England Team After round 1

My England team just picking on the weekends form (I haven't seen the Exeter-Sale game so please feel free to pick me up on any stand outs from that one).

15. Mike Brown- Solid in all aspects throughout the game on Sat and was a key character in Quins come back, bagged two tries as well to boot.
14. Chris Ashton- Despite a yellow card Ashton showed up well in his first game for Saracens, even getting to crack out the splash as he finished off two tries.
13. Johnathan Joseph- One of the few LI players to come out of the match on Sat with any credit, he was a danger ball in hand with his quick stepping feet.
12. Jordan Turner-Hall- Tacked all game long against Wasps and gave Quins plenty of direction, credited as being key to settling the players in the backs too.
11. Christian Wade- Looked deadly in little to no space against Harlequins, the comparisons to billy wizz will start soon so let me be the first. The new Jason Robinson.
10. Toby Flood- Played a calm and controlled game against LW but still floated some lovely passes out to his wide men. Looks comfortably back on form after the shakes of last season, kicked fairly well too with a change to his style.
9. Richard Wigglesworth- Tried to install and attacking game in to the sometimes cumbersome Saracens back line, generally it worked too.
8. Thomas Waldrom- Carried well and looked dangerous on the counter against LW, one more player with two tries to his name this weekend.
7. Chris Robshaw- Lead Harlequins back from the brink of defeat with plenty of composure, made the right decisions time and again and never stopped carrying and tackling.
6. James Haskell- Tackled anything that moved with real ferocity and was a constant menace on the floor. Made Care's life a misery till he was subbed off.
5. Mauritz Botha- The big hitting Saracems lock got properly stuck in to LI, but also really impressed with his carrying and offloading, are we seeing a new side to the England lock?
4. Geoff Parling- Orchestrated a precise Tigers line out as expected but showed up very well around the park, always gets his legs driving when tackled and capped off a good try too.
3. Dan Cole- Is becoming more and more the standout player for Leicester. Comfortably ahead of Castro now Cole's work on the deck is close to as good as his impressive skill in the scrums.
2. Rob Buchanan- Carried well all over the park and helped lift the pace of the game for Quins with his offloading. Perfect line out throwing too.
1. Joe Marler- A beast in the scrums and another forward more then comfy in the backs, his work in both areas helped drag Quins back in to the game and he lasted the full 80 unlike most other props on the weekend.

So there we go. My form team of the weekend only has three uncapped players in it ( Wade, Waldrom and Buchanan) and has 10 current England EPS players in there (pretty good selections by Lancaster then maybe?) With two ex England players in Wigglesworth and Jordan Turner-Hall.

Might have Barritt over JTH

Yea I was thinking about both of them but in the face of adversity JTH did just as much while Barritt to be honest could have done more from his arm chair ride.

I quite like that backrow especially Robshaw and Haskall. Reminds me of how the Boks play their flankers and after his stint in SuperRugby Hask seems to have something of the Chalke Burger about his style of play.

We must have seen a different LI/Sarries game, as I thought Joseph was terrible. I thought he looked heavy, leaden footed and even unfit. His passing was poor and (as with many LI players) went missing in defence too often.

Also Waldrom was capped in the summer and 11 players are in the EPS (if my adding up is correct)

http://www.rfu.com/SquadsAndPlayers/EnglandElite

I'd swap out Care for Wigglesworth. He gets more slippery by the day, not only with fast service but apprently having eyes everywherre and being a great judge of when to quickly tap and catch the opposition napping.

On first glance i'd agree with you about Brown, but I haven't seen how Foden's looking this season yet.

I'd like to see Manu in at 12 as long as he can get service to JJ as opposed to being a battering ram.

Out of interest, did anyone see the Gloucester gmae? How did Ben Morgan get on?

Thought Haskell and Robshaw were outsanding, and to be honest, the prospect of both of them in the same backrow is tantalising.

