Global Transfer System and compensation for clubs...!

There is a seperatiion beginning in elite club rugby. The have and the have nots may not be massively separated by results but they are by their financial power.

Every year more young stars are offered contracts abroad depriving the teams they leave who can not afford to keep them.

It is time for a transfer market where clubs are compensated for the loss of their star players to other clubs.


Here are a couple of links to articles


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/mobile/rugby-union/17568661

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/johnbeattie/2012/04/compensation_calls_have_hollow.html

Surely a transfer fee is if a player wants to leave their contract early? The vast majority of rugby players fulfill their contract obligations.

A transfer fee would strain loyalty. It means a rich club could pay a transfer fee and get a player before their contract runs out.

More transfer fees would actually make the problem far worse.

I think high profile players leaving actually creates opportunities for youngsters to come through and shine.

Look at the O's. They have lost some big names but are they really missing them? Winning the Pro12 would suggest they aren't that much.

The best players can actually at as blockers for young talent.

More transfer fees would actually make the problem far worse

+1. The richer clubs could afford to just cherry pick the best talent and leave the other teams unable to compete for the signing of the best talent. The richer clubs could also block talented players from leaving by putting in large buy out clauses into contracts etc.

I think you'll struggle to change anything because of the Bosman Ruling stemming from when football had the problem of clubs controlling players. Contracts have to be bought out or waved by the employer (the club), players without contracts should be allowed to move as they wish. The key is for clubs to sign young talent to long term contracts, which makes it unlikely they'll leave before giving something back in terms of performance. Currently a lot of teams offer only one or two year deals in order to protect them against a players loss of form or potential injury.

If clubs like the Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ospreys, Scarlets, Dragons as well as a magnitude of SH and Island teams, had received transfer fees for all the players they lost over the last two seasons they would have a lot of money to invest in their excellent uouth players from the academies and playing squad.

Very good points Sam.

The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

Newcastle have been one of the biggest losers in the players leaving. I know it's harsh but to a certain extent it's their own fault. They have all these exciting players yet haven't really looked like making a mark on the AP since winning the AP in 98. I think they have lacked the ingredients needed.

With Dean Richards (ironically a Leicester man) at the helm, Newcastle now look like they have real ambition.

The likes of Saracens,Saints and Quins have shown in the last 5 years it's possible to do well if you have the right ingredients.

Maestegmafia those clubs only have themselves to blame. Bar Ospreys none of them have really been that successful.

Success leads to a virtuous circle. Glasgow and Edinburgh had pretty good seasons which has led to strengthening of their squads.

There is not such a disparity in salary that the smaller clubs can't do well.

If you see progress you are less likely to leave.

beshocked wrote:The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

What you just said is absolute fantasy.

We don't want to end up like football where English teams are paying more for a player than the annual turnover of a club in Scotland (ex Old firm).

Where I do think they can get compensation is if a player under the age of 23 (could be 21) is taken by another club (at the end of their contract) compensation is due to the club that has developed and spent money on them for the professional game.

Anyone above the given age won't be covered.

Did Ben Morgan not transfer for a fee?

Quins have recruited 8 academy boys on to full contracts this season in the first team, if you're proactive and doing well you can keep you're young players. It's usually the clubs own fault if they do lose youngsters, I can't think of many that i'd call stolen.

maestegmafia wrote:If clubs like the Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ospreys, Scarlets, Dragons as well as a magnitude of SH and Island teams, had received transfer fees for all the players they lost over the last two seasons they would have a lot of money to invest in their excellent uouth players from the academies and playing squad.

Looking at players leaving the Weslh regions this season:

Blues have not developed (and would have had to have paid to transfer in) Richie Rees (Edinburgh), Dan Parks (Connacht), Casey Laulala (Munster), Gethin Jenkins (Toulon), Xavier Rush (retired) Paul Tito (retired), Ma'ama Molitika (TBC), Gavin Henson (dismissed during season).

