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England Team After round 1

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alcoombe
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Post by yappysnap Tue 04 Sep 2012, 12:43 pm

First topic message reminder :

My England team just picking on the weekends form (I haven't seen the Exeter-Sale game so please feel free to pick me up on any stand outs from that one).

15. Mike Brown- Solid in all aspects throughout the game on Sat and was a key character in Quins come back, bagged two tries as well to boot.
14. Chris Ashton- Despite a yellow card Ashton showed up well in his first game for Saracens, even getting to crack out the splash as he finished off two tries.
13. Johnathan Joseph- One of the few LI players to come out of the match on Sat with any credit, he was a danger ball in hand with his quick stepping feet.
12. Jordan Turner-Hall- Tacked all game long against Wasps and gave Quins plenty of direction, credited as being key to settling the players in the backs too.
11. Christian Wade- Looked deadly in little to no space against Harlequins, the comparisons to billy wizz will start soon so let me be the first. The new Jason Robinson.
10. Toby Flood- Played a calm and controlled game against LW but still floated some lovely passes out to his wide men. Looks comfortably back on form after the shakes of last season, kicked fairly well too with a change to his style.
9. Richard Wigglesworth- Tried to install and attacking game in to the sometimes cumbersome Saracens back line, generally it worked too.
8. Thomas Waldrom- Carried well and looked dangerous on the counter against LW, one more player with two tries to his name this weekend.
7. Chris Robshaw- Lead Harlequins back from the brink of defeat with plenty of composure, made the right decisions time and again and never stopped carrying and tackling.
6. James Haskell- Tackled anything that moved with real ferocity and was a constant menace on the floor. Made Care's life a misery till he was subbed off.
5. Mauritz Botha- The big hitting Saracems lock got properly stuck in to LI, but also really impressed with his carrying and offloading, are we seeing a new side to the England lock?
4. Geoff Parling- Orchestrated a precise Tigers line out as expected but showed up very well around the park, always gets his legs driving when tackled and capped off a good try too.
3. Dan Cole- Is becoming more and more the standout player for Leicester. Comfortably ahead of Castro now Cole's work on the deck is close to as good as his impressive skill in the scrums.
2. Rob Buchanan- Carried well all over the park and helped lift the pace of the game for Quins with his offloading. Perfect line out throwing too.
1. Joe Marler- A beast in the scrums and another forward more then comfy in the backs, his work in both areas helped drag Quins back in to the game and he lasted the full 80 unlike most other props on the weekend.

So there we go. My form team of the weekend only has three uncapped players in it ( Wade, Waldrom and Buchanan) and has 10 current England EPS players in there (pretty good selections by Lancaster then maybe?) With two ex England players in Wigglesworth and Jordan Turner-Hall.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:00 pm

I think Launchbury is the future, personally. Should get some time at lock this season, think they'll rotate around Palmer, Launchbury and Wentzel and he will always be useful as he plays 6 pretty well
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Post by propdavid_london Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:06 pm

Everyone has gone quiet about Steff Armitage at the moment - many were calling for his inclusion at the end of last season.

I know there were questions over unusual drugs tests - but I heard that he was playing for Tulon (surely that would be allowed if he was still under suspicion).

Any way - If he is showing any of the form he was last season then he still should be considered for National duty.

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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:13 pm

Launchburry's a great prospect. I think game time at 6 last season has really developed his game. On saturday he looked thirsty for action, and tackled hard and well. Would like to see him involved in the AIs.

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Post by Geordie Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:28 pm

Vedder

He wouyld have been involved in the final SA test had he not got injured...

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Post by Chjw131 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:28 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Everyone has gone quiet about Steff Armitage at the moment - many were calling for his inclusion at the end of last season.

I know there were questions over unusual drugs tests - but I heard that he was playing for Tulon (surely that would be allowed if he was still under suspicion).

Any way - If he is showing any of the form he was last season then he still should be considered for National duty.

If we were short of backrow talent I think you could make an argument for his inclusion, but frankly we've got an embarrassment of riches in that area at present, and I don't see him playing for England again. If you choose to move abroad then you make yourself unavailable by default.

