Dawson v Ward: Who Got Dis?

This fight intrigues me very very much. I will ignore the concerns over Dawson dropping weight and take it as granted he will be fit enough to perform.

Great fight between two top talents. So how does it go?

Things I have to consider are thus.

1. Ward is at home, and whether we like it or not, it matters. Home support always gives a fighter an edge.
2. Dawson dropping down and not moving up in weight is an issue (I lied when I said I wouldn't mention it). Moving up to face an non-puncher like Ward would be ok, but coming down may be an issue if he is drained. That said Ward's punch won't be a factor.
3. In-fighting. Ward is a master at it and as dirty as a Hookers treasure chest on a Sunday morn. He will likely do allt he things BHop was too old to do to Dawon on the inside.
4. Height, reach and power advantages are all Dawson's. These are no small advantages when used properly, but will Dawson use the properly.
5. Ward will be better mentally prepared than Dawson; he just will.

All in all I see this as an extremely competative fight, and one which I would favour Dawson to win in razor close fashion, if he knew how to maximise his talents. As it is, Ward's ring savvy and dogged determination will probably give him a majority decision win or razor close UD. Wouldn't be surpised to see cuts on Dawsons face from butts, and wouldn't at all be surprised if I was back on here complaining the day after about it.

All in all though, great fight.

Thoughts?

Ward every day and twice on sundays. Simply better in every facet of the sport.

Ward wide-ish UD, for me.

I think Dawson is very much up with Ward in terms of the technical aspects of the game. But, Ward is very driven and mentally strong, whereas Dawson is lazy. That's the difference for me.

I like your analysis Boxtthis. People should recognise Dawson's talents, which are up there with anyone in the world p4p, but Ward is no pushover and in a fight that is 55-45 on talent in dawson's favour IMO, it is probably 75-25 in favour of Ward for intangibles. Ward by close decision. Can't see him dominating Dawson, but should get it done.

Boxtthis wrote:I think Dawson is very much up with Ward in terms of the technical aspects of the game. But, Ward is very driven and mentally strong, whereas Dawson is lazy. That's the difference for me.

Bingo.

Ward to win comfortably but unspectacularly. I think Ward is more talented, smarter and more motivated.

Dawson's a fine technician, but I just think that Ward has that little bit more in his arsenal in most areas - the lad has as good a skill set as you could wish to see. I think Froch's demolition of Buté has helped to put in to perspective just how special a fighter Ward is.

I can see Dawson more or less just being out sped as Ward mounts those usual quicksilver attacks. Too busy, strong at 168 lb and too cute in the dark arts for Dawson to find his range, I think.

Ward by something like 116-112 on all cards.

Dawson TKO - more on a whim than any sound reasoning.

manos de piedra wrote:Ward to win comfortably but unspectacularly

That's how I see it. A close-ish but clear decision for Ward. And not a great fight. But, I'll tell you what, Ward will be on some run if he wins this: Kessler, Green, Bika, Abraham, Froch, Dawson

I think that the previous opposition here really favours Dawson heavily. You cannot complain at the level of Wards opponents but style wise he has not fought anyone like Dawson. Whereas Dawson has been in Hopkins who is not to different from Ward just 20 years older. I think if Dawson has learned from the Hopkins fight and has also found a way to deal with speed better than he did against Pascal then it's his fight.

The best wins on Wards record are against fighters he was always going to match up well against style wise, not his fault obviously but I would like to see him in with someone who could match him for speed and technical ability. Whats Dirrell up to these days?

Also a convincing win over Dawson really does add an awful lot to Wards record and for me would put him in that elite P4P top 3 area.

Id probably have to disagree. I think the form book favours Ward more. Hes won his all Super 6 fights in a very comprehensive manner for me. I havent been quite as impressed with Dawson.

Hopkins was a good win on paper for him but I cant look past Hopkins age and deterioration by that point, and I didnt think Dawson bossed it as one might have hoped. I dont see Ward losing against Dawson on the basis of that performance. I hought the frequency Hopkins was able to get on the inside and the failue of Dawson to dictate the tempo against a half tank Hopkins were definate worries coming against Ward. I also think Wards adaptability and versatility gives him an edge. Should be interesting though, if probably not thrilling.

manos de piedra wrote: I hought the frequency Hopkins was able to get on the inside and the failue of Dawson to dictate the tempo against a half tank Hopkins were definate worries coming against Ward.

