever to "grace" a sporting occassion..................they make Russias Olympic tracksuits look nice.......................

Bil it was a great game for the impartial underdog supporter.

Apologies mate but I was very proud for Argentina to do so well.

Not a great bok performance.

Time to turn it around though so don't be too downhearted. Does put the June tours into some perspective though.

In what regard does it put the June tours into some perspective maesteg?

Biltong, whilst I agree with you that South Africa have some real issues to address with the sleection and tactics I wouldn't get to carried away off of the back if this performance/result.

Argentina was always going to be a tough place to go, as they will be targetting their home games to make an impression in this competition. I can see Australia going there and losing, as this Argentina team have a tough, physical pack and if they play with the intensity that they did against you, I can see Australia struggling to contain them.

Maes, I honestly doubt there is better to come.

Nine years since JW took the Boks and not one new move, no evolution or an inkling of ingenuity.

I have lost all faith in Meyer. We might as well not bother having any expectations, it was pathetic and unacceptable.

How many times do we have to play a game where we get "bested" at the breakdown and yet we are still too bloody stupid to realise two men at the breakdown is not going to stop the stampede of superior numbers.

It s basic bloody physics. When six hundred kilos of force hits two hundred kilos of stationary object, there is no way you will stand your ground.

How many times have I said, if a player is on the floor and impeding your access to your ball, get the bloody player out with force, don't lean on the bloke, it achieves nothing.

I can't type fast enough to express my frustration and anger at the stupidity and lack of adaptive thinking by Meyer and his cohorts.

It is &&$);/ pathetic.

It is time to accept the fact we will never challenge the All Blacks becuase we are too damn stupid.

biltong mate, methinks you're being a bit harsh on your players (bit like me on another thread). The boks side's still a very competent outfit, the new back rows pretty awesome in strength, and the backline on attack is starting to look good. One poor match does not mean a bad side overnight.

Good to get the bad game out the way early on, and you didn't lose, so that's the main thing!!

OzT wrote:biltong mate, methinks you're being a bit harsh on your players (bit like me on another thread). The boks side's still a very competent outfit, the new back rows pretty awesome in strength, and the backline on attack is starting to look good. One poor match does not mean a bad side overnight.

I think Biltongs dead right to be concerned. Is 'competent' acceptable for SA supporters?
Is it one match, or the last 15?

Honestly, when was the last time SA had a truly emphatic victory over anyone in the top 8? None of the English tests- in parts yes, but the scoreline didnt suggest it and they finished the series with a draw. A team ranked higher in a home test series should ALWAYS work out the opposition over three tests and leave the series better than it began. It ended worse. That suggests decline no matter how you read it.

I really hate sounding like a broken record but for me its criminal for the powers that be continue to let this happen year after year.

SA are in for a VERY hard time next 4 tests- particularly away- Why? Because what is there to fear? A forward pack that can't do the basics, a non existent attack and even a goalkicker his for his standards costing teams matches. And we all know now that SA cant win from behind so once he pressures on they'll get more and more desperate.

The more the SA bigheads read this sort of stuff the better.

Anyway, promise no more negative SA stuff from me this week. It falls on deaf ears anyway...

I think Argentina need a bit more respect here from some. This was hardly a shock result. They are a decent side and especially when playing at home. SA had no 'right' to win and knew they needed to be on their game. They weren't, but partly that was Argentina stopping them.

It's not just about one side.

We should be happy (well maybe not if you're from SA) that Argentina are already upsetting the applecart a bit.

LordDowlais wrote:AWOP, have made another thread about referees using empathy when people are going off their feet at ruck time, then you moan on this thread when you say Argentina are doing it, seriously what are you motives on this board ?

Ok LD. You clearly don't understand the point. There is a giant difference between the dynamic offensive ruck and the tactics Argentina were using in defense yesterday. If you can't see the difference between those two things then you need to watch some slow motion replays or realise that you are only compare these two completely different things because you want to make a straw man argument to burn on my other thread. Argentina == wilful cynical ball killing when they have no chance of a turn over. NZ == overwhelming counter ruck where the ball comes on the NZ side quickly but one player on the way through trips on an opponent and gets pinged. It is the very fact that these things are so very different that it annoys me so much when some referees penalise them both as though they are the SAME thing. Get my point?

Chill AWOP don't want to get banned eh?

sugarNspikes wrote:I think Argentina need a bit more respect here from some. This was hardly a shock result. They are a decent side and especially when playing at home. SA had no 'right' to win and knew they needed to be on their game. They weren't, but partly that was Argentina stopping them.

It's not just about one side.

In fact you're wrong, this article is about one side and it is the springboks. I didn't write a match report, I aired my views on what's wrong with the Boks.

By the way my last two paragraphs I complimented the Argentinians.

So what's the consensus in SA about the result, the direction and Meyer. What is the root of the problem according to the general population biltong?

And has meyer and his people come out with the areas they are going to correct this?

Two draws against lower ranked sides already in his tenure is not a good start for him so he must be at the point where he's looking to widen his scope for improvement?

Nick Mallet apparently blew his lid in studio after the match. I didn't see it as I was far to angry to listen to anyone commenting on the match.

