Well that's it for me.

After thinking and fuming about another pathetic perfromance by the Boks yesterday I have decided that until Meyer either resigns or decides to take a new direction for Bok rugby I am no longer going to support his efforts.

I held on for the last two years to see how embarressingly poor the Springbok record has become and there is currently no way Meyer will convince me that he has anything up his sleeve that will turn things around.

His continuous excuses, his captain that blindly echo's every sentiment is infuriating to the point where I will break my 40" LCD.

We'll learn from this.

They are to Bloody stupid to learn anything. We couldn't even scrum against the Aussies, we couldn't dominate the breakdowns, no matter whether it is Ruan Pienaar, Francois Hougaard, Fourie du Preez or the man on the moon, we can't clear a rcuk quickly enough becuase the halfback is "waiting" to setup the next predictable forwrd pod, and then gets counter rucked.

I think yesterday's game must have been the most kicks I have seen in a game of soccer, never mind rugby.

How can they not get the fact that everyone and his dog knows about the forward pod that runs from the 1 channel, even the blind school knows about it.

Anyhoo, wnanted to vent, but that's me, no more talk about the Boks until they get their act together, it is embarressing to think how much talent is wasted in such a once proud rugby nation.

Biltong it is times like this your team need you to be there - not to abandon them.

Through thickj and thin mate - you can do it.

Biltong - I feel your pain and would be interested to know your views as to why with a pack like the Sharks have (Mtawarira, the du Plessis, Alberts, Coetzee and Kankowski in particular) and a backline like the Stormers have (Pietersen, Aplon, de Jongh, de Villiers and Habana in particular), SA shouldn't be turning over sides like the Aussies.

Seems like it's shades of Ireland - club sides hugely confident and competitive - national side looks disjointed and relatively flat.

That's because Ireland and RSA have one thing in common. A coach who is playing dumb, outdated rugby that is easy to stop. Watching Kidney's Ireland has been hell for three years now for me. How long is Meyer contracted for?

Biltong why not accept that this year is a make do one,many of your top players are longterm injured,ditto TheWallabies.Next year could be very different,even this year as injured players come back in stream for Autumn tour.Neither side looked sure what to do last saturday,and the parade of Aussies going off was horrendous.On Saturday you face a not yet settled All Black side in NZ,no Carter no certain starters at 4.5,6,14,a 9 yet to be really pressured etc.Give it a go an All Black win without conceding a bonus point,means you would need to win both the last wo with a bonus point.possible but unlikely.Boks have nothing to lose go for broke.

I was going to say something but as usual Feckless already said it!

But yep, it's pointedly obvious that Biltong now understands the real frustrations of the Irish supporter and the idea that there is justification in saying player form, ability and proven skills levels are being squandered at International level to seriously [i]impotent coaching.

You could substitute the word Boks with 'Ireland' and Meyer with 'Kidney' and I'd be almost certain that rant was about Ireland.

Bill after watching the rapid demise of welsh rugby in the 1990's I'be got to offer you a word of advice, something I learnt in Australia, "take a cement pill mate and harden the hell up!!!".

It's sad when your team can't make it work, but the bad times will only make you appreciate the good

Biltong mate, you know how I am like when we lose, I think for bout 2 days we must be the pansies of the rugby world, so I really understand how you feel. But 2 days later and I am looking forward to the next game, when I know everything will click, not that it always does, but I get the downer away and see the positives (geesh I am sounding like a losing coach!!), so I think bout now you're also thinking too of next game, no wucking furries!!

Think you may be falling into the trap though of thinking the Wallabies' scrum is there to be pushed off the ball. Sure they're not up there with the best, but not as bad as made out to be.

And with the side packed with stars and potential stars as your's is, only one way to go mate, and that'll be up!!

Biltong, In the words of the great Chopper Read: HTFU! Try being Scots for a week sometime!

No, I agree with Biltong. South Africa are in a bad patch. For Meyer, whatever about losing to Robbie Deans, losing to Declan Kidney in the Autumn is a far, far worse prospect. He'll probably eat the walkietalkie after that one.