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Post by Chjw131 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:33 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Vedder

He wouyld have been involved in the final SA test had he not got injured...

I think SA would've been a bit of a baptism of fire for the lad, but I suppose he has to start at some point. At present i'd be looking to start him against Fiji.

Did anyone see the Bath match? Did Attwood even start?

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Post by propdavid_london Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:34 pm

T14 player of the tournament still in my book suggests they could make an exception for an exceptional player.

If not for the main tests then the one vs Fiji - just to have another look at him.

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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:35 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Vedder

He wouyld have been involved in the final SA test had he not got injured...

DO you reckon GF? I thought he was there to gain experience with the squad setup....

anyway, we could've used him in the final test! You seen his tackles from the U20s' WC last year GF? Ridiculous.

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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:37 pm

Chjw131 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:Vedder

He wouyld have been involved in the final SA test had he not got injured...

I think SA would've been a bit of a baptism of fire for the lad, but I suppose he has to start at some point. At present i'd be looking to start him against Fiji.

Did anyone see the Bath match? Did Attwood even start?

Attwood didn't start- he came in about the 60th? Not sure why he wasn't starting. Hooper and Day were the starting pair.

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Post by Chjw131 Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:45 pm

Thanks blustone, I saw Gold talking Hooper up and up in the paper the other day so I assume he'll be first choice for him at 4. And he's still club Captain no?

And some of Launchburry's covering tackles in the U20s were indeed absolutely absurd for a front five forward. Amazing.


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Post by bluestonevedder Thu 06 Sep 2012, 4:54 pm

Chjw131 wrote:Thanks blustone, I saw Gold talking Hooper up and up in the paper the other day so I assume he'll be first choice for him at 4. And he's still club Captain no?

And some of Launchburry's covering tackles in the U20s were indeed absolutely absurd for a front five forward. Amazing.



No problem OK

Yeh Hooper's still captain, so Attwood and Day will really be competing for that place. Hopefully Attwood will get some good game time this season, because he's quite different to the other locks in the ENgland setup at the moment, and could be a welcome re-introduction. Time will tell!

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Post by alcoombe Thu 06 Sep 2012, 5:16 pm

It's certainly true that Hartley isn't as noticeable carrying as he was when he first broke onto the scene, but agree with those pointing out that he seems to have been asked to concentrate on other dimensions of his game. If I remember rightly, when someone did a stats analysis of the last 6N, as well as coming out on top amongst the tournament's hookers for tackles, he also passed & offloaded the most, which would account for the less charging. Most of the times he takes the ball into contact now seems to be when tidying up is required and securing the ball is more important.

Regarding Youngs' height, I don't see it as a big issue for his ability around the park, he seems pretty effective and plenty physical enough. I notice though that he is the same height as Mears who it was claimed compromised the front row at international level because of his difference in height to his props, something top opposing front row players were able to exploit to their scrummaging advantage.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 06 Sep 2012, 5:51 pm

Tom Youngs is 5'9" due to slouching a lot.

Lee Mears is 5'9" due to wearing Geri Halliwell's platform boots.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 06 Sep 2012, 8:26 pm

I'm a bit late but I'll chime in with my team of the weekend, I've seen the three televised games and the highlights of the others.

