England v SA, 5th ODI Debate

First topic message reminder :

The final ODI of the 5 match series between South Africa will start in a few hours from now at Trent Bridge. England go into the match with a 2-1 lead South Africa will have to win the match to draw the series.
England go in with home advantage, and they have been quite a force in ODI cricket at home. On paper they have a better balanced side as well with number 7 Samit Patel any day a better bat than his South African counterpart Wayne Parnell who averages less than 20. England are without Jonathan Trott thouth, who is out with a hand injury. This should most likely give Jonny Bairstow a much awaited opportunity. Ravi Bopara might be promoted up the order to 3, or perhaps considering his recent poor form with the bat, perhaps Kieswetter would be asked to do the job.
For South Africa the middle order isn't firing, and the bowling is not been consistent. Morne Morkel should return, possibly at the expense of Tsotsobe.
The weather is expected to be warm and sunny, but the late evening dew might be a factor.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

And I wouldn't like to see Woakes any higher than 7 tbh, he bats there for his county for a reason and I'm not sure he would cut the mustard as a top 6 batter in international cricket.

*cough*Bopara*cough*keisweter*cough

Bit harsh. Craig won the game with aplomb the other day, and second top scored today.

msp83 wrote:South Africa walks it at the end of it all, with another stroll in the park from Hashim Amla. Very good innings from the captain too, and whatever pressure that was there at 14-3 they just dealt with it in the most emphatic style.

They choked.

Should have done it in 25 overs.

JDizzle wrote:Hmm, this was my fear about Woakes's bowling, he can only get it up to 82mph in his first over and I think he might lack the nip to make it as a bowler at the very highest level. Will be interesting to see how he goes.

He bowls every bit as quick as Vernon Philander...what is this ridiculous obsession with pace?

As long as he continues to work on extracting seam movement and swing, which he has been doing and which has given him fantastic returns in domestic cricket over the last two seasons, then there is no reason why he cannot be a success.

Further to that, he is clearly more suited to the longer format than ODI's, much as Philander himself is. It annoys me that England see the ODI team as a sort of pre-exam for the Test side. It shouldn't work like that. Woakes' batting is easily of Test number 7 standard, and he would make an incredibly strong number 8, and whilst his batting may be useful in all forms I'd suggest that his bowling would prove far more effective in Tests. His Warwickshire record proves that, given his better returns in first class cricket in comparison to list A.

But he isn't the same type of bowler as Philander, it isn't a fair comparison. He bowls the same pace as McGrath, it doesn't make him as good as him. Philander relies on an unerring accuracy which Woakes doesn't, yet, possess and Philander is more a seam bowler than a swing bowler and can nip it both ways whilst Woakes is primarily a conventional out-swing bowler who doesn't have the in-swinger in his armoury. Woakes also swings the ball very early away from the batsmen so he has more time to adjust to the movement, and this is plenty enough time for a quality Test player, unlike an Anderson who gets late swing as well as having more variation than Woakes. That's why I feel Woakes needs to be up at about 85/86mph to have an effect at International level as I just feel that top batsmen will be able to play his bowling comfortably otherwise.

And I would have to disagree about Woakes's batting be good enough for a number 7 at Test level. Look at the recent series, the two number 7's were Matt Prior and JP Duminy and can you really saw he is as good a player as either of these two? He's better than Bres, so he is probably about a 7.5 at the moment but he does have the potential to grow into a quality Test 7, yes.

I can't see him as one of England's best three quick bowlers at the moment, and the only way I see him breaking into the Test side any time soon is as a fifth bowler at number 7, and if England go with Swann and Panesar in India which they might (Although they probably shouldn't, but that's another argument) then I still feel Bres is a better bet than him for this role for the all round package. And if they play only Swann, and five bowler then he will just be the fourth right arm seamer and won't offer anything extra so I can't see him playing this way either.

I think he could establish himself in the ODI side though. As a fifth bowler, batting number 7, that could be his role and think he is much more likely to stake a place in the ODI side at this moment in time than he is for the Test team.