Agree with this. Dawson seems to have all the tools but he lets people fight their fight rather than forcing the issue on his terms. If he takes those wee mental breathers and allows Ward to work on the inside then Ward will win handily. You can be sure that Ward will be attempting to dictate the way the fight goes - that's probably what he's best at....and what Dawson is worst at. I also think back to the Pascal fight. That's one that Dawson should have won, but he let Pascal dictate the action. Could you imagine Pascal beating Ward ever? I couldn't. Who knows - maybe Dawson will get himself together for this one. If he does then he could easily win. I just don't see much evidence on past form that he will, and I expect Ward to boss the generalship/pace aspect of the fight.

Ward has can fight in more styles than Dawson and I think he is going to beat Dawson. Dawsons work rate is also pathetic.

Very interested in the fight though should be a good one.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Dawsons work rate is also pathetic.

Absolutely. It's not that he's not fit. He just seems to have a lack of urgency about him. It's sometimes like he doesn't care too much about winning. Ward is exactly the opposite.

Ward UD all day for me.

Ward took on what we now know as the 2nd best Super-Middle in Froch and made him look silly.

Dawson took on a guy that Froch had a good old fashioned ding-dong with and lost, mainly because, as Boxthis has already stated, Dawson is lazy and lets himself get outworked because he takes rounds off.

I don't think either has the power to dent the other's chin so this for me has a Ward UD written all over it.

Ward UD for me, I don't rate Dawson and think Ward is too slick for him.

Who thinks Pascal might actually be quite a tricky matchup for Ward?

The way he moves around and then rips off quick bursts of action would be hard for Ward to get dirty on. He might well be Ward's inferior bogey man.

ward should win this comfortably. dawson never looked like hurting hopkins and was made to look silly at times when punching fresh air. hopkins was too slow and lacked the stamina to go on the offensive though, but ward will be at it for the full 12 rounds. i think ward will frustrate him all night and im not sure dawson will land anything decent until he gets dirty and maybe even a DQ

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Who thinks Pascal might actually be quite a tricky matchup for Ward?

The way he moves around and then rips off quick bursts of action would be hard for Ward to get dirty on. He might well be Ward's inferior bogey man.

I can see the logic in the argument, but Ward has excellent timing and I think he would catch Pascal regardless. People think of Ward as this savvy inside operator, but his timing from mid-range and from the outside is also outstanding. Froch couldn't pressure him from any range, and I don't think Pascal could either. Plus, Pascal has stamina issues, and I can see Ward wearing him down. For me Ward beats him every time with a clear UD (with Pascal taking a few rounds).

Ward is a complete fighter and would be a nightmare for every boxer stylistically. He can fight at any range, counter going forward, can half your punch output, dictate the tempo, rough you up, the list is endless

Dawson is talented but when ward gets too him and makes it awkward you can see him being bullie dad he lacks a bit of desire. Ward is very smart and analyses fighters as he fights them and finds ways to win, exploiting chinks in their armour.

Dawson has come for a pay day. I have no idea when the last time he fought at 168 is, but seeing him at 175 he already looked incredibly lean.

So, dropping another 7lbs will be a major issue. I expect him to look gaunt and dry at the weigh in. He will then try to furiously rehydrate - see De la Hoya- but this will all be in vain.

All things being even...i.e. if they fought at 172 perhaps, i'd give him a good chance as he is a truly gifted fighter. But things arent even and he's fighting the best 168 pounder on the planet.

Wide UD for Ward

Bartley Gorman wrote:Dawson has come for a pay day. I have no idea when the last time he fought at 168 is, but seeing him at 175 he already looked incredibly lean.

So, dropping another 7lbs will be a major issue. I expect him to look gaunt and dry at the weigh in. He will then try to furiously rehydrate - see De la Hoya- but this will all be in vain.

All things being even...i.e. if they fought at 172 perhaps, i'd give him a good chance as he is a truly gifted fighter. But things arent even and he's fighting the best 168 pounder on the planet.

Wide UD for Ward

Give Dawson credit. He fights for the right reasons, which is to say he wants big names. He is not some over the hill fighter coming for a pay day.

I give him all the credit in the world, as i said, he's a truly gifted fighter.