I'd swap Botha for Launchburry to be honest, thought he had an excellent game and was prominent in the loose.

LT, I really thought Joseph looked good ball in hand, still jinking well. But maybe that's compared to the rest of LI!

Ah I thought Waldrom may have been...

Alastair I actually thought that quick tap aside Care had a pretty quiet game by his standards, maybe I'm judging him too harshly but I know he can do a lot better.

Bluestone, I'd still take Botha over Launchberry. I really didn't see the hype on Saturday over him and if you watch Botha he probably had one of his best games against LI.

The idea of Robshaw and Hask is pretty nice... We should definitely have that physicality.

yappysnap wrote:LT, I really thought Joseph looked good ball in hand, still jinking well. But maybe that's compared to the rest of LI!

Ah I thought Waldrom may have been...

Alastair I actually thought that quick tap aside Care had a pretty quiet game by his standards, maybe I'm judging him too harshly but I know he can do a lot better.

Bluestone, I'd still take Botha over Launchberry. I really didn't see the hype on Saturday over him and if you watch Botha he probably had one of his best games against LI.

The idea of Robshaw and Hask is pretty nice... We should definitely have that physicality.

I think it was his all-round play. He was good under the high ball on the restarts, tackled hard, jumped on loose ball, was good in the lineout, and carried really really well. It wasn't necessarily eye-catching stuff, but he plays like a guy beyond his years, and he's only going to get better. I much prefer him at lock over flanker, and hope that with the arrival of Haskell now, he'll be a permanent feature at 4 or 5.

Just imagine if one of Vunipola or Morgan or Fearns gets properly fit- Haskell+ Robshaw+V/M/F is a brutal SA esque backrow. Then for more mobile backrows, chuck in Wood, Croft, boom, instant easily changeable gameplan.

I really want to see a fully fit Fearns! Hopefully, a few more games into this season and he'll be properly match fit. Against the barbarians over the summer he had phases where he was brutal, but just seemed to tire.

That's the way we want to be heading Chequered no doubt, a good core of 6 or 7 experienced backrow players who can interchange when needed.

What did you make of Guest? He certainly has the fitness and ball skills for Test level... do you think his size would be an issue? I was really impressed by his performance off the bench, maybe earned himself a start this week.

yappysnap wrote:That's the way we want to be heading Chequered no doubt, a good core of 6 or 7 experienced backrow players who can interchange when needed.

What did you make of Guest? He certainly has the fitness and ball skills for Test level... do you think his size would be an issue? I was really impressed by his performance off the bench, maybe earned himself a start this week.

I like Guest though I'd have preferred to keep young York!

Guest is quick and athletic and thus adds a different dimension to our boshier options at 8. And you need the potential for variety in the back row because the same method of play is not going to be as effective against Australia as it is against South Africa

Tom Johnson hasn't let England down when he's played.
Anyone know how he got on against Sale?

He scored BigTrev, following on from good support play showing his speed. That's all I know really, sorry! Though, given the score line I think it's safe to assume Exeter's forwards dominated and provided some good qucik ball!

Scored a try I think. He didnt let England down, true but I do feel other players can do all he can do but better. However, ATM the shirt is his until someone plays well enough to take it off him. And many would have (and some,IMO mistakenly and perhaps even ignorantly/foolishly, still do) applied the sane remark to Robshaw as I have to Johnson so with so little evidence either way my comment is just an opinion I am happy to have proven wrong

Thanks fellas - good to Haskell back, he will be spitting feathers being left out the EPS.

Gatland knows Haskell from his Wasps days, right?

Hard to argue with a lot of these choices.

But when it comes to Foden-Brown for the 15 jersey, I prefer Foden. More controlled and better defensively (Foden's team didn't let a potentially better opposition put 40 points on them).

For number 8 hopefully Morgan gets his blubber moving for the full 80. That's the ideal case and could be a game changer. Then we have to sort out Robshaw, Haskell, and hopefully a fit Tom Wood. All are very good.

