England v SA, 5th ODI Debate

First topic message reminder :

The final ODI of the 5 match series between South Africa will start in a few hours from now at Trent Bridge. England go into the match with a 2-1 lead South Africa will have to win the match to draw the series.
England go in with home advantage, and they have been quite a force in ODI cricket at home. On paper they have a better balanced side as well with number 7 Samit Patel any day a better bat than his South African counterpart Wayne Parnell who averages less than 20. England are without Jonathan Trott thouth, who is out with a hand injury. This should most likely give Jonny Bairstow a much awaited opportunity. Ravi Bopara might be promoted up the order to 3, or perhaps considering his recent poor form with the bat, perhaps Kieswetter would be asked to do the job.
For South Africa the middle order isn't firing, and the bowling is not been consistent. Morne Morkel should return, possibly at the expense of Tsotsobe.
The weather is expected to be warm and sunny, but the late evening dew might be a factor.

skyeman wrote:Nasser saying it was odd to have Bops at three.

Whoever played 3 it wouldve been odd

Think de Villiers should try an over of Steyn, particularly as Kieswetter is not yet settled.

Good fifty for the Chef

Need a lot more from him. I wouldn't panic about the run rate - first thing is to make sure the innings doesn't fold up for a very inadequate total. Amazing what can be scored in the last ten overs if the right batsmen are in.

Faf du Plessis into the attack, and Cook out first ball, hitting it back to the bowler.

In fact of the 2nd ball.

Cook gone now

Not looking good. Time for Patel to shine ?

Its Samit Patel and not Chris Woakes at 7.

Eng 101/5, 3 soft dismissals has cost us today.

Never fear Woakes is here, well after Patel.

Duminy, Elgar and even du Plessis are capable parttime bowlers, and as they haven't opted for the 5th bowler, AB is using them well here. Perhaps that would tell him something about the team balance?

FREE HIT!!

Two free hits !

And Kieswetter manages only a single but anothe free hit.

Really haven't done much with the free hits today : two singles and a dot ball...

Who needs a free hit ? Nice boundary Kieswetter ...this is a dreadful over from Parnell...

Good bowling changes today from ABDV, but several have gifted their wkts.

I'd like to raise a point on Bopara:

He was the only realistic option for three today but he looks genuinely in horrendous knick. He is crucial to the ODI team as I have been saying, and there is a strong case for him to at least be in the Test squad, but with him in the form he's currently in can we still pick him in the T20 side for the World T20?

Twenty20 has often been a game where out of form players have been a major liability - more so than in the other two formats? So do we now play Lumb at three instead or do we stick with him because of what he offers with the ball? As a possible third option do we drop Ravi down to 6 in place of Buttler so that he can bowl his overs?

I don't know which way I'm going, but in this form you don't really want his batting to be critical to you winning a World T20.

skyeman wrote:Good bowling changes today from ABDV, but several have gifted their wkts.

Skye - agreed but it's always easier to be containing and look good with the ball when one or two wickets have fallen.

It's the opposite of this I fear about Bopara's bowling - what will happen with him coming on to bowl, say, in the 10th over with the score around 60 - 0 ....

Shelsey93 wrote:I'd like to raise a point on Bopara:

He was the only realistic option for three today but he looks genuinely in horrendous knick. He is crucial to the ODI team as I have been saying, and there is a strong case for him to at least be in the Test squad, but with him in the form he's currently in can we still pick him in the T20 side for the World T20?

Twenty20 has often been a game where out of form players have been a major liability - more so than in the other two formats? So do we now play Lumb at three instead or do we stick with him because of what he offers with the ball? As a possible third option do we drop Ravi down to 6 in place of Buttler so that he can bowl his overs?

I don't know which way I'm going, but in this form you don't really want his batting to be critical to you winning a World T20.

Here's an idea. Get Pietersen back and then Ravi isn't quite so crucial at the top of the order as you seem to think.

The old rule of doubling the 30 over score suggests 250 isn't out of reach yet ...but looks tricky with five out already.


Make that six

Right then Woakesy, show them what you can do!

Next person to slate Trott gets to sit next to KP Fan at dinner

To be honest they are playing like they just dont care

Fists of Fury wrote:
Here's an idea. Get Pietersen back and then Ravi isn't quite so crucial at the top of the order as you seem to think.

You're right of course.

But there is no way that KP could have been picked for this after all that's happened this summer and with the wounds not yet closed.

I just wish they'd chosen Chris Nash rather than Lumb - as well as potentially taking Bopara's place at three, Nash could have bowled Ravi's overs too. Difficult to drop Ravi completely when that would leave Hales, Kieswetter, Lumb, Morgan, Bairstow and Buttler as the top six - where do you go if you need some part time overs then (!) ?

The part time overs issue is the big thing, of course. However, on current form, Woakes would be better off at 4 than Ravi!!

I know we couldn't have picked KP for this series, but I'm talking in terms of the next one certainly.

Up to these two to knock it around for a few overs , then take the PP and try and hit a few boundaries.
If they bat most of the last eighteen overs they could still get the score up to 230 or so , but to be quite honest I don't give them much chance.
SA have done well today ...some clever (or just lucky?) bowling changes have undeniably worked , and the innings has never really looked like going anywhere.
Reckon this will see the ODI series finish 2-2

The p/p has to be taken now, hopefully 30 runs for no wkts.

Jaysus, i go away and England are in a real hole. 200 from here would be a fair effort...

Frig me, Bops yawning away on TV. tiring when you do nothing hey.

