Aviva Premiership Round One Discussion Thread

[Ozzy3213]

First topic message reminder :

It's here folks, the Aviva Premiership season starts on Saturday. Rivalries will be renewed, and everyone will have an opinion on everything. Here is a discussion thread for Round One, with the fixtures listed. As teams are announced I will add them to the thread. I shall save my predictions until I start seeing line ups, as at this stage of the season nobody has any form with which to base a guess on. best of luck to all, but most importantly...



COME ON YOU IRISH

---

---

London Wasps vs. Harlequins
Preview

London Wasps
1 Tim Payne 2 Tom Lindsay 3 Fabio Staibano 4 Joe Launchbury 5 Marco Wentzel 6 James Haskell 7 Jonathan Poff 8 Billy Vunipola; 9 Joe Simpson 10 Nick Robinson 11 Tom Varndell 12 Andrea Masi 13 Elliot Daly 14 Christian Wade 15 Hugo Southwell

Replacements: 16 T Rhys Thomas 17 Simon McIntyre 18 Zak Taulafo 19 Tom Palmer 20 Ashley Johnson 21 Nic Berry 22 Tommy Bell 23 Chris Mayor

Harlequins
15. Mike Brown 14. Tom Williams 13. Matt Hopper 12. Jordan Turner-Hall 11. George Lowe 10. Nick Evans 9. Danny Care; 1. Joe Marler 2. Joe Gray 3. James Johnston 4. Olly Kohn 5. George Robson 6. Maurie Fa'asavalu 7. Chris Robshaw 8. Nick Easter

Replacements: 16. Rob Buchanan 17. Mark Lambert 18. Will Collier 19. Charlie Matthews 20. Tom Guest 21. Karl Dickson 22. Ben Botica 23. Ross Chisholm

---

Exeter Chiefs vs. Sale Sharks
Preview

Exeter Chiefs
15 Phil Dollman 14 Josh Tatupu 13 Ian Whitten 12 Jason Shoemark 11 Matt Jess 10 Ignacio Mieres 9 Will Chudley; 1 Brett Sturgess 2 Chris Whitehead 3 Craig Mitchell 4 Tom Hayes 5 Aly Muldowney 6 Tom Johnson 7 James Scaysbrook 8 Richard Baxter

Replacements: 16 Simon Alcott 17 Ben Moon 18 Chris Budgen 19 James Hanks 20 James Phillips 21 Kevin Barrett 22 Gareth Steenson 23 Luke Arscott

Sale Sharks
15. Rob Miller 14. Will Addison 13. Johnny Leota 12. Sam Tuitupou 11. Corne Uys 10. Nick Macleod 9. Dwayne Peel; 1. Eifion Lewis-Roberts 2. Joe Ward 3. Vadim Cobilas 4. Richie Gray 5. Fraser McKenzie 6. James Gaskell 7. David Seymour (c.) 8.Andy Powell

Replacements: 16. Marc Jones 17. Ross Harrison 18. Tony Buckley 19. Kearnan Myall 20. Richie Vernon 21. Cillian Willis 22. Danny Cipriani 23. Jordan Davies.

---

Gloucester vs. Northampton Saints
Preview

Gloucester
15. Jonny May 14. Charlie Sharples 13. Mike Tindall 12. Billy Twelvetrees 11. James Simpson-Daniel 10. Freddie Burns 9. Dan Robson; 1. Nick Wood 2. Darren Dawidiuk 3. Rupert Harden 4. Tom Savage 5. Alex Brown (capt) 6. Matt Cox 7. Akapusi Qera 8 Ben Morgan

Replacements: 16. Dan Murphy 17. Huia Edmonds 18. Shaun Knight 19. Will James 20. Sione Kalamafoni 21. Dave Lewis 22. Henry Trinder 23. Martyn Thomas

