England v South Africa, 3rd ODI, The Oval

First topic message reminder :

England can snatch back the No.1 ODI Ranking with victory today and level the series but that will be unlikely with all the negative off-the-field drama that is happening. On the other hand, South Africa will be looking to cement their No.1 ODI ranking and go 2-0 up in the series. Should be a cracker of a game then.

England 1 Alastair Cook (capt), 2 Ian Bell, 3 Jonathan Trott, 4 Ravi Bopara, 5 Eoin Morgan, 6 Craig Kieswetter (wk), 7 Samit Patel, 8 James Tredwell, 9 Jade Dernbach, 10 James Anderson, 11 Steve Finn.

South Africa 1 Graeme Smith, 2 Hashim Amla, 3 JP Duminy, 4 Dean Elgar, 5 AB de Villiers (capt, wk), 6 Faf du Plessis, 7 Wayne Parnell, 8 Robin Peterson, 9 Dale Steyn, 10 Morne Morkel, 11 Lonwabo Tsotsobe.

Patel

Free Hit!!!!

Terrible from Patel with the free hit.

It doesnt matter in this match that he didnt realise that it was a free hit but he should pay much better attention because it may happen again in a match where it will be important...

I think Patel forgot it was a free hit. He just prodded theball to cover and then would have been run out to boot with a direct hit.

eirebilly wrote:

msp83 wrote:Can England find a way to lose this one? I remember they losing an ODI to India in 1999 I think, needed 6 runs of 2 overs with 3 wickets, and they lost by 3 runs, with Ajay Jadeja taking 3 for 3 in an over!.

No i dont, that never happened. Damn people making things up

Well Billy, it did happen, Jadeja indeed took 3 in an over to win a close match for India against England, although the end margin was a bit more than 3!!!!. Don't worry though, the team most likely to go through such a massive collapse is thankfully bowling at the moment!.

It was pretty poor from Patel to be honest. Luckily for him, England have this match won.

Well done England. No way you can lose from here

msp83 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

msp83 wrote:Can England find a way to lose this one? I remember they losing an ODI to India in 1999 I think, needed 6 runs of 2 overs with 3 wickets, and they lost by 3 runs, with Ajay Jadeja taking 3 for 3 in an over!.

No i dont, that never happened. Damn people making things up

Well Billy, it did happen, Jadeja indeed took 3 in an over to win a close match for India against England, although the end margin was a bit more than 3!!!!. Don't worry though, the team most likely to go through such a massive collapse is thankfully bowling at the moment!.

MSP mate, again i was having a joke with you, hense the .

Wont do it again

Boundary from Patel, England are getting closer!.
MoM? Morgan for me.

Got it Billy, look at the exclamations!!!!!.

Parnell has been the outstanding bowler for SA. He may not have taken a wicket but the pressure he has built in his spells has certainly led to one or two.

No wicket until now that is

Billy, is it really happening??? Are England going to do a South Africa? You know they ones lost 4 wickets for nothing when needing 2 to win!!.

Congrats England, back to #1.... for a few days at least

msp, nope

The difference one potent bowlers makes.
The day Eng starts picking bowlers for their bowling, their sucess rrate. Will become much higher.

Its is better to play Bairstow as a batsman in place of Patel, and use Trott, Bopara as 5th bowler, maybe wotha couple of overs from Bell if the pitch is gripping.

Well done lads, but made it tough on yourselves.

England have won and are back to number 1. The bowlers all put up their hand barring Finn to some extend, but the batting still remain an area of concern. Morgan played a superb hand and Trott give him good support.

I must admit I am no big fan of Dernbach, but he bowled well today. He pushed SA back with Amla's wicket and then came back and took out a couple more in the middle overs to give England a lot of control. Although Anderson got 4 wickets, Dernbach has been the standout performer of the day from the point of view of that English bowling unit.
Among the South African batsmen, many got starts but gave it away, none more so than JP Duminy who really has to ask some stern questions to himself.

Ravi Bopara bowled very well today, but his batting form remains a worry. How much more credit is he left with from his solid ODI performances over the last year or so?

England on top of the World. Well done lads.

Dernbach did bowl well today, helped by not overdoing the slow balls. Lets hope he does not return to the profligate bowler of more recent times on sunday.

Fists of Fury wrote:Rubbish idea to pick Dernbach over Woakes. Woakes is not only a better bowler, but he also adds batting depth, whereas our tail looks rather long right now.