Well my comments havnt helped pre match but agree with the frustration. Difference with SA and everyone else is they have an abundance of talent when looking at the sxv and currie cup sides but choose to ignore it for the sake of a limited gameplan.

Meyer has an autocratic style and chooses not to employ the help of others. It shows.

The frustration is also shown by a lot of SA posters on the AB website so you're not alone biltong. It would drive me nuts and Id do the same.long ago.

They may beat the ABs because no one can muster the motivation they will have. But it will be too late.

It is pretty similar to the situation Ireland are in. The worst thing about it all is that SA have some of the most talented players in the world. Seriously, Meyer couldn't ask for a better set of players. Is there much of a difference between the quality of the NZ players and the quality of the SA players? I don't think so. Yet Meyer just doesn't utilise their talents. Or even play them in the first place. He is so outdated in his thinking.

Typing that gives me a real hint of deja vu.

I see it like this Biltong:

1. PdV was a nightmare. He didn'r develop new talent and he stuck rigidly to a predictable game plan for 5 years until all the senior experienced players who could still make it work are retiring.

2. Enter new coach. He can either (1) break the SA traditions and try to adopt the new faster game, bring in young talent all over the place and wear the inexperienced losses (The Robbie Deans approach) or (2) Hark back to a better age. Rigidly apply some SA stereotypes and insist it will if the players just get it right. Even though it won't, and they can't. (3) Be really smart, a leader and find a third way (in Budhist parlance) that will work.

Unfortunately I don't think he's smart enough for 3, or brave enought for 1. So we get what we see.

Hopefully someone will notice how good SA looked in the last 20 against Australia and how close they came to snatching it. I don't think many teams could live with SA playing for 80 the way they played in that 20 - especially when they make more experienced about it and work on the combinators!

Don't lose heart you old wildebeast! I can smell a new dawn for Springbok rugby. I just wonder whether it might be time for a foreign coach to inject some other perspective into the team. What do you think?

To say South Africa is poor at the moment is an understatement of gigantic proportions. Thinking about the last 3 years of Springbok rugby and the dismal performances that has been plagueing our national team is getting to a point of not only embarrassment but also ridicule.

When South Africans start making fun of their team and coach and write little satirical pieces on Lambie not being in the run on team because he attacks the gain line or pose a threat to opposition teams then you must know South Africans are at the end of their tether.

To go down a fifth straight loss against Australia is truly the bottom of the pit.

So how does one fix this? The first priority must be to eradicate the Springboks of any and all staff or players who believe nothing is wrong and that they are on the right track.

That starts with the Captain Jean de Villiers. His incessant affirmation of Heyneke Meyer’s gameplan is not only a plight on his own judgement but also the quickest way for him to lose respect amongst his fans. Apart from being Heyneke Meyer’s lapdog he hasn’t completed a decent pass since 2008, he hasn’t beaten an opponent on the in or outside and only managed to run through the defence one in every 27 attemps, and even then he goes down with the ball and turns over possession, either via a penalty or pilfer.


The issue here is who of the injured players and current senior players should be completely cut from the Springboks and who are still worthy and able to make the paradigm shift towards a revivial of springbok rugby.

Zane Kirchner
Forget for the moment that he does score the odd try or does complete the odd offload five meters from the line when any 5 year old will realize the opportunity. He doesn’t want to pass, he doesn’t want to hit the gap.

Ruan Pienaar
One of my favourite springbok players of the last number of years and he had the opportunity to prove his worth on the weekend, yes he does the box kicks well, but I couldn’t believe that he was more interested in organizing the next attacking pod, totally blissfully ignorant of the fact that his forwards were being pushed back when quick ball was more necessary than a traffic cop.

Pierre Spies
Unless Pierre Spies is educated regarding the physics of the contact area and he passes the subject cum laude with a practical examination of body position he should go.

Morne Steyn.
I can go into a tirade of the many reasons why he should go, but suffice to say it is clear he never did any creative sessions at kindergarden.

We need a backline of :

9.Charl Mcleod/Sarel Pretorius
10.Johan Goosen
11.Bryan Habana
12.Patrick Lambie
13.Paul Jordaan
14.JP Pietersen
15.Frans Steyn.

