On the verge of greatness

by blackcanelion Wed 29 Aug 2012, 9:50 am

Which players in your team are on the verge of greatness. the NZ Herald has listed Aaron Smith, Isreal Dagg, Kieran Read and Sam Whitelock are on the verge of greatness (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/best-of-sport-analysis/news/article.cfm?c_id=1502180&objectid=10830212). Apart from the pointless comparison with the 87 team it's an interesting point.

To my mind they are probably right. I'd say the likes of Carter and McCaw are the obvious greats. I'd add Tony Woodcock as being there. In addition to the players listed as potential greats I'd add Sonny Bill and Jerome Kaino (if they come back), Nonu and Jane.

So to my mind, the current team has the following:

Great AB's
Woodcock
Carter
Conrad Smith
McCaw

Potential great AB's
Dagg
Jane
Nonu
Sonny Bill Williams
Smith
Read
Kaino
Whitelock

It's probably a bit harsh on Mealamu and Hore, who are both very good All Blacks. Some of the others (e.g. Cruden) just haven't played enough rugby.

Only time will tell. What do you think? How do you see your own team?

by **Biltong** Wed 29 Aug 2012, 9:54 am

I am not sure exactly what you mean by great.

If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time, then it would be.

Bismarck du Plessis, Habana and JP Pietersen.

by blackcanelion Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:06 am

I think you are right on the button. I left it vague in the hope people would define it for themselves. I think legendary is a great word, legendary within a national context is fine (e.g. you might think Ashton might not end up being a legendary winger on the international stage, but in terms of England he could be)

Biltong wrote:I am not sure exactly what you mean by great.

If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time, then it would be.

Bismarck du Plessis, Habana and JP Pietersen.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:22 am

Greats like Cullen or Lomu never won a World Cup, which in some people's eyes diminishes their worth. This World Champion team contains many players that don't stack up in terms of individual greatness but as a team are striding towards greatness.

I'd put Conrad Smith as a great player in your list by the way rather than Woodcock.

by blackcanelion Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:30 am

Smith, I'd agree with. It's pretty subjective. I think Woodcock has been around for a long time and has been the cornerstone of a good forward pack, and scrum. I guess I'm prepared to admit he's possibly not up there with Kevin Skinner.

I have to agree about the team. We are lucky to have lived through a few golden teams. I think John Eales stated this week that we should appreciate it while they are this good, as all good things come to an end eventually.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:40 am

You look at that legendary Auckland pack and only Michael Jones and Sean Fitzpatrick won a World Cup.

Colin Meads and Brian Lochore seem to be remembered as greats because of their involvement in the NZRFU. You see the odd clip of them but how many AB greats do we really know about? Only Alan could probably answer that.

I think though sometimes we place too much emphasis on individual players. Rugby is a team game and individuals can't stand out unless they're surrounded by the right players. Look at how McCaw plays without Read playing.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:52 am

Still pretty well, he had an excellent game at 8 against Ireland!

by goneagain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 10:54 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You look at that legendary Auckland pack and only Michael Jones and Sean Fitzpatrick won a World Cup.

?

Drake, McDowell, Whetton x 2 ?

by disneychilly Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:01 am

I still think the team needs a while before tags can be applied. They've acquitted themselves very well since the World Cup, but they have also only played two countries-one who has never beaten NZ and one who is totally out of sorts. SA in SA is HUGE for me, and the Wallabies will hit back hard in Brisbane. We should beat the Argies but it will still take a hell of an effort, especially in La Plata.

The team over eight years has been phenomenal though. Aside from one sh*t the bed disaster game and getting overhauled by SA for 6 months (a huge effort to take the honours in 08 btw), she's been top of the tree stuff. But how can you break down teams-teams of one season, two, or four. The 2011 RWC was a mere snapshot and a lot of players who didn't play in it played their parts into getting the team up to that level. But it's strange for me-there were some newish faces last year and the team seemed fresh instead of some great players setting the RWC up as their pinnacle. There's still more to come and higher levels to get to, so it's a bit premature. Potential though, and lots of it. I'd love for this team to get the record though. To have McCaw and Carter achieve that on top of everything else would be pretty special.

