Not much more to say, is there?

First topic message reminder :

So it has come to pass, Heyneke Meyer has convinced me there is little hope for evolution in Springbok rugby, at least not with the lot that started the Rugby Championship campaign in the first two tests against Argentina.

I'll concede two facts, one is that Argentina is a tough place to tour and two, there are a lot of injuries to crucial players.

Rucks

It is common sense that two players will not physically overpower six players. It is the nature of physics, it is pure logic. It is also pure logic that when the half back is wasting time behind the ruck, those two stationary players in the ruck will not withstand the assualt of superior numbers hitting the breakdown with force.

This logic extend to players isolating themselves by running away from their support, or players not running support lines to arrive at the tackle area early enough.

But the most logical conclusion that somehow went amiss on Saturday evening in Mendoza was the fact that no Springbok player realised the best way to avoid being overturned or dominated at the breakdown was to avoid it.

Lineouts.

As recent as the Quarter Final in the World Cup, the Springboks conceded a penalty in the last minutes against Australia for taking down a player in the line out, and subsequently lost the match. However they haven't learnt. Last might was a repeat of the same foul, this time committed by Flip v d Merwe, courtesy of his first action when he came onto the field.

Andries Bekker organised the SA line out with the efficiency of a misfiring V8 and the general control was simply woeful.

Attack.

You can't say the South Africans didn't try to run with ball in hand, but you can argue it is devoid of any ideas of how to break defences. The problem is they do only one move, 9 to 10, 10 to 12, 12 to 13, who runs diagonally across the pitch, who then seldom has the urge to pass to a support player or simply runs them into the sideline where there is no space. Of course there are also the times when the insistence of Meyer requires a backrow forward to run at the defensive line to setup a ruck, which inevitably turns into another turn over or slow attacking ball for SA.

The Argentine defensive line was borderline offside the whole evening and their rush defence created an ideal opportunity for the little grubber or chip kick behind and yet there was evidence of any intelligent play by any backline player to recognise it.

There was also no evidence of any runner off the shoulder or offloads.

In one move Frans Steyn saw an overlap out wide and fired a pass to Andries Bekker who had but to draw a defender and pass to the inside and it was game on, but alas the neanderthal in him decided otherwise the move ended with a lineout to Argentina.

The kicking on the night was either too long, or simply poorly chased.

The only players that covered themselves in any glory were Etzebeth and Pienaar.

Etzebeth seemed like the lone wolf in a losing cause at the breakdowns and Ruan Pienaar ensured some accurate and quick service at the base of the rucks.

Meyer.

I get that there are injured players that won't be available for some time, Burger, Pietersen, Smith, Bismarck, Oosthuizen and Spies, but it is time that Meyer smell the roses.

For all intent and purposes the Rugby Championship is gone, for the Springboks to have made a charge at the trophy they had to have ten log points after their first two matches, the only realistic way for them to win now is to beat the Wallabies and All Blacks with four try bonus points and frankly after last night we have seen little evidence that it could happen.

Thus reality needs to dawn on Meyer. Hougaard has an inaccurate and inconsistent pass and his box kicking is under par for an international player, thus either find space for him at the wing, or drop him.

Morne Steyn simply won't evolve the Bok gameplan, I really don't care what anyone else believes, Steyn isn't the man.

Frans Steyn needs to lose weight and gain some pace, even with his charge down try you could see the man has lost pace.

Jean de Villiers is one dimensional and creates nothing, zero, zip, nada. Well you get the picture.

Habana is useless on the right wing, Mvovo with his little dance when he runs at the opposition only succeeds in him losing pace, either go full tilt at the defence or pass the ball.

Zane Kirchner, I can only ask for the umpteenth time, why the bloody hell is he there? He must be the most predictable full back there is, he either kicks or runs untill he is tackled.

Meyer must clean ship now.

Bring in the young guns, let them gain experience, it isn't as if the current backline will win you many matches. Again last night in the last ten minutes we kick possession away. WHAT THE HELL?

Bekker must be replaced by Juandre Kruger, bring in Duane Vermeulen, Alberts is wasted if he isn't at 7, Potgieter is useless.

Argentina.

They played the Bok gameplan better, they hit the rucks with more numbers and more force, they do play negatively however and you need to avoid rucks and mauls against them, referees will penalise them more and more, watch, they are on the ground at rucks, they roll around mauls and play the ball on the ground, they won't get away with this many more matches.

They didn't deserve a draw last night, they deserved the win. But then at this stage the Boks need all the luck they can muster,it isn't as if we are going to scare any, are we?

Does anyone have Mallet and Botha's direct words somewhere. I only saw the rebroadcast of the game so didn't see all of the analysis and things.