Northampton Saints
15. Ben Foden 14. Ken Pisi 13. George Pisi 12. Dominic Waldouck 11. Vasily Artemyev 10. Ryan Lamb 9. Lee Dickson; 1. Soane Tonga'uiha 2. Dylan Hartley 3. Brian Mujati 4. Samu Manoa 5. Christian Day 6. Phil Dowson 7. Tom Wood 8. GJ Van Velze

Replacements: 16. Mike Haywood 17. Alex Waller 18. Paul Doran-Jones 19. Mark Sorenson 20. Rhys Oakley 21. Martin Roberts 22. Stephen Myler 23. Luther Burrell

---

Worcester Warriors vs. Bath Rugby
Preview

Worcester Warriors
15 Chris Pennell 14 Josh Drauniniu 13 Alex Grove 12 Josh Matavesi 11 David Lemi 10 Andy Goode 9 Shaun Perry; 1 Matt Mullan 2 Aleki Lutui 3 John Andress 4 James Percival 5 Dean Schofield 6 Chris Jones 7 Sam Betty 8 Semisi Taulava

Replacements: 16 Ollie Hayes 17 Ceri Jones 18 James Currie 19 Craig Gillies 20 Matt Kvesic 21 Jonny Arr 22 Joe Carlisle 23 Ben Howard

Bath Rugby
15. Nick Abendanon 14. Tom Biggs 13. Dan Hipkiss 12. Matt Banahan 11. Kyle Eastmond 10. Olly Barkley 9. Michael Claassens; 1. Paul James 2. Lee Mears 3. David Wilson 4. Stuart Hooper (c) 5. Dominic Day 6. Carl Fearns 7. Francois Louw 8. Ben Skirving

Replacements: 16. Ross Batty 17. Nathan Catt 18. Kane Palma-Newport 19. Dave Attwood 20. Will Skuse 21. Mark McMillan 22. Ollie Devoto 23. Jack Cuthbert

---

Saracens vs. London Irish
Preview

Saracens
15 Alex Goode 14 Chris Ashton 13 Joel Tomkins 12 Brad Barritt 11 Chris Wyles 10 Charlie Hodgson 9 Richard Wigglesworth; 1 Mako Vunipola 2 Schalk Brits 3 Petrus du Plessis 4 Steve Borthwick 5 Mouritz Botha 6 Kelly Brown 7 Will Fraser 8 Ernst Joubert

Replacements: 16 Jamie George 17 Rhys Gill 18 Carlos Nieto 19 Eoin Sheriff 20 Jackson Wray 21 Neil de Kock 22 Nils Mordt 23 James Short

London Irish
15. Tom Homer 14. Topsy Ojo 13. Jonathan Joseph 12. Sailosi Tagicakibau 11. Marland Yarde 10. Steve Shingler 9. Tomás O’Leary; 1. Max Lahiff 2. Scott Lawson 3. Leo Halavatau 4. George Skivington 5. Bryn Evans (Captain) 6. Jamie Gibson 7. Ofisa Treviranus 8. Jon Fisher

Replacements: 16. Brian Blaney 17. Halani Aulika 18. Cai Griffiths 19. Kieran Low 20. Declan Danaher 21. Alex Gray 22. Shane Geraghty 23. Jack Moates

---

London Welsh vs. Leicester Tigers
Preview

London Welsh
15 Tom Arscott 14 Phil MacKenzie 13 Sonny Parker 12 Hudson Tonga'uiha 11 Joe Ajuwa 10 Gordon Ross 9 Jonah Holmes; 1 Franck Montanella 2 Neil Briggs 3 Paulica Ion 4 Jonathan Mills 5. Kirill Kulemin 6 Ed Williamson 7 Lee Beach 8 Daniel Browne.