Never thought Mealamu and Hore were greats though. Their longevity is brilliant, but we haven't had a great hooker since Fitz. Woodcock has gone slightly downhill in my mind. Still solid as though.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:05 am

Fair enough goneagain. They went on for some time. I was thinking more along the lines of Zinny, Dowd, Brown, Robin Brooke et al.

We all have our favourite players and just as we have national bias so too sometimes do we have regional bias. To me important is the team's success. I'd also like to go for that record of 17 straight test wins. We went undefeated in a 3N with three games each so no reason why the 2011 success can't be built on more. Whoever contributes to it is irrelevant.

by goneagain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:21 am

No worries Kia, maybe I'm a little older. I remember going to Wellingto Ranfurley Shield defences, and left NZ in 1990.

So that Aukland team was already legendary by the time that WC was won.

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:28 am

I'm old enough to remember that Canterbury match that started the Auckland dojo domination. Their dominance lasted for so long though I guess I remember the later years rather than the earlier ones.

I agree that any team that beats a Canterbury one must be legendary. Whistle

by disneychilly Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:29 am

You shouldn't say that about a team that had Reuben Thorne and Caleb Ralph in it recently!

by kiakahaaotearoa Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:38 am

Captain Invisible was a great. It's just that you couldn't see either him or that! Caleb Ralph... ok he was utter shoite.

Jeez we had some lean years. Shayne Philpott, Steve Cleeve. I admit in my university years I was an Otago supporter because Canterbury was so gash. Speights tasted much better than CD so felt happy pretending I was a scarfie. Good things come to those who wait though.

by blackcanelion Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:49 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Captain Invisible was a great. It's just that you couldn't see either him or that! Caleb Ralph... ok he was utter shoite.

Jeez we had some lean years. Shayne Philpott, Steve Cleeve. I admit in my university years I was an Otago supporter because Canterbury was so gash. Speights tasted much better than CD so felt happy pretending I was a scarfie. Good things come to those who wait though.

Ralph could have been a good centre. problem was he became a jack of all trades and a master of none. Not enough pace for an international winger. I remember watching him when he was a school boy, he was a classy center with some unique skills. Always felt sad he didn't get an opportunity in what I thought was his best position.

by SecretFly Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:50 am

Lance Armstrong was also great............................................

Make sure your greatness always comes from your genes.... and the milk shakes.

by offload Wed 29 Aug 2012, 11:52 am

Biltong wrote:If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time.

There is no one in the Welsh team on the verge of this. Sad

by Geordie Wed 29 Aug 2012, 12:06 pm

Legend is a word passed about to easy and frequently these days....there have been many great players...but even they are not legends...

Read...a legend?, Conrad Smith?

Come on...they are great players at the moment...but no way can they be labled legends yet.

As for England..."on the verge"....a big fat ZERO!!!!

by anotherworldofpain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 12:06 pm

offload wrote:
Biltong wrote:If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time.

There is no one in the Welsh team on the verge of this.

Adam Jones? Warburton? Roberts? North? HalfP? GJ? C'mon there are loads. If Henson can become a legend, pretty much anyone can. Someone said before in this thread that it is a team game. Don't forget the whole team nearly became legends last year! They were a tip tackle away from a RWC Final and took a GS already. They are reasonably young unit. I could see this team finally breaking through that performance barrier that seem to keep Wales just short of the top 4. I'm sure Robbie Deans already has some ideas to try to propel them into top 4 contention. Whistle

by Geordie Wed 29 Aug 2012, 12:16 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
offload wrote:
Biltong wrote:If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time.

There is no one in the Welsh team on the verge of this.