TJ wrote:Very negative analysis of the argentina tactics. IMO SA play a cynical slow adn spoiling game as well. McCawa dn Pock are experts inplaying just over the line to cheating.. Smacks of sour grapes to me.

TJ, in my opinion you aren't really watching springbok rugby then.

You can't slow down ball and play negatively if you don't commit the numbers to the ruck to do it, SA over the past five tests stand off and commit very few to the ruck in preference to getting defences organised, hence your judgement of negative play couldn't be further off the mark.

As for sour grapes, it ain't sour grapes mate, is is frustration born out of stupid rugby for the past 5 years.

FerN wrote:Sorry Biltong, but I think you put way to much faith in Lambie. I do agree that Frans should play 15, but Lambie at 12 isn't good in my opinion. Actually Lambie has not been "good" this whole year. Lambie isn't our saviour at 10,12 or 15. At 10 I don't know what to do, at 12 we have other choices, including JDV and Frans should be at 15.

Fern, you have to be fair to Lambie, he was injured for much of the Super XV, and has not had a continuous run this season.

I believe he needs game time and could be better at 12 due to his speed and ability to eye a gap, Frans Steyn is one of my favourite players and I believe Lambie is too weak in defence currently, where as Frans is very strong defensively. His boot is also more useful at the back than Lambie's

Biltong wrote:

FerN wrote:Sorry Biltong, but I think you put way to much faith in Lambie. I do agree that Frans should play 15, but Lambie at 12 isn't good in my opinion. Actually Lambie has not been "good" this whole year. Lambie isn't our saviour at 10,12 or 15. At 10 I don't know what to do, at 12 we have other choices, including JDV and Frans should be at 15.

Fern, you have to be fair to Lambie, he was injured for much of the Super XV, and has not had a continuous run this season.

I believe he needs game time and could be better at 12 due to his speed and ability to eye a gap, Frans Steyn is one of my favourite players and I believe Lambie is too weak in defence currently, where as Frans is very strong defensively. His boot is also more useful at the back than Lambie's

Sure we should give Lambie a chance, but we must not choose on form that has been. Then we will sit in the same boat as we are currently with Morne. In my opinion Lambie should be on the bench till he puts in a performance that will put day-light between other players. He really hasn't and even when he comes on for Kirchner, we don't look better. I would actually have Taute in there if it was up to me.

Sure he should be on the bench, but then at least put him on the field to get gametime and form, he isn't getting any at the moment.

The section in the OP about the half backs lingering with their own forwards completely outnumbered at the ruck rings so true of Andy Robinson's Scotland as well.

It bothers me hugely when scrum halves do this. Genia did it at the weekend as well in the early stages of the game when Australia were trying to take the game to the All Blacks, as soon as he lingered the AB forwards piled in and overturned the ball. If I were one of the overwhelmed Aussie forwards at that ruck I'd have peeled myself off the floor and landed a haymaker to Genia's face.

Why do teams do this? Better to release the ball to the backs, even if not perfectly organised, and be turned over in a good position. Mike Blair made an art-form of it for Scotland a couple of seasons back, when going through his slow and ponderous phase. Totally nonsensical play. All the best teams play with pace, and if you're lucky enough to secure good ruck ball only committing a couple of forwards then good god spin it away.

Biltong wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:I think Argentina need a bit more respect here from some. This was hardly a shock result. They are a decent side and especially when playing at home. SA had no 'right' to win and knew they needed to be on their game. They weren't, but partly that was Argentina stopping them.

It's not just about one side.

In fact you're wrong, this article is about one side and it is the springboks. I didn't write a match report, I aired my views on what's wrong with the Boks.

By the way my last two paragraphs I complimented the Argentinians.

I didn't really mean your comments, biltong. Apols if my comments were on the wrong thread, but it seems a lot of people see this as the death of SA whereas perhaps it is more the rebirth of Argentina.

As you say though, wrong thread for these comments.

No worries sugarNspikes.

Both sides need to quickly move on from the highs and lows of this result. Both have very tough assignments in two weeks. In Perth Deans wounded oz side will be desperate to not only win but win convincingly to put their own loss into perspective.

And without a doubt Argentina have their most difficult match of their campaign in Wellington.

Seems like South African fans have the same frustrations as the Irish ones. A terribly limited and conservative playing style. I know both sides had success in 2009. But it's just unbelievable that both sides are still playing like this years after the rules were changed specifically to reward more attacking rugby. It's so frustrating and the longer Ireland persevere with what isn't working the more painful it is to watch.

But at least we only have a year of Kidney left and can hopefully look forward to a new era soon. But this is South Africa's new coach and he doesn't seem to have brought any new idea's.