BT buy Premiership rights from next season

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http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/20493.php#.UFBpfLKPV5B


Another subscription to pay by the sounds of it. If Sky are losing the rights though, it'll mean no more Barnes

The French wanted more teams, now they can have 8 spaces and the Rabo the other 8. Sorted thanks to England for sorting that out!

Seriously though it will be an interesting 12 months. I guess the French have now become the prettiest girl at the dance with everyone vying for their attention. What happens now will be up to them.

Hammer surprised you have the interweb in Hull.

Just joking bud.

I'd expect the French clubs to go for the most profitable option. The choices are the Sky deal and playing the Rabo sides, or selling their own TV rights, and playing the English and anyone else who can be convinced to join the new competition.

Shifty wrote:The French wanted more teams, now they can have 8 spaces and the Rabo the other 8. Sorted thanks to England for sorting that out!

Seriously though it will be an interesting 12 months. I guess the French have now become the prettiest girl at the dance with everyone vying for their attention. What happens now will be up to them.

+1 always liked French girls.

Seriously think they might have used PRL as a bait and play in this and the inexperienced PRL management have fallen for it. Expect RFU to step into the game with conciliatory words once the negotiations start.

So even though English and French clubs interests are clearly more closely aligned than French and Rabo interests, you think the French clubs will side with the Rabo teams? This would shatter their relationship with the AP sides and basically wreck their own negotiating position with Rabo sides in future by cutting them off from their natural allies. They also still be stuck playing Irish sides who they feel unfairly rest players and who play sides with nothing to play for in the build up to crunch European games - which was one of their opening complaints.

Seems a strange move to me.

Bait for what? I'm confused about what people think is going on here.

Possibilities, PRL/BT idea goes down well, reasonable concessions are asked for and given in terms of structure and European rugby goes on with a minor tweak.

French clubs are happy with the deal made with BT and they and the PRL ask more than the Celtic/Italian unions are willing to give and they break to form Anglo-French Cup.

French just turn their back on European rugby and expand the T14 to T18 and play with themselves. The PRO12 stand up and just have the RABO, maybe the RABO cup. May end up selling out to Sky for HEC money, may not. PRL are on their own, may set up their own English cup, may try and get some other Europeans involved in an LV Equivalent Cup.

French decide to make a deal with the Celtic/Italian unions and leave the PRL in the cold.

Of all of those options, the last is the least likely.

I think the 2 realistic scenarios are French go and play their own league, or ERC make an improved offer to them. Either way I see PRL out in the cold.

By the ERC due you mean the Celtic/Italian unions? What do they have to offer? The Sky deal included the English teams, so that's null and void if the PRL aren't in. Other than that what do they offer that the PRL doesn't (other than the best teams in Europe of course)?

Do you honestly think deep down that Sky will offer anywhere near as much for the games without the English?

Most likely event, HEC continues with some concessions made to the French proposal. Second most likely, the Celts refuse and a Franglo cup is born, probably with an option of expanding it in future years. Not sure how the RABO deal works, whether individual unions can do what they want. The regions without a doubt would want to join in with the English and French but the WRU wouldn't allow it unless all the money went to them.

Least likely is everyone splits and no European rugby happens.

There is no chance of the French and RABO teams forming a competition alone. It simply makes no sense whatsoever.

Regarding the PRL, the BT deal is an increase of 50% on their previous deal. Supposedly the Premiership is 80% of their income. So even if it's just the Premiership you're talking 120% of their previous total. So I think they're fine.

RFU have kept their powder dry, as most good negotiators do, let's see where they fall once the bullets start flying.

I'm not sure why the RFU would care that much to be honest. So long as the clubs are playing plenty of English players and England have access to them then what is there for them to die in a ditch for exactly?

justified sinner wrote:I think the 2 realistic scenarios are French go and play their own league, or ERC make an improved offer to them. Either way I see PRL out in the cold.

But why do you see this as the realistic scenarios? In the second the French are just giving money away by not playing the English clubs, with the TV money and sponsor pleasing exposure that would bring. In the latter the French, who were unhappy with the Rabo clubs taking so much TV money out and with Rabo clubs finding it so easy to qualify would be stuck playing Rabo clubs and would have alienated their natural allies - natural allies who bring lots of money to the table.

