Whiff of Cordite - How do you solve a problem like Ian

by Mickado Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:35 am

Another cracking blog post from the lads at Whiff of Cordite -

http://whiffofcordite.com/

Saturday night saw another welcome development in the story of the precocious Ian Madigan. Another Man of the Match display in a Pro12 game, and the try he set up for Fionn Carr showcased his luminous talent. He has a fantastic, highly unusual (for Irish rugby) skillset: exceptional passing, breaking skills, eye for the tryline and now, solid place kicking [Aside: should Ferg be worried about this development?]. His weaknesses – game management and kicking from hand - are improving. Yes, we know he hasn’t successfully piloted a game through muck and rain in the style of the man he could potentially replace on the Ireland 22, Radge. Last year he carved up the Pro12 and started his first Heineken Cup game, at home to Montpellier. An international breakthrough seems inevitible this November.

But it’s becoming increasingly difficult to justify sitting him on the bench for the big games, no matter how well Jonny Sexton is playing. It’s getting to the stage where Madigan needs to take the next step in his career – starting Heineken Cup games regularly. WoC has been sniffy about complaints that Madigan ‘isn’t getting enough game time’ in the past, but this season, such is his quality, they will start to become relevant. Some hard decisions will have to be made.

What is Joe to do? He has a settled and successful team on the pitch, the best 10 in Europe, but has a seriously talented younger chap kicking his heels on the bench. He needs to balance the present, the future, and the maximisation of his existing resources. Can he get Madigan into the team, and how? Let’s look at the options:

■Status Quo. In this scenario, Sexton starts the big games and Madigan the Pro12 ones when Deccie says Sexton has a headache. At the very least Madigan will need to be given significant minutes off the bench in Heineken Cup matches.
■Sexton to 12. This was Deccie’s favoured ploy when he didn’t have the balls to drop Rog decided to play O’Gara and Sexton on the same pitch. To be fair, Sexton never looked uncomfortable, but yet, it never struck us as a viable long-term solution, and genuinely appeared as a sop to the bolshy Rog. Still, it fills what is aleady a problem position for Ireland, and is likely to become one for Leinster. Will Sexton, the best 10 in the Heineken Cup for the last two seasons and favourite to wear the Lions 10 jersey, be impressed with being taken out of the slot to accomodate the uncapped Madigan? In a word – no.
■Madigan to 9. This has been floated before, most eloquently by the Mole, but Madigan, unlike Giteau, has never played 9. It’s worth a shot if you feel it’s a genuine long-term option, but Leinster and Ireland are well-served in this specialist position, and it would look like a sticking plaster solution to accommodate both men in one team. And great as Madigan’s distribution is, passing from 10 is not the same as passing (and manging the tempo) from 9.
■Madigan to 12. With Ireland crying out for a silky distributor at 12, could Madigan, effectively, be the new Paddy Wallace? He’d have even more space at 12 than at 10. Ball-in-hand it looks a good fit, but the 12 channel is popoulated by monsters these days and while Madigan is a brave and competent defender, he probably lacks the sheer bulk to play there.
■Madigan to 15. Really? With Bob and Isa Nacewa in the squad? And Andrew Conway as the resident promising youngster? Not a runner.
■Stand Up And Fight. In this scenario, the incumbent (Sexton) gets unceremoniously benched for big games, and Madigan is thrown in to the first team. If Sexton becomes a bench-warmer at Leinster, he won’t be best pleased, and an iHumph-style flounce can’t be ruled out – could Sexy take over Rog’s red and green shirt?
No obvious solution then. No doubt Ian Madigan is aware that he is working with the best coach of backs in Europe, and it’s almost certain that without Joe Schmidt coaching him, Madigan would not be as far in his development as he is. It would be a wrench for him to leave all that behind, but this could be a summer for hard decisions.