1.Vunipola - did a whole lot of carrying, worked hard in defence and held up his side of the scrum.
2.T Youngs - carried well, scrummaged well, one dodgey lineout throw aside he did well there and created a try with a great offload setting the Tigers overlap free.
3.Cole - did what he always does, menace on the deck and always in control at the scrum.
4.Botha - work horse who flourished in the new dynamic Sarries.
5.Parling - ruled the lineout and got around the park.
6.Johnson - played a part in the nullifying Gray at the lineout and from the highlights I saw was a menace.
7.Robshaw - good leadership to keep his side motivated and as usual he gave everything. Somewhat fortunate to be leading a team with Evans on form in it though.
8.Vunipola - rampaging runs and controlled well at the base, needs to up his fitness a bit more though.
9.K Dickson - transformed Quins control of the ball, a really assured display from a 9 I'm not normally a fan of.
10.Flood - narrowly edges out Hodgeson, passed well and created a number of attacking opportunities. I would like to see him try and go for touch with his kicks from hand though.
11.Wade - mullered poor George Lowe on the outside and made the covering defence (particularly Brown) look cumbersome.
12.Barritt - did everything right he tackled hard, made the tough yards and stepped in at first receiver when needed.
13.Tomkins - was tempted to go for Manu who showed some very nice handly skills as well as his pace and power but he looked a bit rusty. Tomkins was solid and showed some tasty offloads and good supporting lines. Joseph looked lightweight in opposition.
14.Ashton - classy performance from the much maligned Ash the Splash.
15.Goode - great all round performance, did everything right and just makes the right calls at the right times. Reminds me of Geordan Murphy more and more, just doesn't have the pace Geordie had when he was young.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu 06 Sep 2012, 8:34 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
2.T Youngs - carried well, scrummaged well, one dodgey lineout throw aside he did well there and created a try with a great offload setting the Tigers overlap free.
And it wasn't really that bad as at least it was still in between the two packs. Doyle let ones much less straight go

formerly known as Sam wrote:
15.Goode - great all round performance, did everything right and just makes the right calls at the right times. Reminds me of Geordan Murphy more and more, just doesn't have the pace Geordie had when he was young.

When is his current contact up?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Thu 06 Sep 2012, 9:01 pm

Don't think Sarries will be that careless LT. I heard rumours that Tigers tried previously. Sarries were after Hougaard and Tigers offerred to release him from his contract if Sarries did the same with Goode. Sadly Sarries pro Saffa owners weren't that stupid and told us to go and do one. We still let them have Hougaard though as he was cack.

Goode would be the ideal replacement but sadly I don't think it will ever happen.

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Post by DaveM Fri 07 Sep 2012, 7:34 pm

I thought Tomkins did ok (which is definitely progress), but I'm not sure he did any more than Daly - there were some nice passing skills demonstrated there.

I was also impressed with the other Vunipola, although I wish Sarries would make him focus on TH. We have decent LH's a plenty.

Goode would be my starting FB in the aumtumn, good as Brown and Foden both are.

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Post by Geordie Fri 07 Sep 2012, 7:42 pm

We've got a nice problem at full back now...3 quality players...

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Post by DaveM Fri 07 Sep 2012, 7:46 pm

A fair few 'problems' developing in different positions.

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Post by Geordie Fri 07 Sep 2012, 7:54 pm

Indeed Dave...


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Post by DaveM Fri 07 Sep 2012, 7:57 pm

If we can work out an attacking game e.g. get a convincing centre partnership up and running, then I think this season England will have a serious impact on the international stage.

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Post by Geordie Fri 07 Sep 2012, 8:02 pm

Ive been saying all summer...this season is going to HUGE for the state of the national team.

With Marler and Corbs improving
Youngs and Lindsay starting at hooker for their clubs...and Hartley going well
Kitchener starting games, Lawes to return, Garvey to see if hes good enough
The back row dilemas.....can Fearns and Morgan get fit and conditioned...

Not to mention all the backs....

I just hope we have the Management team to really make use of the kids...coming through....

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Post by DaveM Fri 07 Sep 2012, 8:07 pm

Good chance for 3 out of 4 wins in the AIs, with hopefully a credible performance against NZ too. We can then target the 6 Nations.

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Post by Geordie Fri 07 Sep 2012, 8:16 pm

Well...ill certainly be watching the AI's with interest.

We need to be putting in good performances against them...and i defo need to see a couple of wins...

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Post by Geordie Sat 08 Sep 2012, 5:05 pm

After round two....Banahan for 12.... Wink

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 08 Sep 2012, 5:59 pm

Banahan did alright, mainly because he is looking a lot leaner and fitter but as a centre he was a touch one dimensional. I think he could return as a winger but I can't see him pairing up well with Manu and Manu is a must have selection for England. He was excellent for England when at 13 for England in the summer and after a slow start last weekend (even then showing improved passing skills) he has scored a brace this weekend.