I know I'm talking in hindsight but I think that whilst Woakes is deserving of an opportunity Dernbach offers something that we missed at the Rose Bowl, particularly with Broad rested - a wicket-taking bowler, and a specialist death bowler. Bringing Woakes in for Bresnan would give us a more in form bowler but broadly speaking they are quite similar cricketers.

I guess that if the Lord's pitch is typical of the ground then we might see Woakes replace Patel or Tredwell.

Duty281 wrote:I think we can class Bopara as an all-rounder now for ODIs, he's bowled brilliantly today and he's just got a wicket. England on top!

He's certainly done well with the ball this year. Has benefited from giving up that stupid short and quick run up.

CF wrote:IMO Peterson is a better batsman than parnell.

I was thinking that too. South Africans keep going on about how Parnell can bat but I think I'm yet to see it... He even opened at least once in NZ

skyeman wrote:Bopara just not good enough.

But up to the last two games he's been very good in ODIs of late. He's also an important contributor with the ball. If he says he's ready to play then we have to take his word for it.

In fairness, without having seen the incident properly, it sounds like he got a rough one today.

msp83 wrote:Morgan has been a fine ODI batsman, England's best finisher after Neil Fairbrother? He has been very consistent, and over the last 3 years has been England's best ODI player.
But comparisons with Pietersen are a bit pointless, as Morgan's not half the test batsman that Pietersen is.

Almost certainly England's best finisher including Fairbrother. It has been good to see him recover his form this season. Would still like a few Championship runs to make a Test case, but he seems back on track after a quiet 2011 and early 2012.

msp83 wrote:Ravi Bopara bowled very well today, but his batting form remains a worry. How much more credit is he left with from his solid ODI performances over the last year or so?

Plenty I'd say. Its only been two games. Why does it seem that people have such a short memory when it comes to certain players? People were the same with Bell until the SA tour in 09/10 - every time he failed he wasn't good enough, and everytime he did well people didn't really give him the credit or forgot it quickly.

Shelsey, whilst I understand your point(remember I haven't called for his head as yet), we have to think of the context of Jonny Bairstow taking his opportunity in the test matches and making a strong case for himself. I thought Bairstow deserved an extended run in the side after his debut ODI innings last year, that feeling was only strengthened by that test performance. Although the ODI series so far has been just about 3 matches of which one got washed out, Bopara's batting in the county championship after he came back wasn't good at all, and in the one test he played in the summer all that he managed was to score 22 runs.
As I wrote there are 3 players in that lineup looking a touch under the focus, Trott, Bopara and Kieswetter. Trott played a very useful hand today underlaining his value to this England side, and Bopara bowled well despite his poor batting form. Kieswetter hasn't produce aanything big with the bat and his keeping hasn't been great either, although to be fair to him he hasn't done all that bad either. Had England lost today, I am sure the questions would have become all the more significant. I think they should give both Bopara and Kieswetter one more chance at least and see from there on.

On Bairstow.

I think he is a hugely talented player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that two weeks ago 90% of people on this forum were indifferent to him, and much of the other 10% thought he was a no hope.

For me he proved at Lord's what we already knew - that he's an extremely promising youngster, whose earned his place in the England setup and is ready to play Tests if required. At T20 finals day he then showed himself to be in a rich vein of form.

But that doesn't make him a silver bullet. He had previously been in poor form since the WI series and a couple of good knocks shouldn't suddenly make you a must pick in another format (unless you make 300 or something stupid of course), and cause selection for that format to be rethought.

Also, I don't see Bairstow as being the right man to bat higher than number six. He is a finisher, and perhaps a better one than Kieswetter (though I come back to the fact that before two weeks ago people wouldn't have thought that to be as obvious as they do now... Kieswetter also scored a ton for the Lions against Aus A whilst Bairstow got his Test runs, so I don't think that Bairstow > Kieswetter is that simple). Were Bopara not playing in this series Taylor would have been my alternative in that position.

I don't want to come across as anti-Bairstow because I'm not, but he's also not the best thing since sliced bread at this stage as some are suddenly making him out to be!

In Odi's Bops has been fairly good of late and his bowling gives him another side. It is more as a Test player that i have a problem with him.

I think he will be very similarly thought of in the way Hick and Ramprakash {not in their league} were in the sense of being very good players, but ones that just could not handle the pressures of Test cricket for any decent amount of a sustained period.

The reason for this? No one knows, but once it is in their heads, i think they just can not deal with it.

If England were 10/3, how many guys would think it's ok Bops will get us out of this? I would say most would think that England might as well be 10/4 with Bops due in.