Were he to look around, he would not lack for suitors. Both Munster and Ulster would be in the picture. Ulster are crying out for proven quality in the position and nobody knows how Paddy Jackson will go this season, while Niall O’Connor is squad player material. At Munster, the world and its mother knows that a legend is nearing the end of his career, and while Keatley has started this season well, doubts remain as to his ability at the very top level. Last year, you might have argued that Madigan’s skills could wither on the vine at those provinces, but the augurs are good under new coaching regimes. Mads would most likely have offers from abroad too, probably including franchises from the Super XV, to which his game would be tailor-made.

Leinster would surely hate to see such a special talent slip through their fingers. Somehow a way has to be found of getting him the necessary exposure to keep him happy and progressing at a suitable pace. Talent this special is rare indeed.

So what do you think? What's the best way to manage this prodigious talent?

Personally I think the best case scenario (for Ireland and Leinster) is if we can convert him to a 12, which is turning into somewhat a problem position for both teams. I think his defense is up to it.

by Guest Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:43 am

Send him to Connacht

by Mickado Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:47 am

Risca Rev wrote:Send him to Connacht

I'll assume you're being sarcastic Rev! Hug

by red_stag Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:47 am

Personally I would welcome Madigan at 12, Sexton at 12 or Madigan at 9.

I think Madigan at 9 has more merits than a lot of people suggest.

by **rodders** Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:48 am

Send him to Ulster.

by Guest Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:55 am

Mickado wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:Send him to Connacht

I'll assume you're being sarcastic Rev!

In a sense yeah, but then I don't know what his intentions are and whether he wants to remain at ten. I know he isn't necessarily in a position to think like that (given who he is understudying and his age) and don't know whether his mindset would ever wish to set himself up as a ten only.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:56 am

He'd only have to sit behind the maestro Dan Parks on the west coast, Rev Wink

by Mickado Mon Sep 10, 2012 8:59 am

Risca Rev wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:Send him to Connacht

I'll assume you're being sarcastic Rev!

In a sense yeah, but then I don't know what his intentions are and whether he wants to remain at ten. I know he isn't necessarily in a position to think like that (given who he is understudying and his age) and don't know whether his mindset would ever wish to set himself up as a ten only.

That’s a fair point Rev, we don’t know what his intentions are but assuming both he and Sexton are comfortable with whatever changes are asked of them I think he would be better suited to 12.

Think of how effective we are in attack when Sexton plays the loop off Darcy, and they do pretty much the same thing every time i.e. Darcy doesn’t go himself or play a cut out pass, if Madigan was standing in that channel it would become a whole lot harder to defend against.

by **rodders** Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:09 am

I agree with WoC, I think Madigan is too small to play 12. He'd get away with it against some teams but not against the more physical backlines.

Madigan is a 10 who hasn't shown that he's anything other than a 10 whereas Sexton is a 10 who has shown he has the ability, but not the desire, to play 10.

Personally I think moving Madigan would be disasterous at this stage of his development. He's maturing into a top class 10 and needs to stay there and develop his game management, which will only come with playing 10.

Its this Irish thing of shunting young players around to get them on the pitch that is ruining all our young talent. The last thing anyone wants is make him a James Hook/Paddy Wallace type utility back.

The reality is that the two best fly halves in the country are at Leinster and they can't both play at the same time. Thats a pickle but it is what it is man.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:11 am

Mickado wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Mickado wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:Send him to Connacht

I'll assume you're being sarcastic Rev!

In a sense yeah, but then I don't know what his intentions are and whether he wants to remain at ten. I know he isn't necessarily in a position to think like that (given who he is understudying and his age) and don't know whether his mindset would ever wish to set himself up as a ten only.

That’s a fair point Rev, we don’t know what his intentions are but assuming both he and Sexton are comfortable with whatever changes are asked of them I think he would be better suited to 12.

Think of how effective we are in attack when Sexton plays the loop off Darcy, and they do pretty much the same thing every time i.e. Darcy doesn’t go himself or play a cut out pass, if Madigan was standing in that channel it would become a whole lot harder to defend against.