I have never been a Dan Cole fan, but he does keep getting better and better. I may have to start liking this bloke.

Not comfortable with our centres (shock). Time will have to tell.

Christian Wade had exactly the openning game we all want him to have. Forget the silly pass to Varndell. This kid has the goods. In interviews he comes off very well. Let's hope he continues to develop.................

ChequeredJersey wrote:Gatland knows Haskell from his Wasps days, right?

Yes. Regarding the Lions. Potentially there could be a well represented ex Wasps (& current) if Howley,Edwards & potentially Dai Young get the nod.

The back row will be extremely competitive though & there will be some serious quality left behind for sure.

doctor_grey wrote:Hard to argue with a lot of these choices.

But when it comes to Foden-Brown for the 15 jersey, I prefer Foden. More controlled and better defensively (Foden's team didn't let a potentially better opposition put 40 points on them).

For number 8 hopefully Morgan gets his blubber moving for the full 80. That's the ideal case and could be a game changer. Then we have to sort out Robshaw, Haskell, and hopefully a fit Tom Wood. All are very good.

I have never been a Dan Cole fan, but he does keep getting better and better. I may have to start liking this bloke.

Not comfortable with our centres (shock). Time will have to tell.

Christian Wade had exactly the openning game we all want him to have. Forget the silly pass to Varndell. This kid has the goods. In interviews he comes off very well. Let's hope he continues to develop.................

I'd say Foden and Brown are almost as good as each other, Fodens extra pace being countered by Browns bigger boot. I would like to see Foden and Brown alternated a bit more by the Eng management to foster that competetive spirit.

Centres is still an issue, Tuilagi was good but nothing special, Barrit was steady but again nothing special and Hopper/Lowe imploded critically.

Looking forward to seeing Wood get a good run of games under his belt. He is class but seems massively unlucky at the moment!!

Cole is probably the best player that England have currently; if only he could kick, sprint and catch the high balls as well we'd be set.

Haskell could well sneak on to the Lions, after all Gats took Powell last time!

Difficult to say really...some big scorlines which would suggest those packs etc did very well...

Ie Tom Johnson played in a pack that must have dominated.

Chris Robshaw & Mike Browns side despite winning conceded 40 points.

Leicester were solid but unspectacular.

Haskell Wade and Launchburys team give up the biggest comeback around...to lose.....

But having read a few reports...id say...

1 Marler
2 Hartley / Youngs.
3 Cole
4 Launchbury / Botha
5 Parling
6 Haskell / Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Waldrom

9 ?
10 Flood
11 Wade
12 ?
13 ?
14 Ashton
15 Foden

No, no, you've got it all wrong, you don't want any of those crumby Chiefs' players in the England set-up - Sale were the much better team, just had a bad day at the office, the ref was totally biased against Sale, etc. - so pls leave all Chiefs at Sandy Park. Thanx

yappysnap wrote:
12. Jordan Turner-Hall- Tacked all game long against Wasps

10. Toby Flood- Played a calm and controlled game against LW but still floated some lovely passes out to his wide men. Looks comfortably back on form after the shakes of last season, kicked fairly well too with a change to his style.

4. Geoff Parling- Orchestrated a precise Tigers line out as expected

Not necessarily arguing against their selection, but not sure I agree with some of the above points.

JTH is down as making 7 tackles but missing 3.

Flood had a couple of nice touches but felt it took him a fair while to settle into the game, which shouldn't have been the case against LW's level of opposition, and his out of hand kicking was woeful throughout.

I thought the Tigers lineout looked sketchy on more than a few occasions (not just with the new lock) against a team that shouldn't have been causing them any problems there. The first LW try was a direct result of Tigers mucking up a lineout on their own 22.

It will be interesting to see where Tom Johnson is rated come the Ai's...