But this fight is about money, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to fight at 7lbs below his fight weight!

I chekced and he hasnt fought at 168 since 2006 and he's now 30 years of age, this isnt the time to be going down in weight!

He could have took title fights at 175, but instead has gone down 7lbs for the money. When he loses, he'll give the excuse "ah, it wasnt my weight....blah blah blah" and then move back up to 175 with a pocket full of cash.

Bartley Gorman wrote:I give him all the credit in the world, as i said, he's a truly gifted fighter.

But this fight is about money, otherwise he wouldn't have agreed to fight at 7lbs below his fight weight!

I chekced and he hasnt fought at 168 since 2006 and he's now 30 years of age, this isnt the time to be going down in weight!

He could have took title fights at 175, but instead has gone down 7lbs for the money. When he loses, he'll give the excuse "ah, it wasnt my weight....blah blah blah" and then move back up to 175 with a pocket full of cash.

Nope. This is not about money. You are NOT giving him credit as you are suggesting he is going int here against a guy who up to now couldn't draw flies, for a massive pay cheque. Dawson is a champ in his prime, he thinks he can win and you are wrong.

Yes he is an idiot for dropping to 168, and yes he will use that as an excuse should he lose, but it is not a "money" fight.

Bartley Gorman wrote:He could have took title fights at 175, but instead has gone down 7lbs for the money..

Who would he have fought at 175? He's just beaten Hopkins in a less-than-stellar fight, and, at the time of negotiations for a new fight, Pascal (his only defeat) was lined up to fight Tavoris Cloud (another title holder). Who's left for him? Kessler is a big name that's recently went to 175, but who doesn't seem to be negotiating right now. Beibut Shumenov and Cleverly are the other two titleholders - not huge names themselves - and I'd be amazed if either of their management teams would put them in with Dawson. There's no one for him to fight at 175, so he took the hardest possible fight at 168 against Ward (who isn't a huge draw himself). Don't think anyone can be hard on the opponent choice - from both perspectives.

Do we all agree that this is the biggest money fight available to Dawson?

Do we all agree that his chances of winning are massively diminshed due to the weight the fight is taking place at?

Do we all agree that Dawson is aware of the two prementioned facts?

Therefore, he has taken a fight, at a lower weight, that guarantee's him the most revenue and is a fight that he has a dimished chance of winning due to the weight.

As a result of the above, it appears to me that he has taken the fight for the money.

He should have stayed at 175 and cleaned out the division if Ward refused to come up to at least half way!

Its hardly a payday fight. Ward isnt box office material and the split for the fight is probably close to 50/50. I imagine Dawson could have made far less risky money by getting 75/25 against a mandatory or a hand picked opponent. Hes fought most worthwhile names at 175lb in any event.

Bartley Gorman wrote:Do we all agree that this is the biggest money fight available to Dawson?

Do we all agree that his chances of winning are massively diminshed due to the weight the fight is taking place at?

Do we all agree that Dawson is aware of the two prementioned facts?

Therefore, he has taken a fight, at a lower weight, that guarantee's him the most revenue and is a fight that he has a dimished chance of winning due to the weight.

As a result of the above, it appears to me that he has taken the fight for the money.

He should have stayed at 175 and cleaned out the division if Ward refused to come up to at least half way!

Dawson would have made more money in a Pascal rematch.

He doesn't think he is going to lose

This is not for the money. NO ONE fights Ward for the money. The difference to an easy defence against someone else is minimal

Bartley Gorman wrote:it appears to me that he has taken the fight for the money.

He should have stayed at 175 and cleaned out the division if Ward refused to come up to at least half way!

Imagine that: a prizefighter taking a fight for money??? Everyone takes fights for money. In this case he took a really hard fight - against a guy that doesn't even make him that much money. Ward is not a huge draw by any means. And, I ask again, who would he have fought at 175? Most 175 opponents are either tied up or would be let anywhere near Dawson by their managers. So, his options were a) Wait around for someone like Pascal (who would have been a bigger payday but ended up getting injured and was, for that matter, already signed up to fight Cloud), b) Fight someone crap (which we'd all be slating him for). But, instead, he forces the issue and takes on the best at 168. I can't see anything that can be attacked in that decision. Seems to me like some silly points are getting made here.