Dan Carter spent a couple of seasons at 12 learning off Mehrtens before stepping up at 10. Well worth a shot for Madigan - especially if he gets the odd Pro12 start at 10 too.

by Kingshu Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:14 am

Would he be a better talent at 12 than Marshall in Ulster or JJ in Munster, if no then from an Ireland viewpoint don't change him to a 12, it would benefit Leinster but not Ireland.

possible should have gone for a years loan to Ulster this year, I would be happy to play him and bring PJ through a little slower. Would be good competation.

To be honest I think he will be happy to stay in Leinster and play in Pro 12 and some H-cup games, Leinster are good at keeping players happy, but I see his gametime increasing and Sextons decreasing, as one starts and the other subbed on.

by red_stag Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:18 am

Best case scenario:

Sexton goes to play for Clermont / Toulouse / Saracens etc. Madigan is first choice at Leinster and a new player is chomping at his heels.

by **rodders** Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:23 am

I agree actually Stag.

by **rodders** Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:25 am

Actually no best scenario is Sexton moves to Ulster and ROG to Connacht...... Smile

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:29 am

I guess that the important thing is that if either he or sexton do agree to move position that Leinster and the IRFU make sure that it is a perminent move and not a case of shufting him from one shirt to another.

by Rava Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:35 am

All joking aside, there must be a way to allow him to continue his progression. Changing to 12 may be an option but is short term IMO.

I think the real question is "Is he a better 10 than Sexton?" If he is then the answer is simple. He should be playing 10 for both Leinster and Ireland.

by Mickado Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:50 am

Rava wrote:All joking aside, there must be a way to allow him to continue his progression. Changing to 12 may be an option but is short term IMO.

I think the real question is "Is he a better 10 than Sexton?" If he is then the answer is simple. He should be playing 10 for both Leinster and Ireland.

The answer is not yet, but he could be as good as Sexton, maybe even better. Where does that leave us? There's much more fluidity in other nations in terms of changing positions, in Ireland it's seen as jerking a player around, but in Australia or New Zeland, France or South Africa it's not as much of a problem.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:03 am

Mickado wrote:
Rava wrote:All joking aside, there must be a way to allow him to continue his progression. Changing to 12 may be an option but is short term IMO.

I think the real question is "Is he a better 10 than Sexton?" If he is then the answer is simple. He should be playing 10 for both Leinster and Ireland.

The answer is not yet, but he could be as good as Sexton, maybe even better. Where does that leave us? There's much more fluidity in other nations in terms of changing positions, in Ireland it's seen as jerking a player around, but in Australia or New Zeland, France or South Africa it's not as much of a problem.

I think the thing to remember is that Madignan is starting to get more and more game time at ten, and will probably be considered highly amongst the replacements for inside centre. So do you need to do anything? Surely it is a blessing to have two top quality fly halves who will be competing with each other for the shirt. I have no doubt that if Madigan shows up well that Sexton will not be certain of his starting place in the HEC games.

I think it will probably end up a case of horses for course and if the game plan is better suited to one player then he will start and if the game play suits the otehr that player will start instead.

by Rava Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:04 am

Well I do agree he is a good player but I wouldn't be jumping to make career changing decisions two games into the new season. These things have a habit of finding their own level. Look at Sexton himself!
It's healthy for Leinster though Sad

by **rodders** Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:16 am

I think it is a problem for Australia. They have lots of versatile players but aren't a great side and have struggled to produce a top class 10 since Larkham, who was himself a converted full back.

Australia also play a much less structured game than us and in France its the 9 who is the main play maker so they aren't great templates of how things should be done.

Carter and Wilkinson were bedded in at 12 but in my opinion Madigan doesn't need bedded in,he's a natural descision maker already, what he needs is experience at 10.

by Sin é Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:50 am

I don't think Leinster have to think about the situation too much. What will happen is that Sexton will pick up a knock and Madigan will get a chance to start in a big game and then Leinster will find out what he is actually made of.