With Taute and Hougaard on the bench, they basically cover all positions in the backline.

Our backrow needs more athleticiism.

We need Burger back.

We need Bismarck back.

We need Coenie Oosthuizen.

Our backline needs freedom to attack, it is fine to win a territorial battle, but what the ..... do you do when you get to the other side?

I disagree. I think a captain who backs the coaches and the players and keep his personal feeling separate is essential. You can't have the players breaking ranks and getting divided and the best way to have it happen is if the captain lead them into rebellion.

A captain I respect once said to me: "Shut up and get on with it. If you don't like the script, then try to stand out as the best actor in a dismal play".

And I think the players should do that and trust to the those put in power to bring the right script with them. It's not their job to write it.

Perfect. Solution in a box. If the SA fraternity started with this it would be heading down the right path. Also like AWOPs comment:

"bring in young talent all over the place and wear the inexperienced losses "

They could have done this this year if Meyer had have prepared the rugby public for it. Deans got away with it (well is still getting away with it).

SA may win their two at home against Oz and NZ which will probably give Meyer the pass mark for the year...so we'll roll on next year...

I am blessed or cursed with a great memory and knowledge of Rugby Union.The Boks and All Blacks coaches have several things in common they cannot afford to lose matches.Itis a fact that you can have 30 great players but not a great team.The Lions are proof of that when it was politically expedient to pick right players/captains.The Boks are in rebuild mode and it seems every time I switch on my PC another is injured.It isn`t about gameplans,styles of play,physicality.It is about doing the simple things well and building from there,first the tight 5,then they back row,then the backs.A back row of Burger,Alberts and Broussow if you must have a fetcher at 7 whatever number he wears.It was said that the Boks never field a running 10 which may be true,the last AB one was Carlos Spencer.At this level you expect all your players to have basic skills and be able to execute at least two game plans.You need journeymen as well as stars the ABs are also wary of stars steady over the flamboyant.Merthens over Spencer,Fox over Botica etc.DC is an all rounder and can do the lot hence his world rating.I was in debate about the running game pre this weekend,and said what happens when you don`t get the forward platform.With 9/10 struggling under pressure they struggled the match turned on a journey man 9 with all the experiece,slotting into a back line he was very familiar with.At the moment the Boks are ringing the changes trying to replace great players.Next year expect the 5 second rule at the base of the ruck,and 4 starting props in place.Incidentally the OZ Scrum is solid now,and desperate for a win.Take heart you have still only lost one match the 4Ns may be gone BUT you finish with 2 home games.Then like the Abs in 2009 take it out on the NH and go for clean sweeep in the AI`s and build from there.

You want to see Frans Steyn at 15 rather than 12, Biltong? To be honest I think that would be a good move, but I thought you wanted him at 12 and nowhere else.

I can see the frustration, but if we all bailed out on our sides when we weren't happy with the coaching, playing style or results there would be some pretty quiet international games.

Chin up! Try being English, Welsh, Irish or Scottish for a year or two. Or French (that must be a very odd experience!)

Keep the pecker up Bilts

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You want to see Frans Steyn at 15 rather than 12, Biltong? To be honest I think that would be a good move, but I thought you wanted him at 12 and nowhere else.

It's more a case of not wanting Lambie at 15 Rory. Lambie is more effective as a playmaker, with him out side Goosen we have two playmakers that will create a lot of doubt for defences.

From a Welsh point of view, Wales did better than SA against Australia. I conclude that NZ look well ahead of the other teams but there is little between the next 4 or 5 teams so the AI's should be interesting.

The return match SA V Aust should be close and anybodies game. SA, Wales and Ireland play very predictable rugby with their current coaching management, if they are to improve they all need a change in tactics.

i hear you biltong and i have had similar rants over the last few years about ireland our problems are similar. i know you were not hammered but that Australian team were missing the guts of 10 players. You were dreadful to watch.

Listen from an Irish perspective results are not everything but i just hate watching us play at such a slow tempo and with no creativity.

Roll on Ireland v South Africa. Should be a joyous occasion

glamorganalun wrote:From a Welsh point of view, Wales did better than SA against Australia. I conclude that NZ look well ahead of the other teams but there is little between the next 4 or 5 teams so the AI's should be interesting.