The weight drain may be an issue. It remains to be seen. But, if Dawson was just going for the money knowing that he'd probably lose due to weight draining then I think there could be better ways of doing it rather than fighting the ultra-talented but no-particularly-high-revenue-producing Ward. Seems like a bit of a challenging "high-risk, low-reward" fight to me.

Bartley Gorman wrote:Do we all agree that this is the biggest money fight available to Dawson?

Do we all agree that his chances of winning are massively diminshed due to the weight the fight is taking place at?

Do we all agree that Dawson is aware of the two prementioned facts?

Therefore, he has taken a fight, at a lower weight, that guarantee's him the most revenue and is a fight that he has a dimished chance of winning due to the weight.

As a result of the above, it appears to me that he has taken the fight for the money.

He should have stayed at 175 and cleaned out the division if Ward refused to come up to at least half way!

do we all agree this is patronising nonesense???

some of you may know im a huge hopkins fan, and i didnt expect to be defending dawson anytime soon, but clearly this is no payday.
for starters dawson has more respect than at anytime in his career, he can finally claim to be undisputed number 1 in his division, and if he bides his time can get some decent earners against pascal and kessler. why risk his reputation in a fight he expects to lose?
dawson is arrogant, he really believes he is the best boxer out there right now and hes desparate to prove it. hes gone for the toughest fight around his weight category, and is even willing to drain himself, just to say i told you so. he thinks beating ward fast tracks him to where hes supposed to be, and thats right up there in the pound for pound. hes after respect not money, and hopefully he earns little of either when ward shows him what a prime bhop would have done to him.

I stopped reading after you said he can finally claim to be the number 1 in his division.

Guess we have to agree to disagree on this one fellas.

Hes rated number 1 in the division with a record at the weight to justify the claim. Are you talking about the same fighter here?

Clearly we aren't.

I trust you are talking about somebody thats the unified champion at the weight? Somebody who avenged his only defeat..to somebody thats still in that weight class?

Is that who you are talking about? No? Ok then.

So only a unified champion can claim to be number 1 at the weight? Really?

His record of beating Adamek, Tarver, Johnson and Hopkins which included beating the man who was widely regarded as number 1 in the division and holding the WBC and Ring titles is clearly a strong claim to be number 1 in the division.

Does putting 'Really' at the end of a sentence make you feel like a winner? Really? How old are you? Haha!

Tell me where i said being a unified champion is the only justification for being regarded as number 1? Dont worry, i'll wait.

Please also tell me how old Tarver, Johnson and Hopkins were in their fights with Dawson? hahah, are you for real? Really?

Virtually all credible boxing publications have Dawson ranked number 1 one at light heavyweight.

It doesnt really matter how old Tarver, Johnson and Hopkins were because they were all ranked as top guys in the divison at the time. Hopkins was considered the top guy in the division.

I dont really understand your method of determining who the best fighter in a division is. Seemingly his defeat to Pascal means he cant be ranked number 1, regardless of what happened to both fighters before and after.

Of course it matters how old they are and i dont care what 'boxing publications' dictate. Use your own mind to determine what you think, dont let others tell you!

Boxing corruption is rife.

He is a very talented boxer, i dont disagree with this, but to say that he is the number 1 without avenging his defeat or without unifying the titles, or without at least having a body of victories over fighters in their prime is ridiculous.

Id say that their is no clear number 1 in that division and for that reason, he should have stayed and beat the other champions to justify his claim as the best.

He should fight average guys like Shumenov and Cleverly (who have no interest in fighting him) instead of fighting a top class fighter like Ward? Cant please everyone I guess when a fight beteen two guys considered by most to be the best at their weight and top pound for pound fighters is disapproved.

And no, I dont agree with your age point either. He has fought basically all the top guys in his division and lost once, to Pascal who in turn lost to Hopkins who Dawson then beat. Thats how the title changed hands and why at this specific point in time Dawson is considered the top gy in the division.

Your point about corruption doesnt mean anthing in the context of this argument either unless you are implying Dawson only got his title through corruption.

Even if you dont believe he is the number 1 in the division, he has a claim stronger than basically anyone else there owing to his record at the weight.

Yeah, you're right, why fight the other champions. In fact, why fight anyone at all lol, we'll just decide that he's better than them all, no point in actually proving it. Forget that concept, its out dated. Forget the time when people actually fought each other. Lets just enjoy the current game when people allow their fans to argue about whos the best on boxing forums.