Dragons have not developed (and would have had to have paid to transfer in) Matthew Jones (Bristol, during season), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Aled Brew (Biarritz), Martyn Thomas (Gloucester), Hugo Ellis (Rossyln Park), Ben Castle (retired during season), Tom Willis (retired during season), Scott Morgan (Coventry).

Ospreys have not developed (and would have had to have paid to transfer in) Nikki Walker (Worcester), Tommy Bowe (Ulster), Sonny Parker (London Welsh), Cai Griffiths (London Irish).

Scarlets have not developed (and would have to have paid to transfer in) Lou Reed (Cardiff Blues), Damian Welch (Exeter), Ben Morgan (Gloucester), Sean Lamont (Glasgow), Ruki Tipuna (Bristol, during season), Iestyn Thomas (retired, during season), Rhys Thomas (retired, during season).

So yeah whilst we all would have made some cash selling off players contracts we would also have lost a fair few notes transfering in players.

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

What you just said is absolute fantasy.

Didn't Jon Davies and a few other Welsh international player re-sign for their regions, rather than leaving for big money, or going to 'more successful' regions?

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

What you just said is absolute fantasy.

Have you got any proof of this? And is it causing a problem for the regions?

If the player wants to go and chase money then do you want them playing for your side? Surely you'd be much better off with commited youngsters who really want to play for their club.

I don't see where the problem is, yes a few high profile players have left but by all accounts that's been better for the regions.

Scotland only have two clubs so have to have players in the Prem or other Rabo sides and Ireland have funky tax breaks to keep their top talent in Ireland.

The only teams that suffer are the small English clubs to other English clubs.

cp10 I believe Morgan did transfer over for a fee. Don't want to see more of them.

If you do that you are affecting freedom of players to move.

Exactly yappysnap. Though I do agree a little bit. There is a bit of poaching (my side aren't innocent either) but ultimately it's players believing they are progressing their career. Moving to a stronger club will help the players' prospects surely?

Maestegmafia surely there are ways to prevent this if you want. E.g. if you don't play in Wales you are barred from international selection.

You could give the players tax breaks like they do in Ireland etc.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

What you just said is absolute fantasy.

Didn't Jon Davies and a few other Welsh international player re-sign for their regions, rather than leaving for big money, or going to 'more successful' regions?

Ben Morgan signed a two year contract extension for you guys then moved to Gloucester.

Maestegmafia have your own club Ospreys not benefitted from the leaving of high profile names?

It means instead of the galacticos name tag the Ospreys have developed a real team ethos based around talented youngsters.

I am wholeheartedly in agreement with Yappysnap and scarletspiderman.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

That would depend on a case to case basis. If the young Welsh player had made a name for himself on an academy contract and then took the money elsewhere it probably would be 3 times as much in England. English teams have a pretty constricting wage cap though, the aren't in the same league as the French teams who have a much bigger wage cap.

For instance Morgan left the Scarlets, the Scarlets received £100k which was the value of the final season of his contract. At Gloucester there is no way in hell he is earning £300k per season. That just won't happen. He may well have got a pay rise but I would be suprised if it is any more than £150k.

You could give the players tax breaks like they do in Ireland etc.

No you couldn't. HMRC govern the tax regulations for England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. They will not give tax breaks to Welsh rugby players in order to promote Welsh rugby. The Irish tax authority gave out the option of a tax rebate upon retirement on the taxes paid in Ireland if the players started and finished their career in Ireland. That was in order to try and stimulate the economy in Ireland and stop all the best athletes going abroad (it happened in football anyway and Galic football has been targeted by Aussie rules).

maestegmafia wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:The easiest way to create loyalty is to create a good ethos and be successful.

If the player in question is happy enough they'll stay at the club even if it's on a lower salary.

French clubs and some English clubs are offering three times the salary of a regional or provincial side.

What you just said is absolute fantasy.

Didn't Jon Davies and a few other Welsh international player re-sign for their regions, rather than leaving for big money, or going to 'more successful' regions?

Ben Morgan signed a two year contract extension for you guys then moved to Gloucester.