The return match SA V Aust should be close and anybodies game. SA, Wales and Ireland play very predictable rugby with their current coaching management, if they are to improve they all need a change in tactics.

Alun, not sure what point you are making, but let's imagine for a second that Scotland had beaten Australia this summer, that wouldn't really have any implications for anything else would it? The gap is still pretty big imo

When it comes to injuries it sure helps when teams from our ITM and sxv are all on the same page- all playing all positions as though they were in the AB's- the best of which eventually do come through.

This year we've been able to bring other players through, share the load, and broaden experience deep enough to cover more postions than we have been able to before.

We've now at least 3 international level 9's, 10's, locks, hookers and probably 4-5 props. 4 or 5 wingers, 2 or 3 fullbacks and are really only shallow at 12 and 13. On top of that we've also been much luckier than the Oz and SA sides, but part of that I think is selection and management.

SA rely on a certain style that isnt reflected by some teams- Cheetahs and Lions for a start. Thats two sides largely ignored by the selection process, putting pressure on 3 sides rather than 5 to produce the players and replaced the injured.

Oz are similar but simply dont have the players to support it even from their top 3 sides.

The depth and consistency of how NZ manages its game and players, together with a bit of luck is certainly coming through.

Biltong wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You want to see Frans Steyn at 15 rather than 12, Biltong? To be honest I think that would be a good move, but I thought you wanted him at 12 and nowhere else.

It's more a case of not wanting Lambie at 15 Rory. Lambie is more effective as a playmaker, with him out side Goosen we have two playmakers that will create a lot of doubt for defences.

Thats the best scenario. 9,10 and 12 would have supported the back row in delivering front foot ball. Taking the ball to the line from 10 or 12 effectively gives you so many more options. Deans was adamant Cooper had to take the ball to the line and that really helped Oz on the weekend and could have been better with a bit more luck/ bounce of the ball.

Since 2010 the rule changes have meant more running the ball and MUCH better defences to stop them. Now its the turn of the attacking sides to break these defences and taking the ball to the line, hand offs, half passes (not started but adapted in such an attacking way by by SBW) are now the methods of beating defences and the time they need to regroup. SA do none of this and have been left behind in that way.

But Biltong, the game plan worked for 60 minutes

And leave the Lambie thing for now, he hasn't been on form and I thought you were a chose the players on form type of fan.

And I think we look better with each game we play, you have to remember that Heineke has a fairly new squad to work with. Just give him some more time to establish himself.

a true fan never abandons their team...rats and ship etc

Just frustration mowgli. Meyer blaming the players inexperience in not executing the gameplan after 60 was a bit off and fans can read between the lines. SA have a three wins from six ratio under meyer and they won't tolerate that. So much can be attributed to injuries and inexperience but there's enough to suggest the coach accountable here. He's based a gameplan on the exclusion of some of SA's strengthsso questions will be asked.

FerN wrote:But Biltong, the game plan worked for 60 minutes

And leave the Lambie thing for now, he hasn't been on form and I thought you were a chose the players on form type of fan.

And I think we look better with each game we play, you have to remember that Heineke has a fairly new squad to work with. Just give him some more time to establish himself.

Fern, as low on confidence as Lambie is, he looked more incisive in 10 minutes than Kirchner looked the whole match.

Mowgli, it is my team, and Meyer is #$^& it up. As long as he continues along this path there is no hope.

Biltong
look on the bright side. At least you are not English like me.

gregortree wrote:Biltong
look on the bright side. At least you are not English like me.

Mate, I know it is difficult for other supporters as well, but the blinkers that is going on in SA rugby is astounding.

How the hell do they not see it?

If I as a forward prop can see we have problems, how the hell don't they.

I wrote a piece in 2009 after our tri Nations win and said then SA rugby is not seeing the flaws in our gameplan. They still don't see it.

If there was ever and apt saying, then this one rings true for so many in SARU "Nobody is as blind as those who don't want to see"

Biltong wrote:

FerN wrote:But Biltong, the game plan worked for 60 minutes

And leave the Lambie thing for now, he hasn't been on form and I thought you were a chose the players on form type of fan.

