avviva Premiership excellent product

Over the past few seasons the rugby displayed in the Avviva premiership has been improving, so far after 2 rounds I think the rugby played has been the best yet. There have been shed loads of tried scored, loads of offloads, attacking rugby, close games its had it all. To top it off all team have been playing their big name internationals from the off. All in all the Avviva premisership is an excellent product. Its a real shame that the Rabbo product doesn't live up to that of the Avviva. There's no doubt Ireland, Wales and to a lesser degree Scotland and Italy have some excellent players. However the league just isn't cutting it. the big name Irish players have not been starting, not many tries have been scored and the whole league seems flat with low skill levels on show. The Osprey v Ulster game was extremely poor and only improved when the likes of Ferris came off the bench (its a travisty t the league that wasn't allowed to start the game). If it wasn't for the Irish provinces I'm sure the legaue would fold. The two products are poles apart. One has the best players in the league playing week in week out with trys, intensity, attacking rugby, good crowds and has meaning (Avviva premiership). The other has low skill levels, many of the top players been rested, teams using the league to play their 2nd team as a warm up to the HK, terrible crowds and a lack of any meaning (Rabo)

I've been saying this for a while.

Not really sure we're warming up for Hong Kong mind...

Possibly.

The Pro12 simply has a different purpose. It's important for 4 countries, not just one. It helps these teams get into shape for the more crucial matches in the HC and internationals.

It has certainly worked for Ulster,Leinster and Munster - their strong HC record proves this. It allows Ireland to carefully manage their players.

The Welsh sides have had mixed results in the HC but internationally the Pro12 has been a excellent breeding ground for Welsh quality to come through.

The Scottish and Italians get the opportunity to challenge themselves against better sides, especially in the HC where results actually matter. It's working slowly but surely. Edinburgh managed to get to the HC semi by focussing all their efforts on this competition. Both have been developing decent Scottish internationals who could well Scotland into a strong team to be feared.

Italy are taking baby steps but their win against in the 6 nations vs France in 2011 shows there is potential.

Lets face it if England/France only had four teams then they would perform a lot better in the HC they might even dominate it again, but the fans don't want that as they want to see the best players week in week out rather than a few weekends a year.

The HC is overrated IMO and is damaging the game at a domestic level for the Rabo teams.

I've got say i have definitely enjoyed watching the Premiership more than the Pro 12 so far this season. Every game except for ones where Sarries have played i've enjoyed

Gowales Sarries are the most exciting team to watch. What are you on about?

Hersh the HC isn't overrated. Just because Bath aren't taking part.

The HC would be the greatest competition on the planet if the mightiest AP side were in the HC.

gowales wrote:I've got say i have definitely enjoyed watching the Premiership more than the Pro 12 so far this season. Every game except for ones where Sarries have played i've enjoyed

I remember watching the Bath v Wasps game on Saturday and thinking it knocked anything on offer in the Pro 12 into a cocked hat. And so it went on, the AP has provided some real class this season so far.

beshocked wrote:Gowales Sarries are the most exciting team to watch. What are you on about?

Hersh the HC isn't overrated. Just because Bath aren't taking part.

The HC would be the greatest competition on the planet if the mightiest AP side were in the HC.

I love what Sarries are about and their enterprise but f me they really do know how to suck the life out of a game.

Jimpy wrote:

gowales wrote:I've got say i have definitely enjoyed watching the Premiership more than the Pro 12 so far this season. Every game except for ones where Sarries have played i've enjoyed

I remember watching the Bath v Wasps game on Saturday and thinking it knocked anything on offer in the Pro 12 into a cocked hat. And so it went on, the AP has provided some real class this season so far.

Got to say Eastmond's try was awesome but seriously that's poor tackling! Didn't he beat 8 men?

Has to be one of the tries of the season.

Thought this might spark a few comments, Paul Rees in today's Grauniad:

London Welsh's Premiership struggles open debate over standards

by Paul Rees

After two worrying defeats for London Welsh the game is being forced to look at the thorny issue of the 'merit' of smaller clubs in the Premiership and in European competitions

As London Welsh left the Stoop last Friday night having lost to the champions by 40-3, a scoreline which barely highlighted the difference between the sides, it was tempting to ask whether their battle to secure promotion from the Championship had been worth it.

Initially refused permission for failing to meet the criteria, they won a subsequent appeal on legal grounds. Less than two months before the start of the new season, they were admitted into the Premiership. They started recruiting but found themselves like a shopper going into a store on the last day of the sales; all they were left with was what no one else wanted.

The sales analogy is apposite because with central funding of around £1.5m, London Welsh cannot afford to spend anywhere near the salary cap of virtually three times that. Staying up will prove every bit as difficult as getting into the top flight was, never mind that the last four promoted sides have all survived at least their first season in the Premiership.