It will be interesting to see how Sexton handles the pressure of someone breathing down his neck.

by Feckless Rogue Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:24 pm

12 is a problem position. So I'd move one of them there. Which position would suite Madigan more? I'd say Sexton could play either to a high standard.

Is Madigan big enough for test rugby? How would he deal with the big test rugby giants like Rougerie and Roberts? I know he's brave in defence but he's quite small.

by Mickado Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:22 am

He's bigger than Aaron Cruden. Granted he plays at out half.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:58 am

I think there is a lot to be said for the dan carter johnny wilkinson idea. I think it may be a good thing for madigan to just get game time in the big games and if that means playing 12 for 60mins then moving to 10 then that is what he should do. He will gain extra strings to his bow from playing at 12 and become more rounded and it's not as if he and sexton will play that many games together anyway. Most likely the big pro12 matches and the hcup. Still leaves madigan at 10 for a lot of the season.

If you look really critically though, who would be better at 12 sexton or Madigan?

by Mickado Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:48 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think there is a lot to be said for the dan carter johnny wilkinson idea. I think it may be a good thing for madigan to just get game time in the big games and if that means playing 12 for 60mins then moving to 10 then that is what he should do. He will gain extra strings to his bow from playing at 12 and become more rounded and it's not as if he and sexton will play that many games together anyway. Most likely the big pro12 matches and the hcup. Still leaves madigan at 10 for a lot of the season.

If you look really critically though, who would be better at 12 sexton or Madigan?

I think Madigan would be an exceptional 12. Slick passing, an eye for a gap, pace, accurate distribution, solid front on tackler, a good kicker from hand (and getting better all the time). In fact, if you list out all of the things he's very good at right now, on paper he would appear to be a 12 playing 10 IMO.

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:01 am

It's much harder to get an international quality 10 than a 12 I think.

A 12 can be something of a journeyman who can be more limited in skillset provided he doesn't substantially prejudice the attacking blade of the team as a whole. A 10 can't. Trust me. I'm a Scotland fan.

IM would be wasted at 12 and he looks like too much of a talent to do that to. The best thing for the club would certainly be to start him as inside centre but the best thing for Ireland by far would be to sell Sexton to the highest bidder and let IM continue as he is as the incumbent.

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:12 am

George Carlin wrote:It's much harder to get an international quality 10 than a 12 I think.

A 12 can be something of a journeyman who can be more limited in skillset provided he doesn't substantially prejudice the attacking blade of the team as a whole. A 10 can't. Trust me. I'm a Scotland fan.

IM would be wasted at 10 and he looks like too much of a talent to do that to. The best thing for the club would certainly be to start him as inside centre but the best thing for Ireland by far would be to sell Sexton to the highest bidder and let IM continue as he is as the incumbent.

Totally agree George. A few seasons ago Ireland had only one 10 available. It would be madness to try and convert the second best fly-half in the country into a 12. Madigan needs to continue to develop his game management, which he can't do at 12, expecially not with Sexton inside him.

Jonny Wilkinson was a teenager, in his first season when he was bedded in at 12. Madigan is a 23 year old in his second season and a move to 12 would badly stunt his development at a time when Ireland need to be finding a replacement to O'Gara and building depth at 10.

From a Leinster perspective I understand why people want Madigan and Sexton on the field at the same time, but for Ireland and Madigan it would be a really bad move I think.

Sexton has looked really good at 12, in fact he looked superb at 13 in NZ but he clearly doesn't want to play there and again from an Ireland perspective we need him as a 10 as well.

That said if Paddy Jackson continues to develop and Keatley can nail down the 10 shirt at Munster, with JJ on the horizon maybe Sextons long term future could be at 12.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:14 am

Mickado wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I think there is a lot to be said for the dan carter johnny wilkinson idea. I think it may be a good thing for madigan to just get game time in the big games and if that means playing 12 for 60mins then moving to 10 then that is what he should do. He will gain extra strings to his bow from playing at 12 and become more rounded and it's not as if he and sexton will play that many games together anyway. Most likely the big pro12 matches and the hcup. Still leaves madigan at 10 for a lot of the season.