Replacements: 16 Greg Bateman 17 Tom Bristow 18 Arthur Joly 19 Martin Purdy 20 Alfie To'oala 21 Nick Runciman 22 Seb Jewell 23 Nick Scott

Leicester Tigers
15. Geordan Murphy 14. Scott Hamilton 13. Manu Tuilagi 12. Anthony Allen 11. Vereniki Goneva 10. Toby Flood 9. Micky Young; 1. Lugovi'i Mulipola 2. Tom Youngs 3. Dan Cole 4. Rob Andrew 5. Geoff Parling 6. Steve Mafi 7. Julian Salvi 8. Thomas Waldrom

Replacements: 16. George Chuter 17. Boris Stankovich 18. Martin Castrogiovanni 19. Brett Deacon 20. Jordan Crane 21. Sam Harrison 22. George Ford 23. Matt Smith

---

[yappysnap]

Probably Haskell off if I'm honest. But it's pretty difficult to guess...

Agree with all of that Cumbrian except Launchberry, I just didn't see much from him on Sat that said to me he's an England must have.

Wade looked class but it's a worry about how anonymous he became when


we put an actual back three player on and started playing.

I thought Wasps two Italians did very well too.

Think it's more that he didn't get much ball and was tired in the last 20

Why would he be tired? And wouldn't that be a concern for an International player?

[ChequeredJersey]

All that try scoring

[LondonTiger]

Nah. Wasps have yet to be paidf last months wages, so he could not afford to fund the round of drinks obligatory when you get a hat trick.

(Hence why he passed back to Varndell when over the line)

[Hound_of_Harrow]

"Flood, I thought, played pretty well and his passing was key to everything good tigers did."

+1

Flood was quality on Sunday with ball in hand. He put one punt straight out and he missed a couple of kicks, but it was at a ground he hadn't played at before.

From an England pov I was happy enough.

[ChequeredJersey]

Apparently Botica just had an excellent game for Quins A. 100% from the boot I think, scored 17 points against Saracens Storm.

[ChequeredJersey]

http://www.quins.co.uk/news/6420.php

[ChequeredJersey]

Jordan Burns looks like one for the future too

[Jimpy]

Ozzy3213 is it worth putting on a show by having a paper thin defense?

5/10 for a try bonus win. Nice that means you think we can improve a lot. I like the sound of that!

Sounds like the Tagicakibau gamble at 12 failed. Should really play wingers on the wing! Suppose there wasn't much choice though due to injuries. The alternatives of Geraghty or Shingler at 12 would have hardly inspired confidence!

Ashton is a much maligned player but there's no doubting his quality. He's a confidence player.

Ultimately it's the forwards who lay the foundations though.

I think that is doing a disservice to both teams.Particularly Wasps in the first half. Their work at the breakdown producing quick turnovers & then real pace to unlock the defence of Quins was sublime at times.

Our fitness & decisions with substitutes (Masi & Haskell) was more to do with Wasps demise than just a poor defense per se.

A high scoring game doesn't always mean poor defences.

I didn't go to the game so can't give an assessment of defenses but conceding 4 or more tries doesn't show your defense is working well. It might be down to the opposition playing well but defenses can be very watertight. Strong cover tackles for example, forcing errors, squeezing the life out of the opposition and slowing the attacking side down.

Maybe paper thin is harsh but it's not good defending. 4+ tries for each side makes for an exciting game though.

I did go to the match, the Sarracens v Irish match was dire in comparison to the fare dished up in the first match. By half way through the second half of your match, the stands were emptying fast.

Anyone playing the Not Nots on Saturday would have been made to look good in my opinion, so its hard to gauge the performance of Saracens. They kicked a lot less than usual which was pleasing to see, but in truth, LI made so many mistakes and gave them so much time on the ball, that they were almost given free reign to chuck it about. Didn't stop the odd bomb going up though, it was almost inevitable I suppose.

On the other hand, Saracens were definately taking the wee wee - they constantly slowed play down (So Borthwick could catch up I suppose) and were bearing charmed lives at the breakdown, where Barnes seemed unwilling or unable to penalise them for endless petty infringements.

My assessment was that Saracens didn't play badly, but they didn't really play well either - but then, they didn't have to, LI were simply awful.

