Wallaby record against Springboks up for grabs and test records

Say what you like about this Wallaby squad at the moment (I don't mind, I can take it... being a Kiwi!) but the Wallabies have four straight wins against the Springboks and have the opportunity to go for an unprecedented 5 straight victories over SA. A great achievement considering this is a side that is by no means at its peak and has been unlucky with injuries.

What is your national team's most noteworthy record? You can't go past England's and SA's 17 consecutive test victories (both against all of the world's top sides). NZ's record of only losing against France, Lions, Barbarians, Australia, Wales, SA and England is impressive but I like the fact that in the past 101 games they have scored at least one try in every game.

Kia – doesn’t NZ also sit at the top of that list with 17 test wins consecutively? Think they did that under the Needle back in the 60’s no? 17 wins is a hell of a run whoever the team is. I can’t help but thinking that we were 10 secs away from drawing level with that run in 2010 until Donald decided he didn’t want to kick for touch in HK. That would’ve been the 17th victory, so adding on the 4 scalps in the NH, we would have come home on 21. It could have possibly gone up to 24 before the loss in Port Elizabeth.....

England’s 17 is the best possible example of sacrificing for the ultimate goal; they fielded a decidedly second string team v France before the WC in 2003. They’d beaten them the week before but France just got over the line. Had England fielded their best team again they would have won easily. Time tells us that they went on to a bigger prize in the end.....

Not sure mintie. My understanding was that it was just those two. I know the Needle went undefeated but not sure how many tests that comprised. In those days 17 tests probably stretched over 5 years!

History showed England made the right choice. It irks me that Australia won the last ever 3N but the more I think about it, the more that victory did to rid us of complacency and tip the Wallabies towards overconfidence.

Defintely 17...thanks to scrum.com:

New Zealand 20 v South Africa 3 18-Sep-65
New Zealand 20 v Lions 3 16-Jul-66
New Zealand 16 v Lions 12 06-Aug-66
New Zealand 19 v Lions 6 27-Aug-66
New Zealand 24 v Lions 11 10-Sep-66
New Zealand 29 v Australia 9 19-Aug-67
New Zealand 23 v England 11 04-Nov-67
New Zealand 13 v Wales 6 11-Nov-67
New Zealand 21 v France 15 25-Nov-67
New Zealand 14 v Scotland 3 02-Dec-67
New Zealand 27 v Australia 11 15-Jun-68
New Zealand 19 v Australia 18 22-Jun-68
New Zealand 12 v France 9 13-Jul-68
New Zealand 9 v France 3 27-Jul-68
New Zealand 19 v France 12 10-Aug-68
New Zealand 19 v Wales 0 31-May-69
New Zealand 33 v Wales 12 14-Jun-69

The loss came against...SA in Pretoria 1970

I want that test win record. That's what I'd like the guys to have as a goal. Do that and the silverware obviously takes care of itself. The last time we were unbeaten in a calendar year was 97 (Poms held us to a draw in the last game after a stunning turnaround). Would be nice to have one of those again.

Nah, our record is Pffffffffffffft.

Yeah everytime I look at the bok lineup...tests played to find the real exprience consists of jdv, habana, f steyn it just doesn't look formidable. Even bismarck was never central to the glory wins of SA so although they're handy, oz look to have it over them again even with the little they have.

Chewed hong kong was to be the 16th, england the 17th and scotland the 18th. If wed won that and the rest went as they did wed have been on 24 before going to SA with the 9 less players. Who knows what henry might have done then.

Could have cost us the cup. Who knows?

We're now on 12 so would need to win up to scotland to get to 18 and could end the year with 21 consecutive.

Its a possibility with the relative injury toll on the three main sides but still a big ask. Hansen will certainly be adding them up even though he didn't head them all.

Well, not wanting to count chickens too early, then the odds on us getting past 17 will look pretty short if we get over SA home and away. Australia’s threat has somewhat diminished of late. I don’t see that they could beat us in Brisbane.