If you look really critically though, who would be better at 12 sexton or Madigan?

I think Madigan would be an exceptional 12. Slick passing, an eye for a gap, pace, accurate distribution, solid front on tackler, a good kicker from hand (and getting better all the time). In fact, if you list out all of the things he's very good at right now, on paper he would appear to be a 12 playing 10 IMO.

Mick mo chara,

Aontaim Leat go h-iomlán!
Another thing about madigan is he tackles seriously low. He doesn't generally go high.

The one thing you would need with a Sexton-Madigan combo would be a hard running 13, not a bosh merchant but someone physical much like Adam Ashley cooper, Jean de villiers or................

for Ireland, Tommy Bowe...

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:18 am

rodders wrote:
George Carlin wrote:It's much harder to get an international quality 10 than a 12 I think.

A 12 can be something of a journeyman who can be more limited in skillset provided he doesn't substantially prejudice the attacking blade of the team as a whole. A 10 can't. Trust me. I'm a Scotland fan.

IM would be wasted at 10 and he looks like too much of a talent to do that to. The best thing for the club would certainly be to start him as inside centre but the best thing for Ireland by far would be to sell Sexton to the highest bidder and let IM continue as he is as the incumbent.

Totally agree George. A few seasons ago Ireland had only one 10 available. It would be madness to try and convert the second best fly-half in the country into a 12. Madigan needs to continue to develop his game management, which he can't do at 12, expecially not with Sexton inside him.

Sorry - I did, of course, mean "wasted at 12" rather than 10 - glad you got the spirit of it, Rodders.

by BoyneRFC Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:21 am

9. Murray
11. Luke
10. Madigan
12. Sexton
13. Bowe
14. Earls
15. Kearney

????

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:22 am

I would add that the challenge from Madigan seems to be bringing out the very best in Sexton, so its a good problem for Leinster to have guinness

.

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:24 am

BoyneRFC wrote:
9. Murray
11. Luke
10. Madigan
12. Sexton
13. Bowe
14. ~~Earls~~ Gilroy
15. Kearney

????

That would be superb Boyne thumbsup

by Mickado Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:30 am

rodders wrote:
George Carlin wrote:It's much harder to get an international quality 10 than a 12 I think.

A 12 can be something of a journeyman who can be more limited in skillset provided he doesn't substantially prejudice the attacking blade of the team as a whole. A 10 can't. Trust me. I'm a Scotland fan.
IM would be wasted at 10 and he looks like too much of a talent to do that to. The best thing for the club would certainly be to start him as inside centre but the best thing for Ireland by far would be to sell Sexton to the highest bidder and let IM continue as he is as the incumbent.

Totally agree George. A few seasons ago Ireland had only one 10 available. It would be madness to try and convert the second best fly-half in the country into a 12. Madigan needs to continue to develop his game management, which he can't do at 12, expecially not with Sexton inside him.

Jonny Wilkinson was a teenager, in his first season when he was bedded in at 12. Madigan is a 23 year old in his second season and a move to 12 would badly stunt his development at a time when Ireland need to be finding a replacement to O'Gara and building depth at 10.

From a Leinster perspective I understand why people want Madigan and Sexton on the field at the same time, but for Ireland and Madigan it would be a really bad move I think.

Sexton has looked really good at 12, in fact he looked superb at 13 in NZ but he clearly doesn't want to play there and again from an Ireland perspective we need him as a 10 as well.

That said if Paddy Jackson continues to develop and Keatley can nail down the 10 shirt at Munster, with JJ on the horizon maybe Sextons long term future could be at 12.