Englands got some serious options there:
Haskell
Croft - Doubtful for the Ai's
Johnson
Wood
Fearns

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No, no, you've got it all wrong, you don't want any of those crumby Chiefs' players in the England set-up - Sale were the much better team, just had a bad day at the office, the ref was totally biased against Sale, etc. - so pls leave all Chiefs at Sandy Park. Thanx

but Ali Muldowney had a stormer, and he's worth a shout just to keep him away from those pesky Scots - just one cap, mind, then leave him at Sandy Park.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No, no, you've got it all wrong, you don't want any of those crumby Chiefs' players in the England set-up - Sale were the much better team, just had a bad day at the office, the ref was totally biased against Sale, etc. - so pls leave all Chiefs at Sandy Park. Thanx

You cad you!

timhen wrote:

yappysnap wrote:
12. Jordan Turner-Hall- Tacked all game long against Wasps

10. Toby Flood- Played a calm and controlled game against LW but still floated some lovely passes out to his wide men. Looks comfortably back on form after the shakes of last season, kicked fairly well too with a change to his style.

4. Geoff Parling- Orchestrated a precise Tigers line out as expected

Not necessarily arguing against their selection, but not sure I agree with some of the above points.

JTH is down as making 7 tackles but missing 3.

Flood had a couple of nice touches but felt it took him a fair while to settle into the game, which shouldn't have been the case against LW's level of opposition, and his out of hand kicking was woeful throughout.

I thought the Tigers lineout looked sketchy on more than a few occasions (not just with the new lock) against a team that shouldn't have been causing them any problems there. The first LW try was a direct result of Tigers mucking up a lineout on their own 22.

Not a problem if you do disagree Tim.

JTH may have missed some tackles but to me also made some very important ones.

Flood was the best of a pretty poor bunch at fly half.

And to me Parling showed up very well and most of Tigers lineout issues were with Welshes very keen disruption methods.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:No, no, you've got it all wrong, you don't want any of those crumby Chiefs' players in the England set-up - Sale were the much better team, just had a bad day at the office, the ref was totally biased against Sale, etc. - so pls leave all Chiefs at Sandy Park. Thanx

but Ali Muldowney had a stormer, and he's worth a shout just to keep him away from those pesky Scots - just one cap, mind, then leave him at Sandy Park.

Be fair, Dub, MacMuldowney is a well-known Scots name and nobody would understand young Aly's gutteral Borders accent!

Anyone got any idea how Morgan got on for Gloucester??

Nice round out Yappy, for what it's worth I agree that Care can do a lot better than he did on Saturday. Particularly since K Dickson came on and admirably got the back line moving... however he didn't have Haskell or Masi in his face... so who knows.

Performance wise, after W1, I'd have the following :

1. Marler - gets better and better, would have risen to the confrontation he had a year ago, wiser head these days.
2. Hartley - not convinced by Young yet, his lineout is too dodgy. I certainly hope Quins pressure it when we play them. Hartley had a solid game for Saints.
3. Cole - very sound performance against Welsh, even turned over loose ball as well as usual high standard in set piece.
4. Botha - as said before, very good game on the weekend devoid of his usual handling errors
5. Parling - bossed it this weekend.
6. Haskell - damn I can't stand him, but he was a thorn in Quins side all game and no surprise the wheels began to come off with his sub.
7. Robshaw - shades it despite not having a great game, handling errors and hospital passes. Pulled it round in the last 20.
8. Waldrom - another player I love to hate, can't argue with his bullocking runs against Welsh, and no reoccurences of his brain dead behaviour in the final.
9. Wigglesworth - after the usual turgid Sarries start got the forwards and backs moving with purpose.
10. Flood - best on show, but still to convince me he's the No10 for when a pack is not dominant.
11. Wade - awesome, will be even better when he learns how Billy Whizz used to defend.
12. Allen - executed well for Tigers again, has a massive skillset.
13. Joseph - just. Average game for Irish, but as one of Irish's better performers pinches it from Tuilagi.
14. Ashton - the usual mix of brilliance and stupidity. Great nous and hands to set one of the Sarries tries up.
15. Brown - shades it over Foden for me, he's just as quick these days after sprint training, even better, he's clinical and his kicking is normally top notch.