This poses the next big question; if this All Black team claim the world record outright, would it be fair to label the side as the greatest ever? I’m not so sure, I still think the 96 team was the best team we’ll ever see. Neutrals may judge it differently too.

Whereas I still think it was 87-90.

No one got within 20 at world cup and they actually went 24 straight unbeaten...a draw amongst it.

But pro era perhaps. One of henrys sides has gotta be up there...

Looking at our injury list, I can't see SA being enough to stop the all Blacks, I expect our results against them to go pretty much the same way.

I just can't see us doing well without so many top players, irrespective of gameplan or personnel.

I find the answer to SA rugby this year to be too complex to figure out.

Yeah even a change in gameplan at this point might backfire. Just a pity they never took the initiative to best use the tests to date to bring in a couple more players.

Raw grit and typical SA determination is going to have to carry them through to 2013

Biltong that's precisely why I'm optimistic about our chances of sweeping the comp now. Injuries are bad enough, a wretched choice of gameplan is quite another and I feel we are poised to take advantage of this.

However many an out of sorts Boks side has knocked us over in the past so I still think Soweto will be a hell of a game. As will La Plata. Is that stadium indoors? Looked like it or I may have read something. That will mean advantage NZ.

We still need to consider the achievements of the 1924 ABs and 1937 Boks as well-just because we never had the technology to see them isn't a valid reason to discount them. After all TP McLean saw both Cullen and Nepia and said Nepia was the greatest fullback ever.

Well I think the All Blacks must enjoy this ascendancy while it lasts, I have a feeling it will all change by 2013.

My prediction is that you'll win 17 straight to equal the record and then get hammered at Murrayfield to be denied your 18th......that'll definitely happen.....

I'm more worried about 2015 Biltong-you guys can have that year if you want

disney, I find it incredible that we don't have a coach that would move heaven and earth to rectify our record against all comers, especially the all Blacks.

We have the sturcture, the talent and the depth to take New Zealand on, yet our coaches allow our teams to continue to perform way below their potential, I wish I made a career out of rugby, if I was the coach of the springboks, I would leave no stone unturned, SA rugby would be the standard everyone would want to chase, not the also rans for so many years.

It is difficult for me to explain to you my utter frustration to se so much talent go to waste and the state of our record because of coaches fearing to dare.

This conservatism is borne out of fear not to lose, rather than a hunger to dominate.

You guys can be glad I am not a coach.

We know mate. A hamstrung South Africa is not good for rugby. We'll all welcome you guys unleashing your potential even if it does mean more losses for NZ, because it helps the game and whenever a team overtakes us we back ourselves to get back on top-which is why it doesn't usually last very long.

How frustrating must it be for you to go through P Divvy screaming out for another coach and then Meyer does this. You need to visit Shane Warne's Advanced Hair Studios after this. May not help SA win any games but will increase your chances of meeting Liz Hurley

I remember your thread about fear of failure Biltong. But sometimes I think there's a fear of success as well. Success marks you out and makes people more motivated to beat you. I'm surprised there are so few back to back 6N winners and don't know if there's even been back to back Grand Slam winners. I know the home advantage alternates each year but if you're good enough to win one year, you'd still be confident of winning again the following year if your team more or less remains the same.

Now with the World Cup you hear of building for the next one and not wanting to peak in between. Of course not every side can have as lofty expectations as the ABs but too often losses or draws are discarded too easily. How can PDV say last week that the Bok attack was pretty positive and went well? How can the Wallabies say we were given a masterclass? Where's the rage? Where's the hurt?

JDV said exactly the same thing. Attack was good and a lot of positives came out of the game... and the team is in a stronger position because of it.

Clearly its an acceptance of a ower standard. SA has just had itsc worst ever performance against argie and with no disrespect to argie how can a bok skipper utter those words after that?

If mccaw said that after that performance we would literally think he's lost it. That's the difference.

SA are slowly but surely losing respect in this game as a force. Their management of the game at the top is losing credibility. Their ability to analyse the game, initiate real world solutions, respond to trends, and most of all be truly accountable is failing them.

The result is that somehow those selected, whether rightly or wrongly, are managing to gets wins...just...on the back of their own skill levels and determination.