Here is a report of someone who listened to Mallet.

Personally I’ve not seen him this agitated ever before, and he really laid into a totally inept Bok team. His main arguments were:

1. A lack of direction and support in attack.
Each and every player looks at his nearest opponent and crashes into him with only one object in mind: To go down with the ball and create a ruck. (Nothing new there, is there?)
Instead their first aim should be to twist, turn and leg drive whilst trying to get the ball to a supporting player off-load style. They should only go to ground if there is no support available, or if it is a called for set move.
This is exactly how the Pumas got their try, with the opposing Boks not knowing what was happening and wrong footed.
There was an excellent example of the ineptitude by the Boks when Alberts got over the advantage line with support on his shoulders, but opted to go to ground. An almost certain try was lost.

2. The lack of direction by Morne Steyn.
He should be the playmaker making the calls, but there is too often a loose or tight forward or someone like Frans Steyn standing at first receiver.
Steyn should take control, which he is clearly not doing. Then again – and here he had Naas’ support – can he control the game when 50% of the time he is not the first receiver?

3. Senseless kicking deep down the midfield
– out of reach of any chasers and into the hands of the Pumas back three to start a movement. Even the better kicks were not chased properly. (Again, nothing new there.)

4. Putting the wings up as target practice for the defenders.
There was a classic instance when the ball was moving to the right in an attack, with the Boks outnumbering the Pumas 4-2. Instead of passing down the line, a long pass was thrown to the wing – leaving his opponent enough time to line him up and tackle him ball and all.
There was also criticism at Bekker’s run down the touchline, not looking for support and just bashing ahead. (Not quite sure about the particulars in this case.)

5. Weak defence:
Weak tackles and a lack of a proper defensive pattern, where each player is entrusted with a certain role. (This aspect of the Boks’ play has gone to the dogs.)

6. Lack of commitment at the rucks
– there was one instance where there were seven Boks and only one Puma in a ruck. A total absence of mauling from the lineout.

This is what I can recall – please add what you heard, plus your own observations.

Most of the SA supporters are simply fedup, I even saw a staunch Bulls supporter that runs his own blog agree that the criticism must now flow.

People seem to have lost any faith they were clinging to that Meyer is going to be the savour and admit they were upset when he didn't get the job in 2007, but now realise Nick Mallet may have been a better option.

So all my questioning of Myer and his cohorts seems to now be seen as ligit over the past few months.

If I was Meyer I would rock the boat now.

My squad from available players.

1. Beast/Kitshoff
2. Strauss/Liebenberg
3. Jannie du Plessis/ Pat Cilliers
4. Etzebeth/Flip v d Merwe
5. Kruger/Bresler
6. Coetzee/Brussow
7. Alberts/Deysel
8. Vermeulen/Bekker

9. Pienaar/Pretorius
10. Goosen/M Steyn
11. Habana/Hougaard
12. P Lambie/Jan Serfontein
13. Paul Jordaan/JJ Engelbrecht
14. Ludick/Willie Le Roux
15. Frans Steyn.

Move Bekker to 8, he is athletic and still a decent line out option, he has pace and skills but should not run the lineout.

Move Frans Steyn to 15 and Lambie to 12, Lambie has more pace to go through the gap and Frans will be more solid at 15 in defence.

Drop Jean de Villiers completely, let him retire now, he cannot bring us anything this year, his leadership is stoic and predictable and apart from being defensively strong he brings nothing else to the team, his experience is overrated and he limits our development.

Drop Zane Kirchner, he has had enough time to prove he isn't a creative energy.

Drop Mvovo, he is 28 and too late to develop further.

Drop Potgieter, he attacks the line like a tornado, only to go out in a whiff of puff.

Returning players.

Bismarck, Coenie Oosthuizen, Burger, Smith (if he ever comes back), Spies and JP Pietersen will all strengthen the squad when they return.

Then Taute needs to be tested when he returns from injury.

why wait to make changes, see what these youngster can do, they have shown talent so lets give them a go, it can hardly get worse from here.

We must clean ship.

With the suggested squad I put here, lets find out who is the best players, most of them in the back line can play more than one position, so lets see.

I actually think Meyer should revert to a kicking game with Pienaar at 9 and Hougaard on the right wing with Habana going to the left wing. The current smash and run game plan isn't working and certainly won't work against NZ or Aus if they can get their act together. At least with the old kicking game you guys woud gain territory, squeeze out points and pounce on the oppositions mistakes...

I agree with GoWales not enough intelligence at halfback running the game.

We currently don't have the forwards to play that way.

Very negative analysis of the argentina tactics. IMO SA play a cynical slow adn spoiling game as well. McCawa dn Pock are experts inplaying just over the line to cheating.. Smacks of sour grapes to me.

Sorry Biltong, but I think you put way to much faith in Lambie. I do agree that Frans should play 15, but Lambie at 12 isn't good in my opinion. Actually Lambie has not been "good" this whole year. Lambie isn't our saviour at 10,12 or 15. At 10 I don't know what to do, at 12 we have other choices, including JDV and Frans should be at 15.