Adam Jones? Warburton? Roberts? North? HalfP? GJ? C'mon there are loads. If Henson can become a legend, pretty much anyone can. Someone said before in this thread that it is a team game. Don't forget the whole team nearly became legends last year! They were a tip tackle away from a RWC Final and took a GS already. They are reasonably young unit. I could see this team finally breaking through that performance barrier that seem to keep Wales just short of the top 4. I'm sure Robbie Deans already has some ideas to try to propel them into top 4 contention.

that pretty much sums it up for me....

by offload Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:27 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:
offload wrote:
Biltong wrote:If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time.

There is no one in the Welsh team on the verge of this.

Adam Jones? Warburton? Roberts? North? HalfP? GJ? C'mon there are loads. If Henson can become a legend, pretty much anyone can. Someone said before in this thread that it is a team game. Don't forget the whole team nearly became legends last year! They were a tip tackle away from a RWC Final and took a GS already. They are reasonably young unit. I could see this team finally breaking through that performance barrier that seem to keep Wales just short of the top 4. I'm sure Robbie Deans already has some ideas to try to propel them into top 4 contention.

AWOP
Whilst I commend your recent and sudden mastery of the English language - I fear no such improvement in your ability to WUM well or use of ironic humour Wink

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:29 pm

offload wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:
offload wrote:
Biltong wrote:If you mean legendary names that will stand out amongst their peers and will stand the test of time.

There is no one in the Welsh team on the verge of this.

Adam Jones? Warburton? Roberts? North? HalfP? GJ? C'mon there are loads. If Henson can become a legend, pretty much anyone can. Someone said before in this thread that it is a team game. Don't forget the whole team nearly became legends last year! They were a tip tackle away from a RWC Final and took a GS already. They are reasonably young unit. I could see this team finally breaking through that performance barrier that seem to keep Wales just short of the top 4. I'm sure Robbie Deans already has some ideas to try to propel them into top 4 contention.

AWOP
Whilst I commend your recent and sudden mastery of the English language - I fear no such improvement in your ability to WUM well or use of ironic humour

I think some of his WUMs and use of irony are excellent. Still WUMS though

by anotherworldofpain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:31 pm

What WUM? I was being genuine. If I cause some offence please let me know where and I can ammend the posting! Sometimes I miss the subtle points I make that are wrong.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:33 pm

Not this post AWOP, but some of your posts are clearly design to inflame British and particularly Welsh posters. Don't try and be too cute here with the denials Wink

by anotherworldofpain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:48 pm

Which one? I am in shock Shocked

We are all friends, aren't we?

by SecretFly Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:52 pm

ChequeredJersey, leave our MonteVenduvian friend alone please. It's not his fault that is first language is Dilquevialistonish and therefore uses 13 vowels to our 5... or that his country is currently ravaged by the great bean war that began with the fall of The Exalted Leader Kem in '76.

I'm sure he's happy to have been offered asylum in whatever country he now reports from.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:54 pm

He's in the UK isn't he?

by anotherworldofpain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:55 pm

Actually SF, the war began for other reasons. But history is written by the victor as it is said. Although I'm not sure who wrote the one you have apparently ~~reid~~ read.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:56 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Actually SF, the war began for other reasons. But history is written by the victor as it is said. Although I'm not sure who wrote the one you have apparently ~~reid~~ read.

by disneychilly Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:He's in the UK isn't he?

Might be in the Ecuadorian Embassy...

by ChequeredJersey Wed 29 Aug 2012, 2:57 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Which one? I am in shock We are all friends, aren't we?