Ben Morgan is one of the more unique cases because Scarlets got a transfer fee. Most players see out their contracts. We want to see less examples like Morgan! In my opinion he should have picked England or Wales sooner! Morgan is also an Englishman moving back to his own country so a different case.

Sam,

The tax system has worked well for us in keeping guys at home.

The reason the Gaelic Footballers go to Australia is that GAA sports are amatuer games. They don't get paid at all.

I agree with general theme here. Transfer fees are not the way to go. If you have the right structures in place this should not affect things that much.

Be great if we could have control of tax breaks in Wales. Scotland will be first, hopefully in my lifetime we'll see Wales too.

The reason the Gaelic Footballers go to Australia is that GAA sports are amatuer games. They don't get paid at all.

Ah, I thought they were 'amatuer' in spirit and semi pro in actuality, so travel and appearence fees were the norm but no full times contracts. Sort of like Rugby before it became professional. The tax system has worked well in rugby circles but not done anything for your football teams.

Ben Morgan is one of the more unique cases because Scarlets got a transfer fee. Most players see out their contracts. We want to see less examples like Morgan!

I'm happy with the precedent that you just cannot walk away from a contract. If you want to cut your contract short you have to pay up, whether it be the club or the player some compensation is required. Tigers had the problem with Dupuy, his girlfriend wanted to go back to France but he didn't announce this until pre season. Tigers demanded compensation and Stade Francais came in and paid it in order to sign him. Tigers got the compensation to spend on a new scrum half and Stade Francais got a player they wanted with Dupuy and his misses going back to France as they wanted. Everyone was a winner.

If a player is out of contract they are entitled to negotiate a new contract with whoever they like, free of restrictions.

If a club wants to keep them they should have offered longer contracts.

Ulster have kept their top players and we do not benefit from tax breaks.

I can't think of one player who left Ulster in the last decade for financial reasons.

Oh and talking about Glasgow and Embra losing players, at times the SRU and AR have actively encouraged players to leave to ensure a broader player base.

Ulster have kept their top players and we do not benefit from tax breaks.

I can't think of one player who left Ulster in the last decade for financial reasons.

A sensible approach to contract renewals aided with a bit of central contracting and the Belfast Bunch continue to grow in strength. It can be done it just requires planning and forthought.

Maes & Shocked -: Ben Morgan was more of an unusual case. Frist off he did not leave the region for a better pay cheque elsewhere. He left because he has become an English International, and it would make his chances of making the national side far easier than it would playing outside of the country (much like a heap of young welsh internationals are still with the regions instead of taking money elsewhere). Secondly Glaws did pay £100k to the Scarlets to buy him out of his contract, and they also paid the Scarlets another £100k to buy Nigel Davies out of his contract. However it is known that if you leave your contract early you need to buy yourself out of it (or have a club do it for you). I know of atleast one player who was looking at buing his contract off his region as he thought it was being run poorly (it all sorted itself out though), and Dai Young was sold to Wasps (I think when they shook hands and said done, Pieman said 'you have been')

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster have kept their top players and we do not benefit from tax breaks.

I can't think of one player who left Ulster in the last decade for financial reasons.

Tommy Bowe?

I thought there was some iffy thing where the wages came via the IRFU which was in the Republic, and the wages got tax breaks that way?

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and talking about Glasgow and Embra losing players, at times the SRU and AR have actively encouraged players to leave to ensure a broader player base.

Very true. With only two club teams it's understandable Scotland have taken this stance.

Going to other club competitions can help develop players and make them more complete.

Rhys Gill went to Saracens from Cardiff Blues. He was down the prop pecking order I believe when he left. He's become a better player with more gametime than he would have got at Cardiff. Is it fair that by Maestegmafia's ruling that Saracens would have had to pay a transfer fee?

SS

I have no problem with the way things have gone in the past. And I think Scarlets were dealt a fair deal regarding Morgan and Davies.

I am more concerned about the future.

We are producing masses of young talented players, we are trying to keep them in Wales to improve the standard of our rugby at all levels, but if these lads are good enough to earn contracts overseas they will go...!!!

There have already been plenty of articles about high profile young welsh players being made offers, North, Davies, Cuthbert etc...!