I appreciate where you're coming from George but a 12 could also be every bit as important as the 10 to how the team play. Think Larkham and Horan of the 99 Wallabies.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:50 am

Could people see the pair mixing it up during games sometimes one at 10 sometimes at 12 and same with the other player. Could make us very unpredictable off set piece. Both can attack the line and beat guys/make yards and both can distribute really well. The cOmbination of the two of them the one at first reciever not necessarily wearing 10 could be a nightmare for defences since it could be either a run play or a passing play and from different areas of the field (9-10 channel and 10-12 channel).

Murray-sexton
Madigan-Bowe
Fitz-Kearney-gilroy

Reddan-mcfadden-earls

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:25 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Could people see the pair mixing it up during games sometimes one at 10 sometimes at 12 and same with the other player.

At Leinster, yup, for sure that could work.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:35 am

rodders wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Could people see the pair mixing it up during games sometimes one at 10 sometimes at 12 and same with the other player.

At Leinster, yup, for sure that could work.

You wouldn't see that happening at Irish level?

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 5:52 am

Not really. I think at national level you need to put square pegs in square holes as players don't train together with the same frequency. You need to be a bit more structured and orthodox I think. Defensively patterns need to be even tighter as well and Ireland do more defending than Leinster as at the top level our pack is less dominant.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I'd see it more as something Leinster could experiment with more than Ireland.

Also, for the record, I don't think Madigan has the tools to play 12 at International level. Paddy Wallace was too small and I believe Madigan is too. You don't want a guy like Madigan making 15 odd tackles, or more, a match, that is nonsensical in my opinion.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:04 am

rodders wrote:Not really. I think at national level you need to put square pegs in square holes as players don't train together with the same frequency. You need to be a bit more structured and orthodox I think. Defensively patterns need to be even tighter as well and Ireland do more defending than Leinster as at the top level our pack is less dominant.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work but I'd see it more as something Leinster could experiment with more than Ireland.

Also, for the record, I don't think Madigan has the tools to play 12 at International level. Paddy Wallace was too small and I believe Madigan is too. You don't want a guy like Madigan making 15 odd tackles, or more, a match, that is nonsensical in my opinion.

Fair enough point Rodders.
If Sexton and Madigan were starting together in the big HCup games for Leinster and it was working should Ireland not try to use that tried and tested combination? I agree re: defensively Ireland do a lot more than Leinster and Madigan is small. I think Wallace's defence has improved hugely over the last 2 years tbh and if Madigan (who tackles much lower than Wallace) can bring down the big guys in the HCup then I'd be more than happy to see him in Green.

Further more you could have Madigan attacking from 12 but defending at 10. That is a very simple option and has been used a lot by other nations.

Finally, I think the square pegs in square holes while a valid argument has to be taken to certain degrees and not further. For instance Adam Ashley Cooper did some great stuff at 13 this weekend but we all know he can play 15 very well and isn't a bad winger. Medard is equally at home at 15 as he is at 11. Pienaar is a very good 10 even if he is an outstanding 9. I totally accept what you are saying and there are players it doesn't work for (Luke Fitz, Earls, Bergamasco! Whistle

) but Madigan has played outside Sexton before and it went well.

Would you be more open to
10. Madigan
12. Sexton

?

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:40 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Would you be more open to
10. Madigan
12. Sexton
?

Looking at the two that seems a more logical unit to me. Sexton really impressed me against NZ playing outside BOD.

I categorically believe Sexton to be the best fly-half in Europe but he does have his ups and downs, and when he's slotted into the Irish system and been asked to play a bit more conservatively and with slower ball he hasn't looked as good. He also has the size and pace to play in the centre.

I'm not saying it should happen, and it mightened work but I'd be interested to see what would happen if Sexton was made captain and moved to to 12, with Madigan inside him for club and country.

by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 11, 2012 6:44 am

Let them fight it out- split the matches and see who fares best across the season. If it's Madigan, play Sexton at 12

by SecretFly Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:00 am

Madigan 10
Sexton 10

They are both 10s who bring their own individuality to the role and they both add quality to the overall team in doing so.