I reckon Hammer has it right. Either the Rabo clubs will concede a fair amount of ground (although I don't know how the ERC get out of the 'exclusive' Sky deal - BT are here to stay - presumably they'd have to renegotiate), or it will be Anglo-French plus friends, on the terms set out by the English and French clubs.

if the PRL pull out after 2014 the championship clubs will put pressure on the RFU to enter them in the cup sky and Heineken might not pay as much but for championship clubs to get more games on sky to show of there own sponsors and a slice of the ERC money they could grow there teams pretty quick

Do you reckon Sky would give much at all for the Championship sides? They own the rights to the championship as it is and hardly show any games.

Also this is still dependent on the French joining forces with the PRO12 teams. They were the ones who started all this. People seem to be praying and hoping the French will be fickle in this.

I don't think the Championship sides are ready or able to do that. In playing resources, stadiums and financial worth to the competition they just don't look credible to me.

Still, if it did I suppose there would be some benefit to the wider English game and to some of the strong Championship sides. This would see the Championship sides playing the Rabo teams (a glorified B&I Cup), and the French playing the AP sides.

I'm kinda glad the negotiations wasn't left to us guys on 606!!!

Not much compromise in our moods or initial thoughts. God help the real boardroom men!

HammerofThunor wrote:Do you reckon Sky would give much at all for the Championship sides? They own the rights to the championship as it is and hardly show any games.

Also this is still dependent on the French joining forces with the PRO12 teams. They were the ones who started all this. People seem to be praying and hoping the French will be fickle in this.

Thats why I said they would not pay as much, also sky and Heineken have already indicated they will still work with the ERC after 2014 PRL or no PRL, if the LNR leave then the FFR can put there lower league clubs in aswell.

so there could still be a european cup just have to build it up again but sky seem willing to do this

So let's lull on the existence of two European competitions then..one Sky/ERC and one BT..................

Now wouldn't that be a juicy little prospect for an end of year link-up final - best faces best for real European title?

Some people don't like this thought around these parts, but I do. A final yearly decision to elect the Best side in Europe. Would both title holders be willing to meet?

Yeah, I'm coming round slowly, maybe the French/English competition should be allowed go ahead.

Im glad i can be worried about this and not other serious matters in the world. Really hope this can be sorted out reasonably and isnt the start of the end(i.e it turns into football) cos then i dont think i will watch top flight rugby again. Lets be honest the Rabo teams are sunk without the Eng&Fren money and if there is a complete breakdown then all of our best players will leave and we will probably produce less talent in the future.
I actually dont understand whats happening(no business or legal brain)Thanks for you guys for making a bit more sense of things for me but im still pretty clueless. Will just have to wait and see what transpires then draw my battlelines. Night all.

[EDIT: directed at SecretFly's comment on us negotiating, not KingJohn's post above)

I expect there will be some minor changes to the structure to please the French, the TV stuff will be released to the individual unions and a switch to BT. Other than that I don't think much will change.

allyt2k, that deal was for the full HEC and ACC. If the teams involved change they won't have the same deal. They may do a deal but it will be no-where near as valuable.

SecretFly wrote:So let's lull on the existence of two European competitions then..one Sky/ERC and one BT..................

Now wouldn't that be a juicy little prospect for an end of year link-up final - best faces best for real European title?

Some people don't like this thought around these parts, but I do. A final yearly decision to elect the Best side in Europe. Would both title holders be willing to meet?

Yeah, I'm coming round slowly, maybe the French/English competition should be allowed go ahead.

Allowed? No who's arrogant?

HammerofThunor wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So let's lull on the existence of two European competitions then..one Sky/ERC and one BT..................

Now wouldn't that be a juicy little prospect for an end of year link-up final - best faces best for real European title?

Some people don't like this thought around these parts, but I do. A final yearly decision to elect the Best side in Europe. Would both title holders be willing to meet?

Yeah, I'm coming round slowly, maybe the French/English competition should be allowed go ahead.