Good chance for 3 out of 4 wins in the AIs, with hopefully a credible performance against NZ too. We can then target the 6 Nations.

I think we may be out muscled again by SA but wins against Fiji and Aus should be a minimum. Three should definitely be the aim though, especially as we are on home soil. Might depend on the number of injuries though as although we are generating a good number of 9s, 15s, 1s etc, however, if a Cole or a Flood gets injured we might struggle.

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Post by mowgli Sat 08 Sep 2012, 6:05 pm

Whatever happens elsewhere England must pick Wade in the Autumn; I think he is also the Lions bolter.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sat 08 Sep 2012, 6:44 pm

[quote="mowgli"]Whatever happens elsewhere England must pick Wade in the Autumn; I think he is also the Lions bolter.[/quote

On this I agree, maybe not every test but certainly 2 of them.

I'd like to see Brown on vs SA, Goode vs Fiji and Foden vs Australia and whoever impresses most against the ABs. Same with Care and Youngs (Youngs starts vs AUS, Care vs SA)
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Post by formerly known as Sam Sat 08 Sep 2012, 8:41 pm

I'd start Goode at full back for all 4. His current form is excellent and we should be out to win these games not rotate for the sake of experience, that's what summer tours are for. It may be worth a little experimentation vs Fiji but for the big 3 it has to be the players on form, that's not to say for example Wade can't force his way in and start those games but that rotating Wade, Strettle and Sharples for each of those games should not be an option (unless there is form or injury issues).

We need to build a team first and then look to expand the squad to create back ups. Until the team has the required cohesion and performance then messing around with squad players is not a good idea.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 09 Sep 2012, 12:42 am

But in Foden we already have an experienced international fullback so it would be expanding to build back ups
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Post by DaveM Sun 09 Sep 2012, 10:27 am

Strettle should never get anywhere near the end side again. I think it's too early for Wade - he needs more game time. There are too many basic defensive errors, errors he will definitely fix but why knock his confidence?

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 09 Sep 2012, 10:52 am

Because he would still learn(and IMO far faster) playing for England and we need that kind of firepower on form on the wing? Let him
Play Fiji at the very least!
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Post by DaveM Sun 09 Sep 2012, 11:14 am

The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun 09 Sep 2012, 1:59 pm

But in Foden we already have an experienced international fullback so it would be expanding to build back ups

Currenlty I think he is in line to lose his place to Goode because Goode is in better form and really helped stimulate the backline in SA. The idea is that a team is developed and form players force their way in, not caps are handed out left, right and centre in the hope that a player will step up at some point in the future, well during the AIs anyway, that thinking should only be for the mid week games on the summer tour.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 09 Sep 2012, 2:52 pm

DaveM wrote:The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.

What would your back 3 be then?
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Post by LondonTiger Sun 09 Sep 2012, 4:27 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
DaveM wrote:The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.

What would your back 3 be then?

Monye, Banahan and cueto Wink

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Post by Cumbrian Sun 09 Sep 2012, 4:31 pm

Referring back to hookers debate, Hartley's carrying has been very good today and Exeter are no push overs in that area.
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Post by LondonTiger Sun 09 Sep 2012, 4:34 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Referring back to hookers debate, Hartley's carrying has been very good today and Exeter are no push overs in that area.

Best performance I have seen from Hartley in a long time.

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 09 Sep 2012, 5:12 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
DaveM wrote:The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.



What would your back 3 be then?

Monye, Banahan and cueto Wink

Monye can be very effective if used well. Like a hammer
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Post by DaveM Sun 09 Sep 2012, 7:10 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
DaveM wrote:The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.

What would your back 3 be then?

11: Foden
14: Ashton
15: Goode

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Post by ChequeredJersey Sun 09 Sep 2012, 7:17 pm

DaveM wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
DaveM wrote:The errors he is making are so basic I think he's best off working on them at club level. I think he could be an England winger for 8-10 years, no need to rush him.