Didn't say we weren't, did I? Nothing wrong with winding people up as long as it's not offensive anyway in my view

by drsambo1928 Wed 29 Aug 2012, 3:02 pm

Drico and POC for Ireland, I feel for the All Blacks Owen Franks has the potential to be a Kiwi great and SBW will always be remembered i feel.

by anotherworldofpain Wed 29 Aug 2012, 4:06 pm

Kind of wrong isn't it? The man, and his advisors have an impecable sense of timing. More than matches his undeniable athletic prowess.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 29 Aug 2012, 6:00 pm

I'd say Keith Wood and Brian O'Driscoll are the only Irish players I've seen who would be considered legends of the game outside Ireland. O'Connell is respected outside Ireland. But is he considered a legend in England or South Africa or anywhere else?

by drsambo1928 Wed 29 Aug 2012, 7:18 pm

No disrespect to Keith Wood, but I think only irish people seem to think he is a legend, i never have seen an english person rate him as highly as Drico.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 29 Aug 2012, 7:32 pm

I have. He's in the international rugby hall of fame. He has the most ever test tries for a hooker, despite playing in a rubbish Irish team. And is normally listed as one of the greatest ever B&I Lions. In fact it's his performances for the Lions that I make him so highly regarded in Britain. Especially that kick chase that led to the famous Guscott drop goal. I think he was a special player by international standards, not just Irish.

by Pot Hale Wed 29 Aug 2012, 7:56 pm

drsambo1928 wrote:No disrespect to Keith Wood, but I think only irish people seem to think he is a legend, i never have seen an english person rate him as highly as Drico.

You're possibly showing your age. Woody earned great respect as a player right across the international board. But as the op pointed out, the player can be regarded as great within their own country, never mind the views of others.

John Hayes is fondly remembered by all.
David Wallace is I believe one of the more underrated players to put on a green shirt.
Tommy Bowe ain't too shabby either.
Ronan O'Gara is Ireland's most capped player I think.
Ferris and O'Brien are two of the best back rowers the team has had in 40 odd years. They're possibly future greats.

by drsambo1928 Wed 29 Aug 2012, 7:58 pm

I still have yet to hear an English or any other person from another country to bring wood up to Drico's standard, POC is on the same level as Wood around the world I feel.

by nganboy Thu 30 Aug 2012, 1:37 am

Nah Wood was very very good. To be honest I think BOD is a little over rated. In that he is a great player but not a GREAT player as many Irish seem to think he is.

by bluestonevedder Thu 30 Aug 2012, 9:50 am

Pot Hale wrote:
drsambo1928 wrote:No disrespect to Keith Wood, but I think only irish people seem to think he is a legend, i never have seen an english person rate him as highly as Drico.

You're possibly showing your age. Woody earned great respect as a player right across the international board. But as the op pointed out, the player can be regarded as great within their own country, never mind the views of others.

John Hayes is fondly remembered by all.
David Wallace is I believe one of the more underrated players to put on a green shirt.
Tommy Bowe ain't too shabby either.
Ronan O'Gara is Ireland's most capped player I think.
Ferris and O'Brien are two of the best back rowers the team has had in 40 odd years. They're possibly future greats.

Completely agree with that. A brilliant brilliant player.

by SecretFly Thu 30 Aug 2012, 11:26 pm

nganboy wrote:Nah Wood was very very good. To be honest I think BOD is a little over rated. In that he is a great player but not a GREAT player as many Irish seem to think he is.

If there are any GREAT players in Europe at all (and that might be one you'd also choose to throw doubt on) but if there are any GREAT players here in the NH, and you're prepared to acknowledge that there might be one or two, then Brian O'Driscoll is definitely one of them, and nope, it's not just the Irish who say so - it comes from commentators from all the NH nations he has played against either at club or National level. He certainly wouldn't be bowing to many up here as his better over the duration of his time playing, certainly in his position. I guess though that the spear episode will always dampen the desire in certain areas of the world to throw too many compliments his way. So be it Smile

.

by nganboy Fri 31 Aug 2012, 2:03 am

Why would we not want to recognise BOD as great because he got speared that doesn't make sense. You would argue that Umaga is not a great because he did the spearing. Surely you're not blaming the spearee for being speared.