SA critics usually fall into two camps...those who think the plan is in place and its just a matter of time before it all comes right...ie when the injured players come back.

The other camp, the minority, are outraged and the entire process and are fed up.

The return of any players to this setup won't make a huge difference. It'll just make watching them more bearable

Rank Team Mat Start Date End Date
1= New Zealand 17 18 Sep 1965 14 Jun 1969
1= South Africa 17 23 Aug 1997 28 Nov 1998
3= South Africa 15 8 Oct 1994 2 Jul 1996
3= New Zealand 15 13 Aug 2005 26 Aug 2006
3= New Zealand 15 19 Sep 2009 11 Sep 2010
6 England 14 23 Mar 2002 23 Aug 2003
7 South Africa 13 15 Aug 2007 21 Jun 2008
8= New Zealand 12 30 Jul 1988 4 Aug 1990
8= New Zealand 12 9 Sep 2011 25 Aug 2012

Some good teams in there.

You forgot the mighty Lithuania!

I see Deans has finally put AAC back at OC. Beale to 15 and the young Shipperley to spark some magic on the wing. Crazily he has retained Dennis, put Samo starting and Higganbotham on the bench. Don't know why he doesn't put him at 6 instead and quietly take Dennis out to a paddock and shoot him.

Samo had one good game, and is way over the hill in my opinion. Why is he even considering him? Get him on the back foot and he’s toast. Bit like Sione Lauaki really isn’t he?

I think his nickname is Frogger. To go forwards he needs to go sideways just as much.

Lauaki is a good comparison. Deans is looking for impact but he's looking for it in the wrong places. Palu is a big loss and Higganbotham isn't working at 8. Both coaches are desperate to win but don't have their best squad by a long distance. You'd think Deans has an edge in terms of experience of not having his full arsenal. That said, this could be a road crash of a game.

Frogger....lol reminds me of that old video game, getting the frog over the motorway before he gets splatted (has anyone seen the movie Bowfinger, with a similar scene?)

I like the balance of having AAC at centre, where he should have been all along. His presence sucks in the defence, freeing up space on the outside. When you have a back three of (say) Beiber, Digby and Kurtley that is a hell of a potent strike force to create space for. Guys like Pat McCabe, Anthony Faingaa, Rob Horne and Berrick Barnes do not bring fear to anyone on attack....nor do they really in defence either. They also have as much creative talent as a lampshade

Yes saw that movie. They also did a similar scene with George Costanza in Seinfeld with Frogger. Expect more lateral movement than taking a dump in a hurricane.

AAC should've been there all along indeed. It seems Deans is a NZRFU plant to extend NZ's hold over Australia. I wonder what Giteau is making of all this from Toulon. It must rile him to think what trash has been playing at inside centre. But then part of him must be giving the big finger at Deans saying I know I was off form but look at the rabble you have now!

Another win at home sees this side draw level with the 1999-2003 English sides run at home.

Team Mat Start Date End Date
New Zealand 30 21 Jun 2003 to 5 Jul 2008
England 22 15 Oct 1999 to 6 Sep 2003
New Zealand 21* 19 Sep 2009 to Present
New Zealand 16 22 May 1987 to 4 Aug 1990
New Zealand 15 22 Apr 1995 to 27 Jun 1998

That's a fairly dominant list!

blackcanelion wrote:Another win at home sees this side draw level with the 1999-2003 English sides run at home.

Team Mat Start Date End Date
New Zealand 30 21 Jun 2003 to 5 Jul 2008
England 22 15 Oct 1999 to 6 Sep 2003
New Zealand 21* 19 Sep 2009 to Present
New Zealand 16 22 May 1987 to 4 Aug 1990
New Zealand 15 22 Apr 1995 to 27 Jun 1998

I assume that includes RWC matches?

It's all about where you set the limit....... There's a whole bunch of nations just below this.

Here's the Aussie run in context. Best winning runs against SA.