[beshocked]

Fair enough Jimpy. Thanks for your thoughts on the game.

Next matches are:

Harlequins vs London Welsh

Bath vs Wasps

Leicester vs Worcester

London Irish vs Gloucester

Sale vs Saracens

Saints vs Exeter

[yappysnap]

Bath to win by 3 ( close messy game with two tries each)
Leicester by 21 (but still a slow game by their standards)
Gloucester by 7 (high scoring game from both sides)
Saracens by 15 (another slow start from Saracens before they turn the screw)
Saints by 5 (really physical game with few tries but lots of scrums and fights)

[Bathite]

Sale and Irish will be looking for a big reaction at home after suffering thumpings. Bath will need a big improvement to beat a resurgent Wasps team as well. Can Exeter sneak a win at Saints?

Quins by 15
Leicester by 15
Irish by 4
Saracens by 5
Saints by 3

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Its very frustrating to see Tigers get the weak teams when they actually have most of their players available.

Saints vs Exeter is the big fixture of this round

[beshocked]

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I know. You have three of the weakest sides in week 3, 4 and 5 too!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Its very frustrating to see Tigers get the weak teams when they actually have most of their players available.

PSW, Expect an article from Portnoy shortly ... "The injustices of the fixture list towards Tigers"

[LondonTiger]

Peter seabiscuit wheeler I know. You have three of the weakest sides in week 3, 4 and 5 too!

I strongly suspect we will be resting players in Round 3.

[beshocked]

I hope so London Tiger but why would you?

If you rest players I don't want to hear the excuses of "it wasn't our best team etc".

Looking forward to the clash.

[LondonTiger]

We have to rest players at some point if we want to get out of our HC group, however at the same time we will be wanting to finish in the AP play-offs.

Cockerill will have to be pragmatic, and after the Worcester game, from which we have to get 5 points, we play Sarries, Quins, Exeter, Sale (on a Friday night oop north), Toulouse and Ospreys.

The most sensible match to rest players is the one at Wembley, with limited rotation for the Salford game.

I promise not to make excuses so long as you avoid bragging should you beat a weakened team. After all the only important match between us last season was the play-off match

[beshocked]

LondonTiger if you rest players against us you deserve to be hammered! In my opinion it's hardly a good marker to be resting your players against your first true test of the season.

The most important match was the one we lost at VR actually. If we won that we wouldn't have had to go to the Tigers' den.

I thought we would lose at WR even though I did go. First time going to WR recently I thought we would lose.

3 most important losses were Clermont,Leicester at VR,Quins at Wembley. The momentum was lost.

Failing in those tight encounters in the AP meant we didn't defend our title.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Wouldnt it make more sense to rest players for a game they could win with a second string? The 4 points is far more important than the 5th, so throwing the Saracens game to improve the chances of a BP against a side the LV team would be expected to beat is bonkers.

I actually find it quite frustrating that Tigers have a largely fit/available squad for two games against weak opposition.

Cockerill tends to be quite pragmatic about these thinsg anyway, if his best players are fit and available he will pick them knowing full well they probably wont be next time he wants them. Use them on the odd occassions he actually has the chance to.

[beshocked]

Agree with that PSW. It's all about laying down the marker.

Saracens are the first side - I would rest some of your players against Exeter personally.

You know that if you do put out your 2nd string Saracens are one of those sides with the potential to ruthlessly punish it.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Agree with that PSW. It's all about laying down the marker.

Saracens are the first side - I would rest some of your players against Exeter personally.
You know that if you do put out your 2nd string Saracens are one of those sides with the potential to ruthlessly punish it.

Seriously! Did you not watch last season's games?

[beshocked]

Effervescing Elephant Leicester have a choice - either rest players vs Quins,Saracens or Exeter. Exeter are good but not better than Quins or Saracens.

Of course I watched last season's games.

In all honesty Leicester should have really rested players against LW and should against Worcester.

[LondonTiger]

Last season the bad start meant we overplayed the returning RWC players. That had a major impact towards the end of the season.