Woakeskeisweter is in serious danger of making it look like England arent hopeless here.

skyeman wrote:Frig me, Bops yawning away on TV. tiring when you do nothing hey.

He is resting up for the 5 wickets he is about to take

Not trying to be a smart arse (which probly means I am! ) but aren't we in danger of convincing ourselves that Bopara is a crucial foundation and then worrying that he's a rotten pillar.

If he wasn't selected, that worry would disappear.

Admittedly, other concerns would arise but you almost always get swings and roundabouts with all selections.

Picking a generally inconsistent batsman who now seems in particularly poor batting form in case he might be needed as a sixth bowler and in the hope anyway that his bowling hasn't been sussed by then seems a high risk without much likely return.

I dunno they made collingwood captain on that basis

Is it just me who can't stand david gower. Laughs only at his own jokes, ruins everyone else's by taking them literally all the time and just an all round arrogant man.

Nah Liam, Gower can be well annoying.

Kieswetter

guildfordbat wrote:Not trying to be a smart arse (which probly means I am! ) but aren't we in danger of convincing ourselves that Bopara is a crucial foundation and then worrying that he's a rotten pillar.

If he wasn't selected, that worry would disappear.

Admittedly, other concerns would arise but you almost always get swings and roundabouts with all selections.

Picking a generally inconsistent batsman who now seems in particularly poor batting form in case he might be needed as a sixth bowler and in the hope anyway that his bowling hasn't been sussed by then seems a high risk without much likely return.

If you expect nothing, you're apt to be surprised. But not in Ravi's case

I am not a massive Bopara fan but I reckon he is getting a rough run on here lately.
I don't think he is any more than a fringe Test player ; and despite his bowling he has probably slipped behind Bairstow and Taylor now. But for the fifty over game there just isn't anyone else who can feasibly bat in the top six and supply useful overs at present , is there ?

He has either batted or bowled well in most of his recent ODI appearances - the problem is of course that he almost never does both - and England have been winning...
We shouldn't be kidding ourselves that today's batting collapse is all or mainly down to poor old Ravi

Just get over the the 200 England

Bloody Morkel ...why couldnt he have injured himself in the first game of the series.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Bloody Morkel ...why couldnt he have injured himself in the first game of the series.

Shame on you.

eirebilly wrote:Just get over the the 200 England

200 looking like a stretch now ...plenty of overs left but bit thin on the batting strength.

They may still sneak over the mark but you'd think SA would be pretty confident chasing say 210 anyway. Still might as well give them at least a chance to ch***

Still possible while Woakes is there alfie

alfie wrote:I am not a massive Bopara fan but I reckon he is getting a rough run on here lately.
I don't think he is any more than a fringe Test player ; and despite his bowling he has probably slipped behind Bairstow and Taylor now. But for the fifty over game there just isn't anyone else who can feasibly bat in the top six and supply useful overs at present , is there ?

He has either batted or bowled well in most of his recent ODI appearances - the problem is of course that he almost never does both - and England have been winning...
We shouldn't be kidding ourselves that today's batting collapse is all or mainly down to poor old Ravi

I certainly have not.Today has been poor. all round.

But since i started on 606 i have always said that Bops, as a Test player is pure mince.

alfie wrote:I am not a massive Bopara fan but I reckon he is getting a rough run on here lately.
I don't think he is any more than a fringe Test player ; and despite his bowling he has probably slipped behind Bairstow and Taylor now. But for the fifty over game there just isn't anyone else who can feasibly bat in the top six and supply useful overs at present , is there ?

He has either batted or bowled well in most of his recent ODI appearances - the problem is of course that he almost never does both - and England have been winning...
We shouldn't be kidding ourselves that today's batting collapse is all or mainly down to poor old Ravi

Stokes? Patel? Trott? KP? A tinned chocolate pudding?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

alfie wrote:I am not a massive Bopara fan but I reckon he is getting a rough run on here lately.
I don't think he is any more than a fringe Test player ; and despite his bowling he has probably slipped behind Bairstow and Taylor now. But for the fifty over game there just isn't anyone else who can feasibly bat in the top six and supply useful overs at present , is there ?

He has either batted or bowled well in most of his recent ODI appearances - the problem is of course that he almost never does both - and England have been winning...
We shouldn't be kidding ourselves that today's batting collapse is all or mainly down to poor old Ravi

Stokes? Patel? Trott? KP? A tinned chocolate pudding?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

alfie wrote:I am not a massive Bopara fan but I reckon he is getting a rough run on here lately.
I don't think he is any more than a fringe Test player ; and despite his bowling he has probably slipped behind Bairstow and Taylor now. But for the fifty over game there just isn't anyone else who can feasibly bat in the top six and supply useful overs at present , is there ?

He has either batted or bowled well in most of his recent ODI appearances - the problem is of course that he almost never does both - and England have been winning...
We shouldn't be kidding ourselves that today's batting collapse is all or mainly down to poor old Ravi

Stokes? Patel? Trott? KP? A tinned chocolate pudding?

200 seems a real long way to go now...

eirebilly wrote:Still possible while Woakes is there alfie

Once again I am admiring your positive outlook , Billy

But I suspect Woakes may be left high and dry before the end here...I reckon 188 all out.

Won't be enough.

A couple of decent shots from Woakes and who knows alfie

Petersen on a hatrick....

Maybe 178 all out ? Not a wise choice first ball from Jimmy A.

Still hope of 200

Respectable batting from Woakes, staking a good claim here.