Wyddy

Nice comparison there Wyddy.

It's a bit of a concern that we're having to pick the best from pretty poor bunches at 10, 12 and 13 though. Hopefully as teams settle this'll improve.

I thought Youngs' lineout throwing at the weekend was pretty decent to be honest. He also showed up in the loose well too. Lindsay of Wasps also had a fine game at lineout time. If he could become consistent, he'd be an excellent player- he's got the size and build on Bismarck (not saying he's anything as good as him, but here's potential).

I like the backrow Wyddy, lots of grunt and carrying power.

I have to say...im a big fan of Lindsay and really hope they work on his lineout. Hes a big boy with pace, and a big scrummager...

To be honest im looking closely at Lindsay v George v Youngs performances this season...

Hartley is in the shirt but he needs competition to raise his game again. He has lost all ball carrying ability that he had when he came to prominence...and just doesnt look tough like i thought he was going to be.

Englands front row has gone very well...but im not sure how much of that is down to Hartley or that Corb and Cole have been excellent.

For the moment he's a solid option i would say...

Yeh, Hartley's really lost his physicality recently in the England shirt especially. His carries are not nearly as effective as they once were.

I like Lindsay too, but I also really really like Youngs. He's an aggressive little g%t when he gets going, and throws himself into contact. Not to mention, he's rapid too!

Hopefully, come the end of the season, hooker will be a position of real headache

Agreed mate...i think Lindsay and Youngs will be first choice this season for their clubs....Jaime George needs games...and im not sure he'll get them at Sarries...so myafind himself falling behind.

You might be right about George GF, he could fall behind. Only saving grace is the he's younger than the other two, so can afford one or two more seasons of understudy. At least at somewhere like Sarries, he's got the likes of Brits and Smit to learn from- two really different styles of hooker play. Hopefully he can take both on board and become a super hybrid of the two!

Without doubt if you want to learn off two guys in your position they dont really come much better....but i still maintain...learning is second to actually playing.

Definitely. At the end of the day, sport is to be played, not studied.

yappysnap wrote:LT, I really thought Joseph looked good ball in hand, still jinking well. But maybe that's compared to the rest of LI!

Ah I thought Waldrom may have been...

Alastair I actually thought that quick tap aside Care had a pretty quiet game by his standards, maybe I'm judging him too harshly but I know he can do a lot better.
Bluestone, I'd still take Botha over Launchberry. I really didn't see the hype on Saturday over him and if you watch Botha he probably had one of his best games against LI.

The idea of Robshaw and Hask is pretty nice... We should definitely have that physicality.

Yeah, agreed. Arguabley though that arguement could be applied to all our players by the evidence of the first 50 minutes - although the last 30 did wipe the smirk off my old mans face and he owed me a beer from the Sin Bin.

Yea I suppose it is harsh to judge him when the whole team were still on the bus. Watching the game now and I still can't believe that comeback!

Geordie and Blue do you think Youngs is physical enough for Int level yet? He looks a bit small to me still. And has he sorted his throwing out?

Full name Thomas Nicholas Youngs
Date of birth 28 January 1987 (age 25)
Place of birth Norwich, England
Height 1.75 m (5 ft 9 in)
Weight 102 kg (16 st 1 lb)

Full name Dylan Michael Hartley
Date of birth March 24, 1986 (age 26)
Place of birth Rotorua, New Zealand
Height 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in)
Weight 110 kg (17 st 5 lb)

Looking at that i'm stunned Youngs is 25! I thought he was about 21, and he is 8 kg lighter then Hartley who seems a bit underpowered (have to say i'm not sure about this though as we seem to miss a lot without him).