Three – Northampton, Leeds and Worcester – knew what to expect. The fourth club was Exeter who, like London Welsh, had never before been in the Premiership; a crucial difference was that the Chiefs had prepared for the ascent, developing their ground, facilities and squad over a number of years. Relegation has so far not been flirted with.

London Welsh look in for a long season after two opening defeats that have seen their conquerors claim try bonus points. They were up against last season's beaten finalists, Leicester, and the team that won the final, Harlequins. The games were only five days apart.

The Exiles' fate will not be decided by how they get on against the top sides, yet there was something in the way they subsided against Harlequins to unsettle even their most sanguine supporters. A thin squad quickly found its breaking point.

The professional game board is this month looking at the minimum standards criteria for clubs aspiring to the Premiership and what needs to change after London Welsh's appeal, not just because it was successful but because part of the clause governing primacy of tenure was ruled by the panel of three QCs to be anti-competitive and outside the law.

What should be under review is not the wording of the criteria with the aim of closing a loophole but the desirability of having a long-winded list of what a promoted club must have and do. The London Welsh appeal panel rejected the club's argument that promotion should be an enshrined principle, an automatic right. Having criteria, it ruled, is necessary but they should be applied equally to those in the Premiership and clubs seeking to get there.

Are the criteria elitist? What lies at the heart of who should be in the Premiership is also driving the bid of the leading clubs in England and France to change the qualification process for the Heineken Cup. Merit is the word they use and, in principle, having the top six teams from the Top 14, Pro12 and Premiership competing for the trophy, along with the holders and the winners of the Amlin Challenge Cup, is fair, but if a consequence is to shrink the boundaries of the game, would it be right?

Premiership Rugby argued when announcing its television deal with BT on Wednesday that it wanted the game in Europe to grow into a third competition that took in teams from smaller unions such as Russia and Spain, but it is not fuelled by altruism as it does battle in Europe. Having outflanked European Rugby Cup Ltd so adroitly, leaving the organisers minus belt and braces, it is now a battle between the clubs of England and France and the unions of the other four countries who cannot afford a devalued Heineken Cup.

Much has been made of the success of Ireland in the Heineken Cup in recent seasons, first Munster and then Leinster: only twice in the last seven seasons has the trophy gone elsewhere, and if the rules were changed so that Ireland no longer had any automatic qualifiers, the pair can expect to be in the top six of the Pro12 for the foreseeable future.

Leinster and Munster are the only two Pro12 teams who attract support most Premiership clubs would be envious of. In the opening two rounds of the respective leagues, excluding the double header at Twickenham, seven sides attracted five-figure gates.

Bath, Gloucester, Harlequins and Northampton drew between 10,438 and 12,550 spectators while Leicester played host to 19,250; more than Exeter, London Irish and London Welsh combined. Leinster and Munster's crowd figure for games that did not involve their leading Irish players were similar, 15,724 compared to 15,642.

Likely casualties if the Heineken Cup rules are changed are Scotland and Italy. Their four professional teams between them could not reach the spectator figures generated by Leinster and Munster on the opening two weekends. How much more difficult would it be to sell rugby in the two countries if the Heineken Cup was not on the menu? How would it affect the recruitment of players?

It may be too simplistic to say that the argument is whether wealth should be concentrated in the hands of a few or shared widely, but the crowd at Harlequins last Friday night were short-changed. The home followers would have been satisfied at a bonus point victory, but it was a match that reflected one side having three times the spending power of the other.

Newcastle, relegated last season, will receive more from Premiership Rugby this season than London Welsh in the form of a parachute payment designed to soften the club's fall. That money is effectively what should be distributed to the Exiles and it is hard not to resist the thought that the whole purpose of the payment is to expedite the return of the demoted side at the expense of the club that replaced it. Given that, Premiership Rugby has little in the way of moral authority when it lays down demands to the rest of Europe.

It is another reason why the criteria should be ripped up. All 12 clubs in the Premiership should have equal opportunity; all the salary cap does is achieve relative parity among the established members of the top flight. The likes of London Welsh are like beggars at a banquet, sneaking past the guards at the door.

Exeter and Worcester have enjoyed extended stays in the Premiership not least because, owning their own grounds, they can bake their own bread rather than rely on crumbs handed down to them. London Welsh are miles from home, fated to return from where they came and all the flowing rugby in the opening two weekends of the Premiership cannot dispel the feeling that there is something rotten at the core.

Asbo

Talk about pouring oil on a fire.

LondonTiger wrote:Asbo

Talk about pouring oil on a fire.

Maybe but you could also say that it is good to read an objective article as most threads on here are favouring one side or the other with little margin.