And I think we look better with each game we play, you have to remember that Heineke has a fairly new squad to work with. Just give him some more time to establish himself.

Fern, as low on confidence as Lambie is, he looked more incisive in 10 minutes than Kirchner looked the whole match.

Mowgli, it is my team, and Meyer is #$^& it up. As long as he continues along this path there is no hope.

Biltong, I don't know if we watched the same game. Kirchner was one of the 4 best players in my opinion, maybe it is due to the fact that he is playing a game plan that is similar to his franchise. Goosen really lit up the game though. Lambie at 12, I don't know - I would rather have JDV move back there and get JdJ in at 13 and move Frans to FB. The Lambie sparkle is not there for me any more. Did Jordaan play inside or outside for the Sharks? Because JDV isn't going to be here much longer and he also isn't playing that well in any case (But still a better bet than Lambie for me).

Fern, Kirchner looks good with ball in hand, but you can say the same about many other players who has space to run from, it is what happens once he gets the ball, he runs straight and is intent on either scoring himself or going to ground with the ball, he rarely passes the ball, he isn't aware of his support runner, there is no communication from him as to where he wants his support runner.

Lambie needs game time, he will be more dangerous than anyone else we have on attack at 12, J d Villiers has had his time, he was a great player but is to steadfast in his ways to change or adapt.

Biltong

Your rant about JdV as captain really reminded me of the Borthwick era for England. A captain who was not producing the goods on the pitch, and then just came out with the same tired cliches in the post match interviews. Drove the fans up the bleeding wall that the coaching staff couldn't spot the problems (although to be fair, we also didn't have the players to be a much better team, unlike SA at the moment).

Have you got to the 'lessons will be learned' cliche yet?

Oh, so it wasn't it for him after all

Sadly they are still learning from this. It seems we are a bunch of slow learners.

Some may say, dimwitted.

what's dimwitted in Afrikaans?

I would love to give the the "real ones" but that involves swearing, so I'll provide you with the "clean" ones.

So dom soos grond - As thick as mud.
So stadig hy sal dit eers volgende week vang - He is so slow, it wil take him a week to digest.
Onnosel - It is worse than dum, but you guys don't have a word for it.
So toe soos n' kleios se gat - as closed as a clay oxens' backside.

Thanks for those Biltong (storing them away securely in my locker)...and watch out next time our sides meet...I'll be regaling you with juicy Afrikaans!

By the way, we Irish do have a word for 'Onnosel' - it's Gobshite

ha ha Fly/ Biltong, I'll stay tuned

SecretFly wrote:Thanks for those Biltong (storing them away securely in my locker)...and watch out next time our sides meet...I'll be regaling you with juicy Afrikaans!

By the way, we Irish do have a word for 'Onnosel' - it's Gobshite

Not strong enough mate, I see Gobshite as a simile for nonsense, as in I think that is Gobshite.

Onnosel is in the degrees of comparison the lowest or worst one.

It will be stadig - dom - onnosel.

It's like dead - deader - deadest.

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Thanks for those Biltong (storing them away securely in my locker)...and watch out next time our sides meet...I'll be regaling you with juicy Afrikaans!

By the way, we Irish do have a word for 'Onnosel' - it's Gobshite

Not strong enough mate, I see Gobshite as a simile for nonsense, as in I think that is Gobshite.

Onnosel is in the degrees of comparison the lowest or worst one.

It will be stadig - dom - onnosel.

It's like dead - deader - deadest.

Gobshite is a descriptive term for a person. Someone who is talking nonsense.

A gobshite is a gobshite and he's one whether he talks Poopie or not. I've met a lot of mute or silent type gobshites in my life. They don't have to pass any definition test..in fact, they rarely pass any humanity test at all, __ and that's possibly the very test that affirms the diagnosis

To go down a fifth straight loss against Australia is truly the bottom of the pit.

Am I too late for the cheer-up sesh? I was going to say that that quote is just plain wrong. Losing to Wales would surely be the bottom of the pit by your standards Biltong, we the side who managed to lose five straight times to the Aussies in the same season!