I reckon Martin Johnson was a great player (but a little dirty at times).
Serge Blanco was a great player too even if he was a little woosy. I'm sure there are more than that but just off the top of my head like. Anyway I don't think its fair to assume as you are seeming to that I am biased against NH players just because I don't agree with you that BOD is great. Why not assume its because I just don't think he is great.

by Dontheman Fri 31 Aug 2012, 8:36 am

Jonny Wilkinson is an icon of the game in England known inside and out for gutsy unflinching performances and committment to excellence. Second highest points scorer and probably highest number of career threatening injuries. Now playing to rave crowds in Toulon.

by anotherworldofpain Fri 31 Aug 2012, 8:56 am

Yes, if he keeps at it, one day he might be considerd "great".

by SecretFly Fri 31 Aug 2012, 2:05 pm

nganboy wrote:Why would we not want to recognise BOD as great because he got speared that doesn't make sense. You would argue that Umaga is not a great because he did the spearing. Surely you're not blaming the spearee for being speared.

I reckon Martin Johnson was a great player (but a little dirty at times).
Serge Blanco was a great player.

First things first, ngan - I didn't mention Umaga - I'm not comparing and contrasting "spearee" and "speared". Next, if you've read these pages long enough, and the old 606 too, and the acres of comment from journalists (New Zealand ones included) then you'll know and accept that O'Driscoll isn't a very popular man down your way, mostly because he's regarded as a "speared" that whinged too much, that drew attention to things that might have been best left to settle, that kept opening a sore that should have been closed, that didn't take his punishment like a man and not whine about it. That opinion isn't a secret, and whenever his name crops up in a discussion of the incident he gets his criticisms from many of your countrymen, not all of them, but many - the "speared" being almost more guilty than the "spearee", if you want to continue the analogy. So - in that scenario, I don't think it's all that illogical of me to say that many New Zealanders would be somewhat unwilling to throw plaudits his way.

Next - I'm not accusing you of a bias against NH players, I'm saying if you personally can regard any of them as having been GREAT then a big questionmark arises for me in you failing to see that Brian O'Driscoll is now and will be considered in the future to be amongst them. You mention two and I'm not saying you're not right about those two - but if they're considered GREAT because of their specific achievements then a few more could join them easily. Blanco played with France and undoubtedly helped the French cause of course but he was also personally helped achieve his GREATNESS by the quality of 'help' around him. To suggest he might have been an only GREAT dragging France up to standard is like saying New Zealand are a pretty poor and average side but for the genius of Carter. Carter of course helps his side achieve great things but he is also helped achieve his GREAT things by his highly skilled mates around him... symbiosis Wink

Ireland, on the other hand, never had the aura or the firepower of a France or New Zealand and therefore the few who do stand above the average here really do work for their reputation. It's acknowledged that O'Driscoll almost single handedly, by will and action alone, dragged Ireland to its Slam in 2009, and that was a time when critics had been saying his flame was dying, that he didn't have what it took anymore. He gave them a vintage year in response at International and club level and was pipped at the post for International Player of the Year by Richie McCaw, who had in that year only played part of a so-so season for the All Blacks.

So, in the face of being often hampered by the quality of players around him, O'Driscoll has still won everything in Rugby at club and International level except a World Cup (a disappointment he shares with the GREAT Blanco BTW Wink

). He has the record for most tries scored in the Six Nations, he's 8th on the all-time International try scoring list, he's 2nd on the all-time Heineken Cup try scoring list and he's the highest scoring Centre of all time. But nope, you won't be changing your mind of course - your prerogative, your entitlement.

by disneychilly Fri 31 Aug 2012, 2:19 pm

I thiink BOD should have gotten that player of the year, and McCaw should have had the one that went to Shane Williams. Seemed like they were making up for it. Mind you it isn't uncommon-Dusautoir hadn't played as consistently well as the others on the shortlist but had a stormer in the biggest game of all.

by gowales Fri 31 Aug 2012, 2:22 pm

I think it's really cheap that the IRB have changed the player of the year award during world cup years to basically a player of the tournament award.