Allowed? No who's arrogant?

arrogant? Moi??? That's just a good business word I thought..putting your cards on the table, straight talking

Go on Hammer...answer my query. You think if European competition did break into two that the winner of the BT Anglo/French one would agree to meet the winner of the Sky/ERC Pro12-weaker English and French one?

IF, and it's a big if, the HEC splits into Franglo and PRO12 cups then I hope the PRO12 cup would allows us to get beat by Leinster in a match up

At least until Ulster take over in the Irish Provincial tag-team of awesomeness [that's totally serious as well]

Of course if the game was played in England it would be televised by BT.

If there was space in the schedule I'm sure they would.

I was going to post this:


..Expected Hammer's answer: "ONLY if PRL contol who gets TV rights to it.





but you beat me too it!

HammerofThunor wrote:

I expect there will be some minor changes to the structure to please the French, the TV stuff will be released to the individual unions and a switch to BT. Other than that I don't think much will change.

allyt2k, that deal was for the full HEC and ACC. If the teams involved change they won't have the same deal. They may do a deal but it will be no-where near as valuable.

''Thats why I said they would not pay as much''

Do you wish me to repeat myself more than twice?

Fly & Thunor, nice convo and discussion lads. We should frame ye, as a prime example of reasoned debate. Tidy.

I'd have it in the Millennium stadium so the PRL wouldn't control the rights. Supposed to be best rugby stadium in the world and guarantees a neutral venue.

allyt2k, sorry, by less I mean next to bugger all and probably not worth it for the RABO clubs if the money is split evenly with the Championship and D2 clubs.

Gibson wrote:Fly & Thunor, nice convo and discussion lads. We should frame ye, as a prime example for reasoned debate. Tidy.

You read through all that????????????????????????? You're a bloody saint, gibbo..I couldn't stomach it. Take these, you earned them

HammerofThunor wrote:I'd have it in the Millennium stadium so the PRL wouldn't control the rights. Supposed to be best rugby stadium in the world and guarantees a neutral venue.

allyt2k, sorry, by less I mean next to bugger all and probably not worth it for the RABO clubs if the money is split evenly with the Championship and D2 clubs.

Don't know Sky seem angry that BT have moved on to there turf, sky have been very loyal and do a pretty good job advertising and showing the european games, BT sound as tho there ready and willing to finance and build up a new european tournament, sky could see this as a challenge and I would put my money on sky before BT.

let battle commence

Got the song in time..brilliant

One likely consequence of this is that the Championship will get a lot more exposure on Sky next year. Maybe renegotiate so they can show a game a week?

Hmmm - as I speculated earlier. PRL in the shape of McCafferty may have crossed a line with his latest announcements.

From Times today:

"Has Mark McCafferty got a death wish? Has the chief executive of Premier Rugby (PRL) lost the plot entirely? It would seem so judging by his decision to adopt the nuclear option in his “negotiations” with ERC over the future of the Heineken Cup.

If the owners or chairmen of the 12 Aviva Premiership clubs do not put him out of his misery, he threatens to drag them on to the rocks. At a stroke, he has alienated the entire world of rugby and that takes some doing.

It is understood that a clear majority of the 12 clubs want rid of their chief executive, who joined from Avis, the car rental firm, on a salary in excess of £400,000.

However, it needs a unanimous verdict to consign McCafferty to rugby history and that collective will has been absent. More than once McCafferty has been granted a stay of execution. It is time to pull the trigger.

The unilateral announcement of the end of the Heineken Cup six days before all stakeholders in the tournament are due to meet in Dublin in an attempt to thrash out their differences is both astonishing and confusing.
First, he has sold the rights to a tournament that does not exist and one that PRL cannot own or control independently.

Second, his assertion that in 2007 the RFU signed over the TV rights to a competition in which PRL participated is only partly correct. It is in the case of league games, but incorrect in a European context. The Heineken Cup is a competition run and owned by unions.

Even had he been correct, the heads of agreement between the union and the clubs over all joint matters expires in 2015-16 and until another is in place, TV rights return to the union. It is not within McCafferty’s gift to sell rights to anything beyond that date, let alone to 2018, as he has with BT Vision.