What would your back 3 be then?

11: Foden
14: Ashton
15: Goode

So you are a fan of Foden at 11? I think if we stick with it it could work. Obviously I'd like Brown to start, but I am very biased
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Post by DaveM Sun 09 Sep 2012, 7:27 pm

Brown is a good player, it's just Goode is better. Important to have real pace wide with Goode at 15 which is why I'm sure Wade will be given a chance over the next 18 months.

And yes I think Foden can play 11 for the next year or so. I think Benjamin will be in with a shout once he's established at Tigers.

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Post by mowgli Sun 09 Sep 2012, 8:22 pm

It is not too early for Wade; sub him on for 20-30 when games are won (v Ire/Scots/Fr) start him v Italy etc. He will only progress if he is stuck into the mix early.

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Post by DaveM Sun 09 Sep 2012, 11:37 pm

He was making really, really basic defensive errors, and he clearly hasn't worked out an effective way to deal with the high ball. This is fine as he's young and inexperienced, but I just don't think international rugby is the best place to learn the basics of defence.

Unless he makes remarkable progress in the next month or so then we should give him a couple of starts for the Saxons in the spring, take him on the England tour next summer (I'm assuming there is one) and start him, and then hopefully he'll be ready to start for the 1st team in the autumn internationals of autumn 2013 (when he'll be about 22 years of age).

It's not like we need to rush him - Ashton is first choice on the right wing and given we have 3 excellent FBs using Foden on the wing for a while makes sense.

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Post by Geordie Mon 10 Sep 2012, 8:59 pm

Whilst i do agree that Wade has got defensive issues to work on...id still give him some time for England.

His offence is just so dangerous, and its time we focused on player positives not negatives.

If Australia - NZ or SA had a player like him coming through they'd have him in the squad like a shot!

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Post by ChequeredJersey Mon 10 Sep 2012, 11:00 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Whilst i do agree that Wade has got defensive issues to work on...id still give him some time for England.

His offence is just so dangerous, and its time we focused on player positives not negatives.

If Australia - NZ or SA had a player like him coming through they'd have him in the squad like a shot!

+1. At least let him run at Australia a bit. I really think you need to have a proper International squad and pick a core and change players depending on the opposition, because players and gameplans will be more or less effective against different opponents. Mixing up Brown, Foden and Goode isn't silly, for example, because none of them if objectively "the best fullback"- some will be better equipped to play against different teams. New Zealand have been doing it. That's the first clue that something is the way to approach rugby properly, especially when you look at countries refusing to adapt their gameplan to different situations (sorry Biltong)
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Post by DaveM Mon 10 Sep 2012, 11:22 pm

Nobody is denying the positives, but a good side would destroy him defensively. Straight-off I'd pepper him all game long. Once confidence starts to go it can take a very long time to return. Let him work on his weaknesses out of the spotlight. He doesn't have top be perfect, but he has to stop jumping out of the line and he needs to show he has found a technique that let's him compete on the high ball.

No way Wade is a better alround wing than Ashton or Foden at this stage. Well handled he can be a sensational, but there's no huury.

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Post by Geordie Tue 11 Sep 2012, 9:13 pm

I didnt say i would start Wade but i would certainly have him on the bench and give him gametime.

Ashton is 1st choice atm...the other wing starter is wide open. I dont want Foden there. He plays FB or he doesnt play.

Besides i would prefer a big fella to complement Ashton initially...maybe Benjamin if he does well for Tigers.

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Post by Geordie Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:13 am

I see Foden has picked up an injury...waiting to see the extent...if serious he could miss the AI's...meaning it could Brown v Goode potentially.

And on a plus note...big Courtney Lawes got a 25 min run out....

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Post by LondonTiger Sat 15 Sep 2012, 11:25 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see Foden has picked up an injury...waiting to see the extent...if serious he could miss the AI's...meaning it could Brown v Goode potentially.

And on a plus note...big Courtney Lawes got a 25 min run out....

He got a run out at 6.

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