But it is those leaving premiership clubs at a young age that will hurt welsh rugby, each one lost degrades the level of competition, thus lowering the quality of player produced.

The WRU regions and clubs in Wales put a massive amount of money and effort in to youth rugby in Wales at all levels and we are reaping massive rewards from it.

But unless the situation is looked at I can see others reaping the rewards far more than us.

I am not saying compensation is necesarily the solution. But I am interested to tout and read a few ideas on the concept...

I thought there was some iffy thing where the wages came via the IRFU which was in the Republic, and the wages got tax breaks that way?

No it doesn't work that way, just because it is foreign income doesn't mean it is tax exempt. They may well have their wages paid to a service company and look to pay only corporation tax and IR35 tax that way but at some point HMRC will tax them. The Irish authorities may tax them at source but I doubt they'd offer the money back to the player if they live in Northern Ireland, if the player lived in one of Irish counties of Ulster then their may be a way round it but that would be pretty convuluted and you'd need a savvy accountant.

But it is those leaving premiership clubs at a young age that will hurt welsh rugby, each one lost degrades the level of competition, thus lowering the quality of player produced.

Yeah, but you can lure more English students there with the promise of a degree and a bit of rugby and then by the time they are qualified they are Welsh eligible and you have the next Cuthbert.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster have kept their top players and we do not benefit from tax breaks.

I can't think of one player who left Ulster in the last decade for financial reasons.

Tommy Bowe?

I thought there was some iffy thing where the wages came via the IRFU which was in the Republic, and the wages got tax breaks that way?

Tommy left because of a rudderless club and dissention in the dressing room.
The atmosphere was poisonous.
Ulster were prepared to match his Osprey salary

Money was not the issue.

Ulster players place at work is Ravenhill - they get zero benefit from the tax breaks.
They looked into it but could not find a legal way round it.

Thirty-odd posts in and no mention of the Bosman ruling, players' agents, the value of contracts viz-viz, player/club commitments etc..

Geoff - I can understnad Bowe leaving not being down to cash. Dwayne Peel did the same when he left the Scarlets, he was actually offered more to stay than to go.

I thought that there were some weird ways of living in a non GB nation as a tax exile and taking wages from an non-GB source etc etc, that meant you could do the tax dodge. I know a few people working overseas in the oil industry that can only be in the UK for 6 weeks (or something like that) before they get stung with tax. But I will tke your word for it, after all if there were a way then sure as eggs are eggs Ulster would have found it.

The bosman ruling is mentioned in the 4th post from the top Portnoy. Agents well, they get their fees irrelevent of the whether a player moves for a transfer fee or not as they are usually the middle men.

"Hey Cockers, I hear you've got a couple of injury issues in the front row. I've got a big Samoan power house who is desperate for a pro contract, fancy taking a look?"

"Ok, Freddie let's get that Visa sorted and we'll have give the big bloke a trial."

Mulipola rocks up to Tigers, does well and earns a contract. Freddie gets a fee for setting the deal up and everyone is happy. Not all agents are money grabbing so and sos who advise players to just follow the money.

I thought that there were some weird ways of living in a non GB nation as a tax exile and taking wages from an non-GB source etc etc, that meant you could do the tax dodge. I know a few people working overseas in the oil industry that can only be in the UK for 6 weeks (or something like that) before they get stung with tax. But I will tke your word for it, after all if there were a way then sure as eggs are eggs Ulster would have found it.

There's non-residency rulings and also some naval tax codes that are pretty specialist so aren't an easy comparison. A mate of mine works for BP on an oil tanker and does 3 months on and 3 months off. Occasionally he has to be out of the country for an extra week or so just to make sure his residency status remains on the right side of ruling but that is down to naval regs that differ from the norm (I think, I'm not a tax expert). The Ulster boys aren't so lucky as they don't work or live abroad and as Ulster RFC is liable to HMRC they get taxed at source via PAYE.