By comparison Joe Gray who many slate as being too small and underpowered for Internationals is exactly the same weight as Youngs and a couple of inches taller.

Full name Joseph Gray
Date of birth 5 August 1988 (age 24)
Place of birth Nottingham, England
Height 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in)
Weight 102 kg (16 st 1 lb) [1]

yappysnap wrote:Full name Thomas Nicholas Youngs
Date of birth 28 January 1987 (age 25)
Place of birth Norwich, England
Height 1.75 m (5 ft 9 in)
Weight 102 kg (16 st 1 lb)

Full name Dylan Michael Hartley
Date of birth March 24, 1986 (age 26)
Place of birth Rotorua, New Zealand
Height 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in)
Weight 110 kg (17 st 5 lb)

Looking at that i'm stunned Youngs is 25! I thought he was about 21, and he is 8 kg lighter then Hartley who seems a bit underpowered (have to say i'm not sure about this though as we seem to miss a lot without him).

By comparison Joe Gray who many slate as being too small and underpowered for Internationals is exactly the same weight as Youngs and a couple of inches taller.

Full name Joseph Gray
Date of birth 5 August 1988 (age 24)
Place of birth Nottingham, England
Height 1.85 m (6 ft 1 in)
Weight 102 kg (16 st 1 lb) [1]

Yes, but Youngs is shorter, and thus more dense. He's got a heck of a lot of bulk, inside a comparatively short frame, on top of some serious wheels. He very much reminds me of a proper 'old-school' hooker- short and squat, with serious aggression.

Grey's a very good player, but given his height, could do with filling out a little bit more in my opinion. Hartley's not the biggest hooker, but given him and Grey are the same height, but there's 8kg difference, it sort of shows you how comparatively light Grey is. He does so much so well, but a little more weight might improve his carrying a little.

At the end of the day however, it all comes down the the rest of the pack and what sort of game plan the coach is trying to play. If you want a skillful, lighter-weight, technically sound hooker, Gray is your man. If you're after a bosher, Youngs is your man.

I can see the arguments against Grey, but I'm a big fan. He does the basics absolutely brilliantly. He virtually always hits his man in the line out and has been part of an increasingly strong scrummaging front row at Quins. He's quicker rather that abrasive and seems more of a ball playing hooker than an out and out carrier. Although his carrying is underrated IMO.

I think people are looking at Harltey's height and weight and his apparent underpowered carrying (a point which I think gets exaggerated) and apply it to other players. Just because a heavier player appear to be less effective in the carry, doesn't mean a lighter one will be even worse. There are so many variables like strength, speed, body angle and technique.

Saying that, I've wondered if Lindsay could turn into a find. He's an absolute beast in the carry. From the look of it on Saturday, he has worked hard on his throwing too. He looked pretty competent to my untrained eye and I don't remember to many lineouts going awry.

I'd like to see more from Youngs before he is a nailed on England regular, but I think he is going to be there or there abouts over the next few years.

Dylan Hartley, Joe Gray, Tom Youngs, Tom Lindsay and (perhaps) Jamie George... Could be happy days!

Cumbrian wrote:I can see the arguments against Grey, but I'm a big fan. He does the basics absolutely brilliantly. He virtually always hits his man in the line out and has been part of an increasingly strong scrummaging front row at Quins. He's quicker rather that abrasive and seems more of a ball playing hooker than an out and out carrier. Although his carrying is underrated IMO.

I think people are looking at Harltey's height and weight and his apparent underpowered carrying (a point which I think gets exaggerated) and apply it to other players. Just because a heavier player appear to be less effective in the carry, doesn't mean a lighter one will be even worse. There are so many variables like strength, speed, body angle and technique.

Saying that, I've wondered if Lindsay could turn into a find. He's an absolute beast in the carry. From the look of it on Saturday, he has worked hard on his throwing too. He looked pretty competent to my untrained eye and I don't remember to many lineouts going awry.