The player workload has to be managed. I doubt Cockers will pick a second string team against anyone - but if you were to rest some players I would say the pragmatic decision is to rest them from a match you will probably lose anyway rather than one you should win, but may lose.

[LondonTiger]

Beshocked - resting players for the first match is dumb, the players need a rest after they have actually done something.

[beshocked]

Rest is the wrong word I mean carefully manage/blood.

E.g. what's wrong with playing a halfback combo of Young and Ford, playing Youngs at hooker etc.

Leicester have good strength in depth so you can rotate better than most sides. You shouldn't make wholesale changes though.

The changes have to be organic and logical.

[LondonTiger]

I would think we will see Ford/Flood alternating over the next couple of weeks. Sadly Mickey Young damaged his ankle early on against LW. Harrison then took a while to get up to speed.

Crane and Waldrom will be rotating, as of course will Cole and Castro.

You are right, it is not about wholesale changes but managing the squad workload. we just need to make sure we win enough matches early on to ensure we can roatate OK.

I would expectthe team for this weekend to contain 3 or 4 changes. Castro to start instead of cole is the most obvious.

[yappysnap]

Just out of interest when was the last time Cole was out injured? Just struck me that he keeps going from club to country and back again injury free without any real rests.

Shows how effective rotation can be for a player when you compare that to say Corbs or Sheridan!

[LondonTiger]

I am not sure he has missed a game due to injury since entering the tigers firstteam on the 08/09 season.

[yappysnap]

That's pretty dame impressive LT, I wish more teams could/would rotate like that.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Think its a coincidence that he only starts half his games and shares "first choice" with Castro?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Beshocked - resting players for the first match is dumb, the players need a rest after they have actually done something.

Someone should call the IRFU and let them know this

[HammerofThunor]

Think its a coincidence that he only starts half his games and shares "first choice" with Castro?

Hasn't Castro been injured quite a bit? If so then yes it is something of a coincidence (although of course more games means you have more chance of being injured).

[LondonTiger]

Castro has missed the odd game, but never a run of injured matches.

That Cole does not have to start every match is most definitely of benefit in terms of long term fitness. Slightly worrying is the amount of time he has to spend on the pitch for England due to lack of suitable cover.

[yappysnap]

He rarely gets subbed if ever right?

[LondonTiger]

According to statbunker he was subbed on 50mins in second test v SA meaning he has played 750 of the last 800 minutes.

In part that is because we have tended to have a LH who can cover TH on the bench. With the move to two props in international games I am sure he will be subbed more. I just have no idea who the back-up will be.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Cole rarely gets subbed for England, but almost never players more than 60 minutes for Tigers
Last season he started 13 games came on as a sub in 8 , the season before it was an 11 11 split . Those games where he started he rarely saw out the whole game.

If he were playing 80 minute for Tigers like he does for England hed been destroyed in no time. They manage him far better, largely because they have Castro.

[LondonTiger]

I think we are all in agreement PSR.


ps who is starting the ~Round 2 thread.

[yappysnap]

I thought Ozzy would do it...

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

According to statbunker he was subbed on 50mins in second test v SA meaning he has played 750 of the last 800 minutes.

In part that is because we have tended to have a LH who can cover TH on the bench. With the move to two props in international games I am sure he will be subbed more. I just have no idea who the back-up will be.

= Budgie

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

According to statbunker he was subbed on 50mins in second test v SA meaning he has played 750 of the last 800 minutes.

In part that is because we have tended to have a LH who can cover TH on the bench. With the move to two props in international games I am sure he will be subbed more. I just have no idea who the back-up will be.

= Budgie

He could double as Ben Morgans personal trainer

[Ozzy3213]

I thought Ozzy would do it...

Sorry, snowed under at work and home.

[yappysnap]

I thought Ozzy would do it...

Sorry, snowed under at work and home.

I can do it today if it helps?

[Sponsored content]