How useful is the Anglo-Welsh Cup and should it continue?

For those not familiar with this cup competition, either north of Hadrian's Wall, across the Irish Sea, or further afield, it is a pool stage followed by knock-out cup competition featuring the twelve Aviva Premiership clubs and four Welsh Regions.

Starting in the early seventies as an RFU club competition, it has changed its name a number of times over the decades - largely due to sponsors - John Player Cup, Pilkington Cup and the Powergen Cup.

In 2005, the format changed so that it only included English Premiership sides, and the Welsh regional sides were invited in (resulting in a lot of spluttering into Irish and Scottish beer glasses and threats of the Welsh clubs being expelled from the Celtic League.)

[Edit correction] 16 teams play in a pool format (3 English and 1 Welsh in each pool). Teams in Pool 1 play teams in Pool 4, and teams in Pool 2 play teams in Pool 3.

Each team plays four pool matches - two home and two away - with the top team from each pool qualifying for the semi-finals.

Since 2006, there have been four Anglo-Welsh finals, but the last three have been all-English affairs.

More recent English domination might be explained by the English clubs simply being better than their Welsh counterparts. But an added factor, is that the winner of the cup initially gave an extra European spot to the Welsh clubs, and one of the 6 English ones was also assigned to it. Over the last few seasons, however, with changes to HC qualification, only the English teams now benefit. They've an extra incentive to win.

The Premiership league each year has four teams chasing four playoff places similar to the Pro 12 league. Those four playoff places also guarantee HC qualification. The fifth spot is reserved for the winner of Anglo-Welsh Cup (as long as they're an English club). One spot remains for those 4-5 clubs not good enough to get into the playoffs but not involved in the relegation squabble either.

For the English clubs, the European spot is quite a prize. Saints, Gloucester and Tigers have been the last three winners. Except, those same teams all managed to be in the playoffs in those seasons, thus allowing the Premiership 6th placed team into the H Cup.

From some of the line-ups in the matches over the last few seasons, the competition seems to serve as a useful competition for the second-string players in squads. On occasion, a few of the bigger names are brought out for a critical match.

It's not clear how much value the Welsh clubs place on the competition, beyond the obvious of winning the cup (and beating some English teams on the way, no doubt.)

With the proposed changes being put forward by the English and French unions for the European Competitions from 2014, who are insisting on the top 6 only from each league, presumably the carrot of a European place will no longer allowed for the Anglo-Welsh Cup.

Once its current sponsors run is complete, is there a future for the competition, or does it need to move down the ranks?

It will probably survive because of the guaranteed 2 home matches.

Personally I would rather return to having a genuine national cup.

It's not knockout. It has a weird pool system.

Good for playing 2nd/3rd string teams.

From memory, teams play teams from a different pool? Am not a fan, but as beshocked says, it's good for getting squad players valuable game time

I don't think it's ever given the Welsh a spot in the HEC (certainly not an extra spot).

It's good having a short competition that is played during the internationals. Whether it includes to the Welsh or not, I don't really care. Nor the format

In its first incarnation as the EDF Cup with BBC coverage it was a real cash cow for the clubs, having been sold as the popular and prestigious Pilkington Cup with added Anglo-Welsh spice. Money even trickled down the Leagues whose teams competed for the EDF Trophy, and two other cups for junior clubs.

It didn't take too long for the clubs to prioritise the League over the Cup, especially in the pool stages, and when the sponsorship/TV deals ended, so did most of the cash. The LV sponsorship and TV rights now earn a relative pittance.

There is a place for it as a halfway house between the A league and AP for blooding players. The moneymen probably tolerate it because they can still charge full whack, although attendances are probably 1/2 to 2/3 of AP games.

There was a bit of a power struggle when the cash cow ended - the EDF weekends effectively belong to the RFU, while the AP weekends belong to PRL. PRL made a grab for the extra weekends, proposing a 14 team league, amongst other options, which were rebuffed by RFU.

The introduction of the English winners gaining an HC place is fairly recent, I think, an attempt to bolster interest in the competition amongst the clubs. It's only usually relevant for those in the knockout stages. The recent format of the pool stages were the brainchild of the same RFU employee who foisted the RFU Championship format and the unpopular B&I Cup upon us. Last I heard he was working for RWC2015 Ltd, which doesn't bode well.