Why don't they have a player of the tournament award as well as the player of the year.

by Dontheman Fri 31 Aug 2012, 4:20 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Yes, if he keeps at it, one day he might be considerd "great".

Whatever do you mean AWOP? We all know Jonny is on his last year or two and his legacy is already there. So speak up , man or retract those miserly grudging words

by Knowsit17 Fri 31 Aug 2012, 5:02 pm

For Wales I'd say Gethin Jenkins, Adam Jones and Shane Williams will be remembered as national greats for years to come. All have success rates to match the legends of the golden 70's and all have been highly successful in their respective positions. I'm tempted to also say Mike Phillips and Martyn Williams though I'm not sure others will agree given their relative ups and downs. Certainly can't see how you can argue with Phillips' impact for Wales and the Lions, though he was recently shown up by Genia on the world stage. Williams' reputation arguably stems from the fact that he was the only competitive openside Wales had to turn to for years.

Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau, Roberts, North and Halfpenny all imo have the potential to go on and be remembered as great world class players after they've retired. Maybe too early to comment on a couple of them but that's just my red-tinted opinion thumbsup

Ryan Jones has a very respectable record as an Osprey and Wales stalwart, although he did go through a titanic slump as skipper circa 2009-2011 during which time he was often villainised and not remembered too fondly.

by Pot Hale Sun 02 Sep 2012, 5:25 pm

SecretFly wrote:

First things first, ngan - I didn't mention Umaga - I'm not comparing and contrasting "spearee" and "speared". Next, if you've read these pages long enough, and the old 606 too, and the acres of comment from journalists (New Zealand ones included) then you'll know and accept that O'Driscoll isn't a very popular man down your way, mostly because he's regarded as a "speared" that whinged too much, that drew attention to things that might have been best left to settle, that kept opening a sore that should have been closed, that didn't take his punishment like a man and not whine about it. That opinion isn't a secret, and whenever his name crops up in a discussion of the incident he gets his criticisms from many of your countrymen, not all of them, but many - the "speared" being almost more guilty than the "spearee", if you want to continue the analogy. So - in that scenario, I don't think it's all that illogical of me to say that many New Zealanders would be somewhat unwilling to throw plaudits his way.

Next - I'm not accusing you of a bias against NH players, I'm saying if you personally can regard any of them as having been GREAT then a big questionmark arises for me in you failing to see that Brian O'Driscoll is now and will be considered in the future to be amongst them. You mention two and I'm not saying you're not right about those two - but if they're considered GREAT because of their specific achievements then a few more could join them easily. Blanco played with France and undoubtedly helped the French cause of course but he was also personally helped achieve his GREATNESS by the quality of 'help' around him. To suggest he might have been an only GREAT dragging France up to standard is like saying New Zealand are a pretty poor and average side but for the genius of Carter. Carter of course helps his side achieve great things but he is also helped achieve his GREAT things by his highly skilled mates around him... symbiosis

Ireland, on the other hand, never had the aura or the firepower of a France or New Zealand and therefore the few who do stand above the average here really do work for their reputation. It's acknowledged that O'Driscoll almost single handedly, by will and action alone, dragged Ireland to its Slam in 2009, and that was a time when critics had been saying his flame was dying, that he didn't have what it took anymore. He gave them a vintage year in response at International and club level and was pipped at the post for International Player of the Year by Richie McCaw, who had in that year only played part of a so-so season for the All Blacks.

So, in the face of being often hampered by the quality of players around him, O'Driscoll has still won everything in Rugby at club and International level except a World Cup (a disappointment he shares with the GREAT Blanco BTW ). He has the record for most tries scored in the Six Nations, he's 8th on the all-time International try scoring list, he's 2nd on the all-time Heineken Cup try scoring list and he's the highest scoring Centre of all time. But nope, you won't be changing your mind of course - your prerogative, your entitlement.

I think I might just copy that soliloquy and repost it any time the subject comes up again.

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