His last ten Test innings 22, 0, 44*,7,0,1,23, 27, 18, 1. England can not afford to keep faith in a player in the hope that one day he might do it.

They have kept faith with others when they go through a bad run, but those players have figures to back up their class.

Shelsey93 wrote:On Bairstow.

I think he is a hugely talented player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that two weeks ago 90% of people on this forum were indifferent to him, and much of the other 10% thought he was a no hope.

For me he proved at Lord's what we already knew - that he's an extremely promising youngster, whose earned his place in the England setup and is ready to play Tests if required. At T20 finals day he then showed himself to be in a rich vein of form.

But that doesn't make him a silver bullet. He had previously been in poor form since the WI series and a couple of good knocks shouldn't suddenly make you a must pick in another format (unless you make 300 or something stupid of course), and cause selection for that format to be rethought.

Also, I don't see Bairstow as being the right man to bat higher than number six. He is a finisher, and perhaps a better one than Kieswetter (though I come back to the fact that before two weeks ago people wouldn't have thought that to be as obvious as they do now... Kieswetter also scored a ton for the Lions against Aus A whilst Bairstow got his Test runs, so I don't think that Bairstow > Kieswetter is that simple). Were Bopara not playing in this series Taylor would have been my alternative in that position.

I don't want to come across as anti-Bairstow because I'm not, but he's also not the best thing since sliced bread at this stage as some are suddenly making him out to be!

Well, given the fact that Baitstow is considered good enough to play as a specialist batsman in test cricket would suggest otherwise.

I agree Bairstow is a good finisher, but at the same time he could play a longish innins as well, as is suggested from the last test performance.
Bairstow did well in the limited opportunities he got in the ODI format already, and like Morgan, he's an impact player. Kieswetter isn't the greatest keeper available for England by any stretch of imagination, and the fact is that Yorks have no problem Bairstow keeping wickets in the CC matches, he couldn't be all that bad. I have a feeling England is also thinking about the T20 WC as well, where Kieswetter is expected to play a big role.

The question regarding both Kesiweter and Bairstow should be : Are they good enough as keepers?

Bairstow could be in the side as a pure batsman, but I dont think hes going to kid anyone hes an international keeper any more than Morgan is....and if we were picking our keeper purely on batting then surely he wins?

Davies is the other realistic option as a keeper. I really Bairstopw is competing with the likes of Bopara and Patel for a batsmans slot in ODIs but has a greater chance in T20s where theres no Trott.
Assuming theres no KP I dont see why Bairstrow cant bat at 5, certainly if we think the likes of Bopara are good enough to do it.

Skyeman I agree regarding Bops. England need the extra bowling option in limited overs and hes really done very well with the ball lately, filling the Collingwood role. His real problem is tests where his bowling isnt a wicket taking threat and his batting has been woeful, Id rather see England go with 5 bowlers than have him in the tests side.

Peter,

My issue would be that if your only change to the top six was Bairstow for Bopara you'd have Morgan in at 10-2 (which can happen). Not ideal.

You'd also have Trott as the sixth bowler. Even less ideal.

In that sense Bopara is critical to the ODI side, as none of the alternatives for number four (and I'm thinking Taylor in particular) bowl either...

personally i think its time we put more pressure on swan as a batsman- because i believe he has the skills to be someone we could rely on!

I also add broad to that as well. I think its time both of them stepped up big time.

I would love to try bairstow out as the WK oiption, at odi anyway- Eventually we will need to replace prior at test level and i would like him to get the experience in odi's. Because kieswater just isnt the man for me anyway!

Oh yes Shelsey I agree, I think I was more suggesting if he were to come into the ODI/T20 side it would be those guys hes competing for a place against, not the keeper and not the change bowlers.
He is capable of being more than a finisher, but that doesnt mean he should walk into the side. He aint a keeper. This is why he isnt in the side.

In tests they dont need as much variation bowling, and Bopara is almost useless if he isnt going to score runs with the bat ( something he hasnt done for a long time) ...thyats why I see tests as more realistic for Baisrtow at this point, especially if KP does come back....it becomes almost impossible to see how youd shoehorn him into the limited overs sides.

Fists of Fury wrote:Rubbish idea to pick Dernbach over Woakes.

Excellent performance by Dernbach. (As a Surrey supporter) I remain unconvinced that he will consistently produce for England, but if he is in control of his performance he has abilities that many others lack.)

Shelsey93 wrote:On Bairstow.

I think he is a hugely talented player, but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that two weeks ago 90% of people on this forum were indifferent to him, and much of the other 10% thought he was a no hope.