I don't believe in this idea that just because they are both good, one of them should change roles. Madigan is a 10 and so is Sexton and Joe uses each of them effectively. Don't play around simply because you might have a bout of greed. Let's find our 12s from other sources and leave the quality area of 10 alone.

You might as well say let Boss try 12 as we've already got our quality 9 in Redden. Redden does his thing at 9, Boss does his and Joe has used their various characteristics effectively in the past.

Madigan doesn't have to always be on the pitch, anymore than Sexton does. Madigan playing in his games allows Sexton to sit in the crowd (enforced by IRFU or not) and that situation might turn round in the future.

Saying either Sexton or Madigan could move to 12 is like saying the number 10 is an unimportant position - as in the event of injury or forced layoffs, a non-descript understudy can always take over effectively enough. Nope, he can't - we have our 10 understudy and we're just lucky enough that he's much better than non-descript. Don't fix what isn't broken. 12 is, certainly in my opinion, a discussion for another bunch of players.

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:01 am

Mickado wrote:
rodders wrote:
George Carlin wrote:It's much harder to get an international quality 10 than a 12 I think.

A 12 can be something of a journeyman who can be more limited in skillset provided he doesn't substantially prejudice the attacking blade of the team as a whole. A 10 can't. Trust me. I'm a Scotland fan.
IM would be wasted at 10 and he looks like too much of a talent to do that to. The best thing for the club would certainly be to start him as inside centre but the best thing for Ireland by far would be to sell Sexton to the highest bidder and let IM continue as he is as the incumbent.

Totally agree George. A few seasons ago Ireland had only one 10 available. It would be madness to try and convert the second best fly-half in the country into a 12. Madigan needs to continue to develop his game management, which he can't do at 12, expecially not with Sexton inside him.

Jonny Wilkinson was a teenager, in his first season when he was bedded in at 12. Madigan is a 23 year old in his second season and a move to 12 would badly stunt his development at a time when Ireland need to be finding a replacement to O'Gara and building depth at 10.

From a Leinster perspective I understand why people want Madigan and Sexton on the field at the same time, but for Ireland and Madigan it would be a really bad move I think.

Sexton has looked really good at 12, in fact he looked superb at 13 in NZ but he clearly doesn't want to play there and again from an Ireland perspective we need him as a 10 as well.

That said if Paddy Jackson continues to develop and Keatley can nail down the 10 shirt at Munster, with JJ on the horizon maybe Sextons long term future could be at 12.

I appreciate where you're coming from George but a 12 could also be every bit as important as the 10 to how the team play. Think Larkham and Horan of the 99 Wallabies.

Absolutely Mickado and most fans would want quality in both positions.

All I'm saying is that you could only have one world class player and one competent internationalist in each shirt, then most fans would plump for quality at 10 as that is traditionally the more influential position. Look at France for example - I think that a sparkling talent like Fofana is not being best served by the current series of Frence 10s.

I agree that all truly great teams have a John-Gibson, Lynagh-Horan, Carter-Nonu distribution channel.

by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:03 am

But if you have two, and one of the players can play at an International level at 12, then is it not best to utilise both in the same team?

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:03 am

Fly - I totally agree. Leinster are doing pretty well in ensuring that they have two quality player in most positions, so it would not make sense to shuffle one of their quality fly halves else where.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:09 am

rodders wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Would you be more open to
10. Madigan
12. Sexton
?

Looking at the two that seems a more logical unit to me. Sexton really impressed me against NZ playing outside BOD.

I categorically believe Sexton to be the best fly-half in Europe but he does have his ups and downs, and when he's slotted into the Irish system and been asked to play a bit more conservatively and with slower ball he hasn't looked as good. He also has the size and pace to play in the centre.

I'm not saying it should happen, and it mightened work but I'd be interested to see what would happen if Sexton was made captain and moved to to 12, with Madigan inside him for club and country.