It's time has gone but it still stutters on, and does give useful opportunities for fringe/academy players, and for resting front rank players.

In my mind, it would be much better being replaced, along with the B&I Cup, with a domestic English club competition, including all the clubs in the Nationals. Perhaps a progressive knockout at first, then a pool stage with Prem clubs taking on, say, the last 8 of the knock-out rounds. There would certainly be added bite for the lower teams and it would be great to see the likes of Leicester (shorn of international players during IW's) turning up at The Mennaye or Castle Park.

Dubbya,

In my mind, it would be much better being replaced, along with the B&I Cup, with a domestic English club competition, In my mind, it would be much better being replaced, along with the B&I Cup, with a domestic English club competition, including all the clubs in the Nationals

I think that one of the reasons for dropping most teams from the cup was the danger of injury to relatively junior front rows whenever they were pitted up against top division opposition.

But I'd join the chorus of those arguing for an English Jeff/Championship Cup to provide development experience.

The current LV pool system is the bizarre product of a fevered brain.

I think it should be mandated that teams/regions have to play a % of youth/development players in these games and they are the only games that should be played during the 6 Nations

Portnoy wrote:The current LV pool system is the bizarre product of a fevered brain.

It was the only way the could have 16 teams with each of them getting 2 home matches. It does seem illogical though that in theory you could lose every match yest still make it to the semi finals.

Portnoy wrote:Dubbya,

In my mind, it would be much better being replaced, along with the B&I Cup, with a domestic English club competition, In my mind, it would be much better being replaced, along with the B&I Cup, with a domestic English club competition, including all the clubs in the Nationals

I think that one of the reasons for dropping most teams from the cup was the danger of injury to relatively junior front rows whenever they were pitted up against top division opposition.
But I'd join the chorus of those arguing for an English Jeff/Championship Cup to provide development experience.

The current LV pool system is the bizarre product of a fevered brain.

I can see the point with Prem v National 3 level, but the same argument seems to have been used ad nauseam as propaganda to prevent Tier 1 teams from having to play Tier 2, which PRL may have perceived to be insufficiently moneymaking.

However, if there are a couple of knockout rounds for Nationals 2 and 3, then another with National 1, and a couple with Champ teams added, that should filter out the poorest players before taking on the Prem. Then, 20 teams in 4 pools gives the same 2 home games as the current pool structure.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think it should be mandated that teams/regions have to play a % of youth/development players in these games and they are the only games that should be played during the 6 Nations

Why? (the youth bit)

I like the competition, it's a good way of generating revenue through extra games and giving squad and academy players exposure.

A lot of your teams stars of tomorrow will be be cutting their teeth in the LV Cup today.

Finally it's also nice to see Welsh teams playing English ones. I look forward to the games.

Shifty wrote:I like the competition, it's a good way of generating revenue through extra games and giving squad and academy players exposure.

A lot of your teams stars of tomorrow will be be cutting their teeth in the LV Cup today.

Finally it's also nice to see Welsh teams playing English ones. I look forward to the games.

Me too. Always have (only starting watching the cup when the Welsh teams were added).

More opinions on the matter here...!

https://www.606v2.com/t33763-why-do-so-many-posters-want-to-end-the-lv-cup

For the development of players, I think the BandI cup does a good job, and the Welsh regions would benifit playing 'A' teams in it rather than Welsh prem teams.

If English prem teams also entered 'A' teams it could be a useful competation.

ok The LV cup has two less than capacity home games, but for player development BandI cup would have more games, but with lower crowds (these move about the provinces and I'm sure same could be done for regions.

I'd say with more home games with lower crowds the profit would be the same (and team plays in areas main team can't), plus more games to develop players.

I think the BandI cup is successful as it is in its current format for the welsh premiership clubs.

It serves the diehard prem supporters rather than the regional guys.

maestegmafia wrote:I think the BandI cup is successful as it is in its current format for the welsh premiership clubs.

It serves the diehard prem supporters rather than the regional guys.

+1 regarding the English Championship sides. I think most Premiership sides are relatively happy with the LV as a development tool. Their 'A' league is being cut so that it only runs until Christmas as well. So I can't see them wanting to increase the number of A teams.