For me he proved at Lord's what we already knew - that he's an extremely promising youngster, whose earned his place in the England setup and is ready to play Tests if required. At T20 finals day he then showed himself to be in a rich vein of form.

But that doesn't make him a silver bullet. He had previously been in poor form since the WI series and a couple of good knocks shouldn't suddenly make you a must pick in another format (unless you make 300 or something stupid of course), and cause selection for that format to be rethought.

Also, I don't see Bairstow as being the right man to bat higher than number six. He is a finisher, and perhaps a better one than Kieswetter (though I come back to the fact that before two weeks ago people wouldn't have thought that to be as obvious as they do now... Kieswetter also scored a ton for the Lions against Aus A whilst Bairstow got his Test runs, so I don't think that Bairstow > Kieswetter is that simple). Were Bopara not playing in this series Taylor would have been my alternative in that position.

I don't want to come across as anti-Bairstow because I'm not, but he's also not the best thing since sliced bread at this stage as some are suddenly making him out to be!

Shelsey - a near excellent post. Very well presented and certainly representing my own thoughts.

One minor quibble. Your heading should have been not just ''On Bairstow'' but ''On Bairstow and Other Posters''.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote: especially if KP does come back....

Keep dreaming Biscuit.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Rubbish idea to pick Dernbach over Woakes.

Excellent performance by Dernbach. (As a Surrey supporter) I remain unconvinced that he will consistently produce for England, but if he is in control of his performance he has abilities that many others lack.)

As you might expect, very much agree with the Corporal's assessment.

If you'll forgive the amateur psychology, Dernbach often seems to do better when he has the need to prove himself. Too often when bowling for Surrey, he comes across as the ''I am'' with over the top theatrics. There is certainly talent within but, like the Corporal, I'm not convinced we'll see consistency.

KP had better come back or I am not gonna be haapy

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Oh yes Shelsey I agree, I think I was more suggesting if he were to come into the ODI/T20 side it would be those guys hes competing for a place against, not the keeper and not the change bowlers.
He is capable of being more than a finisher, but that doesnt mean he should walk into the side. He aint a keeper. This is why he isnt in the side.

In tests they dont need as much variation bowling, and Bopara is almost useless if he isnt going to score runs with the bat ( something he hasnt done for a long time) ...thyats why I see tests as more realistic for Baisrtow at this point, especially if KP does come back....it becomes almost impossible to see how youd shoehorn him into the limited overs sides.

I'm sorry, but considering he's Yorkshire's first choice WK, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

chrisss wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Oh yes Shelsey I agree, I think I was more suggesting if he were to come into the ODI/T20 side it would be those guys hes competing for a place against, not the keeper and not the change bowlers.
He is capable of being more than a finisher, but that doesnt mean he should walk into the side. He aint a keeper. This is why he isnt in the side.

In tests they dont need as much variation bowling, and Bopara is almost useless if he isnt going to score runs with the bat ( something he hasnt done for a long time) ...thyats why I see tests as more realistic for Baisrtow at this point, especially if KP does come back....it becomes almost impossible to see how youd shoehorn him into the limited overs sides.

I'm sorry, but considering he's Yorkshire's first choice WK, that's a ridiculous thing to say.

I think you've just found another big hole in his argument along with the "In tests they dont need as much variation bowling" nonsense.

guildfordbat wrote:

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Rubbish idea to pick Dernbach over Woakes.

Excellent performance by Dernbach. (As a Surrey supporter) I remain unconvinced that he will consistently produce for England, but if he is in control of his performance he has abilities that many others lack.)

As you might expect, very much agree with the Corporal's assessment.

If you'll forgive the amateur psychology, Dernbach often seems to do better when he has the need to prove himself. Too often when bowling for Surrey, he comes across as the ''I am'' with over the top theatrics. There is certainly talent within but, like the Corporal, I'm not convinced we'll see consistency.

Could'nt agree more. His Odi figures back this up. And i have never seen great death bowling from him either, certainly not in internationals.

But maybe as Shelsey said that both he and Woakes will get a game at Lords. To see if we can get a repeat performance from one, and for the other, for a chance richly deserved.

Congrats to England, didn't see the match but it seems it was an easy win.

tests are king as we both know!!

after getting yourself up so much for winning tests the team usually fails in the one day stuff!!

But i would like to see england contesting a one day WC one day- but then its all about timing your peak isnt it!

Its good to know that england can hold on to one no.1 raking mind!