Rank Team Mat Start Date End Date
1 New Zealand 8 21 Jul 2001 to 24 Jul 2004
2 England 7 24 Jun 2000 to 18 Nov 2006
3 Britain 6 30 Jul 1891 to 29 Aug 1896
4= New Zealand 4 12 Sep 1981 to 23 Jul 1994
4= New Zealand 4 20 Jul 1996 to 24 Aug 1996
4=Australia 4 30 Oct 1999 to 26 Aug 2000
4=New Zealand 4 10 Jul 2010 to 30 Jul 2011
4=Australia 4* 4 Sep 2010 - Present

Pretty good in that context. especially when you consider the 1st two British tours were introducing the game and didn't really play Afrikaners, They struggled on returning in 1992-93 and SA rugby was in melt down between the 1999 and 2003 world cups.

Biltong wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:Another win at home sees this side draw level with the 1999-2003 English sides run at home.

Team Mat Start Date End Date
New Zealand 30 21 Jun 2003 to 5 Jul 2008
England 22 15 Oct 1999 to 6 Sep 2003
New Zealand 21* 19 Sep 2009 to Present
New Zealand 16 22 May 1987 to 4 Aug 1990
New Zealand 15 22 Apr 1995 to 27 Jun 1998

I assume that includes RWC matches?

Yes, straight from scrum.com's record page. May have deleted Lithuania or any other minnow on there.

Wonder what the best winning run against us is? I would say 4-5? 1949 we lost 4-0 didn’t we against SA?

Yes. 6. The Boks won the last 2 matches in NZ in 37 (the best side to leave NZ) and took the 49 series 4-0.

http://stats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_consecutive_wins.html?id=8;type=opposition

Ooooh...now there’s a subject for debate!!

Can I lob these teams into the mix:

1971 Lions
1986 Wallabies
1994 Frogs

Blackcanelion can you do SA's best runs against the top teams please?

Lithuania's record is 19. They've never been at a World Cup. The points record for one player in a game is 50-some bloke scored 10 tries for Hong Kong vs Singapore a few years back. I'd fancy my Hutt Old Boys side to take Singapore in that case.

NZ lost two tests on the same day in 49-to SA and Aussie. Epic fail.

Regarding win streaks I think the 94 French losses were bookended by a win in 1990 and a loss in late 95 before Jonah destroyed them in the 2nd test. 86 was 2-1 as was 71-dunno about 37. So it's gotta be the Boks around 49 doesn't it?

Sorry Disney, my reference to those teams was that they could be considered the best team to leave NZ, it wasn’t so much about the streak...

Biltong wrote:Blackcanelion can you do SA's best runs against the top teams please?

Most consecutive wins vs 1 opponent

tats.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/records/team/most_consecutive_wins_opponent.html?id=5;type=team

Mat Opposition Start Date End Date
14 v Argentina 6 Nov 1993 to 18 Aug 2012
13* v Wales 26 Nov 2000 to 11 Sep 2011
10* v Italy 12 Nov 1995 to 26 Jun 2010
9 v England 25 Nov 2006 to 16 Jun 2012
8 v Ireland 30 May 1981 to 19 Jun 2004
7 v Australia 19 Sep 1953 to 13 Jul 1963
7 v Australia 2 Aug 1969 to 7 Aug 1971
7 v Scotland 7 Jun 2003 to 15 Nov 2008
7* v Samoa 13 Apr 1995 to 30 Sep 2011
6 v New Zealand 4 Sep 1937 to 17 Sep 1949
6 v Ireland 24 Nov 1906 to 13 May 1961
6 v Wales 1 Dec 1906 to 23 May 1964
6 v France 23 Nov 1974 to 17 Oct 1992

The website has a lot of options on the records page if you can be bothered having a play around.

Obviously the runs would have been a lot longer if more games had been played in the era of bok dominance.

chewed_mintie wrote:Sorry Disney, my reference to those teams was that they could be considered the best team to leave NZ, it wasn’t so much about the streak...

You could be right. However, it's a famous quote referring to the 37 boks.

Ah see what you were getting at now. Yeah I remember that quote. Got under the skin of quite a few Kiwis!

Would say 37 for sure then.