Look on the bright side, at least your streak occurred over the course of several seasons

Biltong you don't seem to understand: Heyneke is playing the long con...he is lulling the All Blacks into a false sense of security: We shall have them by 50-0 in New Zealand, just you wait and see.

To go down a fifth straight loss against Australia is truly the bottom of the pit.

Look at it this way Biltong...Wales are on 7 straight defeats to Australia and they are celebrating how great they are! At least the perspective is still straight!

At this moment Meyer is absolutely gushing over the AB's so I think hes learnt the diplomacy card well and truly.

I wouldnt be surprised if he tries something different Saturday (well actually I'd be shocked to be honest but felt like saying this).

But with his pack diminishing further with Eben out he's going to have to come up with something. He could do the Goosen Lambie 10,12 thing and although its unfair on the young 10 to effectively cop the fallout it could also be character building and gives the Boks one small weapon that they havnt had for, well, years...unpredictability.

If he thinks the 60 minute 'on track' gameplan of last week will be enough to beat the AB's then he's dreaming.

Goosen and Lambie offer something....Ive no idea what...but its something.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

To go down a fifth straight loss against Australia is truly the bottom of the pit.

Look at it this way Biltong...Wales are on 7 straight defeats to Australia and they are celebrating how great they are! At least the perspective is still straight!

I'll bite. I don't recall seeing many Welshmen frothing over "how great they are". I've seen some euphoria over what we have achieved recently, which is three Slams in 8 years and coming this close to a RWC final. Is that not worth being happy about?

Patrick Lambie expressed his frustration on Tuesday with his bit-part role with the Springboks during this year’s Rugby Championship but said that he would do everything in his power to prove to coach Heyneke Meyer that he is ready for a role in South Africa’s starting XV.

Utility back Lambie has been on the bench for all three of South Africa’s Rugby Championship matches this season but he failed to make an appearance in the two tests against Argentina and played just 10 minutes in the 26-19 loss to Australia in Perth.

Lambie is certain to be named on the bench again for Saturday’s clash with the All Blacks in Dunedin on Saturday and said that all he could do to break into South Africa’s run-on XV is to just work harder.

“I’m desperate for some game time. I’ve been training hard, as hard if not harder than the guys that have been starting to try and get into the starting XV. I’m hoping and looking forward to some more game time and making the most of my opportunity. If I get a chance to get on the field I will be doing all that I can to impress the coach and other players,” he told reporters in Auckland where South Africa are basing themselves before making the move to Dunedin on Thursday.

“It was really nice to get on the field against Australia. I sat on the bench for the other two games and didn’t get on, which was very disappointing and a bit frustrating so it was nice to get on albeit for 10 minutes.

“It’s not much time to do anything but I got my hands on the ball a couple of times, cleaned a few rucks and did everything that I could, unfortunately it was a bit too late,” he added.

Lambie was used at flyhalf and fullback by his franchise team The Sharks during this year’s Super Rugby season but Meyer has made it clear that he views the talented 21-year-old as a fullback.

Lambie, who has amassed 14 caps during his fledgling career, said that he did not mind where he played as long as he was starting.

“I’ve had an ankle injury so I’ve played all of 10 minutes of rugby in the last six weeks and before that 80 minutes in the last 10 weeks so I’m feeling fresh and raring to go.

“I just want to be in the starting line-up so whether that is at fullback or flyhalf I don’t mind at the moment. It would have been really nice to have got some game time at flyhalf against Argentina but, in saying that, if I get time at fullback this weekend that will be great too,” he explained.

Lambie was quick to play down suggestions that the Springboks are simply a kick-and-chase team but conceded that the Boks could have launched a few more counter-attacks with ball at hand against Australia, something which had been discussed during the team’s post-match review.

“If you look at the stats from the weekend Australia actually kicked five more times than we did so the whole perception that we are just kicking everything away and chasing and hoping for the best is actually false.

“Maybe the mindset had been that we were going to kick contestable kicks back onto Australia so the whole team wasn’t working hard enough to get back to give the guys catching those balls the opportunity to counter-attack. It was something that was mentioned yesterday and I am sure that we will address it this week in training,” he concluded.