Mea culpa Sam (deactivates case sensitive radio button on search icon)

36's agent?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

"Hey Cockers, I hear you've got a couple of injury issues in the front row. I've got a big Samoan power house who is desperate for a pro contract, fancy taking a look?"

"Ok, Freddie let's get that Visa sorted and we'll have give the big bloke a trial."

Mulipola rocks up to Tigers, does well and earns a contract. Freddie gets a fee for setting the deal up and everyone is happy. Not all agents are money grabbing so and sos who advise players to just follow the money.

Good skit...!
You could do one for Manu Tuilagi re the passport controversey?

uk borders "hey Cockers, we're just about to deport an illegal islander who has no visa, says all his brothers play for you...! Apparently this kid is a unit. Anyhow he's pretty upset about going home and says he'll do anything to stay, EVEN PLAY FOR ENGLAND"...

RC "Cheers mate, I'll call our local MP/shareholder and see if he can get him a passport sharpish...!"



Only teasing lads...!

Can you do one for Manu Tuilagi re the passport controversey?

All twelve-year-olds should be responsible for their paperwork.

Maybe you should do it maes?

Only joking around Portnoy...!!!

I'm sure it's all legit.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Ulster have kept their top players and we do not benefit from tax breaks.

I can't think of one player who left Ulster in the last decade for financial reasons.

Tommy Bowe?

I thought there was some iffy thing where the wages came via the IRFU which was in the Republic, and the wages got tax breaks that way?

Is Bowe not from the Republic (but its still an Ulster county)? Could he not have moved back to his old town in the Republic but commute across the border to play? Can he live there and be paid by the IRFU (with the tax deduction)?

I think that HMRC might have something to say about that cp.

As Angela Merkel might about the Irish tax breaks resolves in the EuroDM-Zone end-game.

36's agent?

I said 'Not all', in that case the agent was a bit shifty. "Yeah Cockers, Billy will be with you next season." Two days later, "hey Cockers, Billy needs to be down in Gloucester this afternoon he's signing a contract with them, I got him a great deal, laters."

Is Bowe not from the Republic (but its still an Ulster county)? Could he not have moved back to his old town in the Republic but commute across the border to play? Can he live there and be paid by the IRFU (with the tax deduction)?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/17/usain-bolt-britain-tax-laws_n_1797575.html

I bet the southern hemisphere countries would be delighted with this. It might not be a bad thing for Northern hemisphere countries to limit the number of SH players coming here. Theres a lot of overrated journeymen among the star names.

No way in this world would French clubs buy into this.

They already get most of them free.

The other issue is it would most likely drive players salaries down because if a percentage of their budget is spent paying clubs for release of players then less money would be available to them to offer in salaries. Dont forget agents fees already take substantial revenue out of teams budgets.

Might work for other sports where money is freely available but I cant see this working in Rugby because at Club/Province/Region level as the money to run themselves properly isnt even there yet.

LondonTiger wrote:If a player is out of contract they are entitled to negotiate a new contract with whoever they like, free of restrictions.

If a club wants to keep them they should have offered longer contracts.

+1 Solves the problem straight away. If a player is still under contract, then they can't be poached without the club being recompensed. Why don't clubs give longer contracts? Because they are wary of taking a risk committing to a player that might get injured or not cut the mustard in a couple of years time. So clubs can take the risk of committing to a player with a long contract and tie up future salary or they can choose short salaries and risk losing the player when it comes to renegotiating a new contract.

To me, this smacks of clubs wanting to be protected from all angles but at no point would they have to make a commitment to the player.

Maes, isn't it up to the regions to make sure they are sustainable and possibly profitable set ups.

They have no one to blame for the current situation of not having any money now.

The NZRU has been proposing transfer compensation to the IRB for years - given that there are more NZers playing professionally outside NZ than in NZ you can understand the reasoning.

And it gets voted down every time.

Well if the NZRU would let private investors control their franchises then they possibly wouldn't have as much problems. You can't have the best of both worlds

gowales wrote:Well if the NZRU would let private investors control their franchises then they possibly wouldn't have as much problems. You can't have the best of both worlds

That's what we did in Wales and it has definitely not worked...!