Wow you'd give him the captaincy too!? Things just got interesting! You wouldn't give it to Kearney, Healip, POC, Ryan, Best?

I amn't sure if Sexton has the ability to break the line as much as Madigan does which would be my main worry about him at 12 I guess. He finds lines for others not sure how great he'd be at running them himself. I suppose he must be good due to all those loops etc Laugh

maybe I just need to see him do it, I'm sure there are many examples of him cutting a good line and making yards

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:11 am

Good point secretfly. But don't spoil the game man, enough with your killjoy attitude Smile

.

by **rodders** Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:13 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Wow you'd give him the captaincy too!? Things just got interesting! You wouldn't give it to Kearney, Healip, POC, Ryan, Best?

Yeah Sin e said he was a bit of a prima donna (well actually he said he was a psycho who tried to kill Mafi Shocked

) so I thought making him captain might sweeten the move to 12 Smile

.....

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:15 am

SecretFly wrote:Madigan 10
Sexton 10

They are both 10s who bring their own individuality to the role and they both add quality to the overall team in doing so.

I don't believe in this idea that just because they are both good, one of them should change roles. Madigan is a 10 and so is Sexton and Joe uses each of them effectively. Don't play around simply because you might have a bout of greed. Let's find our 12s from other sources and leave the quality area of 10 alone.

You might as well say let Boss try 12 as we've already got our quality 9 in Redden. Redden does his thing at 9, Boss does his and Joe has used their various characteristics effectively in the past.

Madigan doesn't have to always be on the pitch, anymore than Sexton does. Madigan playing in his games allows Sexton to sit in the crowd (enforced by IRFU or not) and that situation might turn round in the future.

Saying either Sexton or Madigan could move to 12 is like saying the number 10 is an unimportant position - as in the event of injury or forced layoffs, a non-descript understudy can always take over effectively enough. Nope, he can't - we have our 10 understudy and we're just lucky enough that he's much better than non-descript. Don't fix what isn't broken. 12 is, certainly in my opinion, a discussion for another bunch of players.

If neither were labelled a 10, would Sexton and/or Madigan be considered as the best (or pretty close to the best) 12 in Leinster and/or Munster.
It isn't as if they are never going to play 10 either. For instance how many games would Madigan and Sexton actually play together? The HCup games and some big Rabo ones. When they aren't playing in the same team they will start at 10 individually. One of them will always be the 10 I think and I think they will both play more games at 10 than at 12

by SecretFly Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:15 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:But if you have two, and one of the players can play at an International level at 12, then is it not best to utilise both in the same team?

Chequered, I personally think the only reason we see Sexton as an effective International level 12 is, to put it bluntly, because we see little of his International level flyhalf quality in an Ireland shirt. Therefore, we tend to jump the gun and say "why doesn't he just move over to 12 and let Madigan have a go at 10.

Hmmm, my take always on that one is that under current conditions, if Madigan goes to 10 at International, he'll show the very same impotency as Sexton shows at International level. The problem is the coaching...or total lack thereof, not Sexton. Sexton and the Irish team need a team of coaches that will begin to coach to his and their strengths, and in that scenario, we'll have two 10s able (when called) to do what they do best

by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:19 am

SecretFly wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:But if you have two, and one of the players can play at an International level at 12, then is it not best to utilise both in the same team?

Chequered, I personally think the only reason we see Sexton as an effective International level 12 is, to put it bluntly, because we see little of his International level flyhalf quality in an Ireland shirt. Therefore, we tend to jump the gun and say "why doesn't he just move over to 12 and let Madigan have a go at 10.

Hmmm, my take always on that one is that under current conditions, if Madigan goes to 10 at International, he'll show the very same impotency as Sexton shows at International level. The problem is the coaching...or total lack thereof, not Sexton. Sexton and the Irish team need a team of coaches that will begin to coach to his and their strengths, and in that scenario, we'll have two 10s able (when called) to do what they do best

So you are saying fire Kidney first then see where you get with a decent coach?

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