I'd like to see more from Youngs before he is a nailed on England regular, but I think he is going to be there or there abouts over the next few years.

Dylan Hartley, Joe Gray, Tom Youngs, Tom Lindsay and (perhaps) Jamie George... Could be happy days!

That's what I was trying to get at, but you put it a lot more succinctly Cumbrian!

I agree with you about Lindsay. He's a massive lad, and his throwing last weekend was actually decent. I think he's going to have to show staggering consistency in his throwing over the next few weeks, since that's his real weakness. Real threat in loose play though.

England have got a lot of stars on the way up at hooker, it's just at current, none of them are quite at the level to compete with Hartley. Hopefully when he's got some smoke up his a$$, he#ll begin to perform like we all know he can.

One critical point at hooker though is i still want to see them scrummage like a demented Rhino...

They can run all they want but if they cant do that...and cant tear things up at the break down...then they're no good to me.

I think this is an area that Hartley is rated very highly as...especially the break down...where we have imporved rapidly...maybe the tactics are to reduce Hartleys carrying and up his work rate close in where his skills are...

Personally i think Lindsay is the one...Englands Bismark...

GeordieFalcon wrote:One critical point at hooker though is i still want to see them scrummage like a demented Rhino...

They can run all they want but if they cant do that...and cant tear things up at the break down...then they're no good to me.

I think this is an area that Hartley is rated very highly as...especially the break down...where we have imporved rapidly...maybe the tactics are to reduce Hartleys carrying and up his work rate close in where his skills are...

Personally i think Lindsay is the one...Englands Bismark...

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. He does get through a heck of a lot in terms of tackling and support tackling and I think the Eng coaching team want the backrow and loosehead to be the main carriers in the pack as it's usually Cole and Dylan who are the trouble makers.

Yeah ive noticed too that they have been very prominent in those areas...Corbs aswell has got through his work there...

I think this is another reason why we need a big monster of a second row...to get through some ball carrying....

yappysnap wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:One critical point at hooker though is i still want to see them scrummage like a demented Rhino...

They can run all they want but if they cant do that...and cant tear things up at the break down...then they're no good to me.

I think this is an area that Hartley is rated very highly as...especially the break down...where we have imporved rapidly...maybe the tactics are to reduce Hartleys carrying and up his work rate close in where his skills are...

Personally i think Lindsay is the one...Englands Bismark...

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. He does get through a heck of a lot in terms of tackling and support tackling and I think the Eng coaching team want the backrow and loosehead to be the main carriers in the pack as it's usually Cole and Dylan who are the trouble makers.

Yea interesting points guys. Perhaps Hartley is being encouraged down that road; it's fine with me but they don't seem to have done much about redressing the balance of carriers in the pack. Picking Dowson at 8 in the 6N was a prime example for me. Corbs carries pretty well, but surely you'd want Sheridan in there if the LH carrier is the plan?!

If you look at Hartley's carrying technically it has regressed. He tends to run into contact from a side angle, slow and then drop his shoulder in. Its this slowing of his pace into contact, combined with his body angle which has drastically reduced his effectiveness on the carry.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah ive noticed too that they have been very prominent in those areas...Corbs aswell has got through his work there...

I think this is another reason why we need a big monster of a second row...to get through some ball carrying....

.

Exactly Geordie, we all pray that one day that realisation will dawn. We know we've got some serious talent developing in the back row and front row, but locks we seem to be short of at the moment and that's really affecting our balance. I'd be content with seeing 4. Deacon 5. Lawes/Parling in there, but we aren't there at present and I don't think we will be.

We know that Garvey is on the cards on these boards, but I think is injured at present. I was very impressed with Launchburry on the weekend, played like a young Simon Shaw to my mind, just without the penalties. Could do a bit more on the clear out and scragging the 9 but he does the fundamentals to an excellent standard for such a young chap. Carried pretty well too.