Also, dont move the goalposts of the argument, i have no objection to the fight between Ward and Dawson. My point was that he was taking it for the money. I never said they shouldn't fight. I simply said that he's got his excuse ready made for when he gets beaten.

He has fought nearly all the top guys in the division in the last few years. Just because Shumenov or Cleverly hold world titles does not mean they are the best in the division. Sergio Martinez for example is not even a world champion at middleweight. Would Chavez Jr be better off fighting a gy with a title or the guy recognised as the best in the division?

And when you say Dawson is just taking this money as a payday then I take that as an objection to the fight, especially when you say he should be fighting quite blatantly leser fighters instead.

But we wont agree on this so Il leave it.

The Martinez v Chavez comparission is ridiculous. However, as you said, we wont agree so i'm happy to leave the discussion where it is......and then pick it up again after Dawson is defeated in a poor showing due to weight issues.

Cheers

Bartley Gorman wrote:Yeah, you're right, why fight the other champions. In fact, why fight anyone at all lol, we'll just decide that he's better than them all, no point in actually proving it. Forget that concept, its out dated. Forget the time when people actually fought each other. Lets just enjoy the current game when people allow their fans to argue about whos the best on boxing forums.

Also, dont move the goalposts of the argument, i have no objection to the fight between Ward and Dawson. My point was that he was taking it for the money. I never said they shouldn't fight. I simply said that he's got his excuse ready made for when he gets beaten.

The other beltholders want no piece of Dawson. Cleverly is fighting some unknown guy. Shumenov's handlers know he's too inexperienced for Dawson. Cloud (who I believe maybe would fight Dawson......and get destroyed) is fighting Pascal. What else was Dawson to do? He's beaten everyone else at 175. So he goes and challenges the best guy near his weight (who isn't yet a big financial draw)....and you slate him.

Pretty silly logic.

It's all very well saying that he should take all the titles, but the practicalities of boxing don't always work that way. Someone has to be top dog in each division, and Dawson, in the opinion of most people, has the best credentials. Instead of fighting some nobody, he's taken on a really challenging fight here. That's to be commended - not attacked.

Bartley Gorman wrote:The Martinez v Chavez comparission is ridiculous. However, as you said, we wont agree so i'm happy to leave the discussion where it is......and then pick it up again after Dawson is defeated in a poor showing due to weight issues.

Cheers

If he struggles with the weight that proves nothing. You said he's taking on the fight for money in the knowledge that the drain will probably result in him losing. Others have pointed out that Ward is hardly a big money fight. There could be safer ways for Dawson to make money other than facing the top SMW.

And why is the Martinez comparison ridiculous? He hasn't beaten all the other top middleweights, and he doesn't hold a title, but he's recognised as no.1. I think the same holds for Dawson (although perhaps not quite as strongly).

Very little logic to your arguments to be honest.

The Ring magazine use a credible system for awading their Ring titles to fighters and Dawson is one of the few fighters out there (like Martinez) that holds one.

Boxtthis:

The comparrison is ridiculous because Martinez is a MIDDLEWEIGHT and was the MIDDLEWEIGHT champion until he was ludicrously stripped. Chavez is a MIDDLEWEIGHT champion. Everyone wants to know who the best MIDDLEWEIGHT is and after this fight we will all know.

Dawson is a LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT dropping 7lbs to fight a SUPER MIDDLEWEIGHT. When Ward beats him, nobody will care because all he'll have done is beaten weight drained LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT.

That concludes todays seminar.

Yep, nice one. This is your response to all the points I made earlier? All very well to say he should fight all the other LHWs, but he doesn't have many options on that front. It's as if you can't actually read.

Keep on commenting and embarrassing yourself. Not one person here agrees with you.

If i was to address all of the silly points you've made, i'd be here all day haha!

Listen, i care not whether people agree or disagree with me. Its a discussion forum, not a popularity contest. If everyone agreed it would be pretty boring. I come, i make my points. If people agree, great, if they disagree, thats fine too.

Chill out shun, its not worth getting upset over.

Have to go with Ward, think he'll be too quick and will adopt his spoiling tactics whenever need to grind out a competitive but perhaps comfortable victory.