Third, who are the English clubs going to play in this brave new world?
This stand-off is not about the route to qualification for the Heineken Cup alone, about which ERC has sympathy and concedes that change is necessary. It is about greed and governance.

But McCafferty would be wrong if he thinks France offers a definitive solution. In ERC matters, the French union (FFR) has five votes, four of which have been given to LNR, their clubs’ association. But in matters of “national interest” the FFR can reclaim those.

It is inconceivable that Pierre Camou, the FFR president, would not exercise that power of veto. He would not want to upset Bernard Lapasset, his compatriot who is chairman of the IRB and would have to sanction any new cross-border venture. Lapasset would surely not do that and destroy a tournament that has gripped the European imagination since 1995......."

SecretFly wrote:Got the song in time..brilliant

No Spiders on you Fly. Respek.

For the AP and McCafferty. The durty, sly, cheatin, underhanded, arrogant, money-grabbing, hungry, inward-looking - basterds. Lets be honest and fair in this discussion, put our cards on the table yeah?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HZ04FPK0S8

The Rugby Football Union has launched an investigation to establish whether Premier Rugby’s controversial £152 million broadcasting rights deal with BT Vision is legally binding. And the backlash against the deal was spreading last night, with Patrick Wolff, the vice-president of the French League, calling its timing “inappropriate” and Cardiff Blues chairman Peter Thomas accusing English clubs of leaving their fellow European clubs “in the lurch”.

I thought the PRL where talking to LNR about there demands from the ERC? doesn't sound that way, LNR seem just as surprised.

After reading numerous articles on this, I think that the PRL are about to cause everyone to spend a lot of money on lawyers for a very long time.

Well done them.

The four other home unions and Italians will likely take this to the European Court with the ERC accord that England signed up to, and the IRB who ratify the HEC on their side.

Reading the Telegraph article it sounds like the RFU consider the PRLs deal to be illegal as well.

someone has there wires crossed and have made a complete mess

Quote from Mark McCafferty, chief executive of Premiership Rugby

"I want to emphasise that our objective is to remain in the Heineken Cup," he said. "The television deal we have agreed with BT will increase the size of the pot for everyone in Europe. Scotland and Italy will benefit: what we want is to increase the size of the cake rather than argue about slices.

Quote from Marc Watson chief executive of BT

"We are looking to set up, or at least help set up, a dazzling new European tournament with a fantastic new format, with, we hope, all the best clubs," he told sportspromedia.com.

are the PRL and BT even talking to each other? doesn't sound that way

maestegmafia wrote:After reading numerous articles on this, I think that the PRL are about to cause everyone to spend a lot of money on lawyers for a very long time.

Well done them.

Maesteg, mo chara, Asbo was saying that earlier. The Law wins, whichever way it goes. Kaaaching! Spot on.

The Celts and the Italians, the ERC, the IRB and SKY - cannot afford to give up this fight.

I smell compromise on the Heineken Cup issue. No one cares that BT has got the Jeff. Except those with SKY Boxes an ting. I'm sure they will do an excellent job. I will always watch it. The Jeff is a great product. BT are a vast outfit, with a top-notch global communications machine. The BT Premiership will be a force to be reckoned with.

But, in the end, ye will have to tow the line on this particular issue, dahlinks.

Concessions will be made. 1 less team from the PRO12 to qualify? I dunno.

Ok. I do know. We give you Munster. Deal?

Munster in the Premiership? There's a thought.

no your not taking munster, i like playing them, take the hairsprays instead they would love the salons in london

One thing is for sure there will be a different HC & that was the objective of both the French & English.

"It's better to burn out than to fade away" - Neil Young

What a way for the HC to burn out.

Most of what Wolff is saying is that the timing is a bad, which is is. It doesn't read like he was unaware of it. Just that he wanted to keep it quite.

Key thing to me is whether the rights include English away games. If they do that will definitely urine a lot of people off (but is unlikely to lose them money). If not then it's just a negotiation point.

The French have to tread very carefully with the union. The clubs apparently have 4 out of the 5 French votes for the ERC. BUT the union can take these back if its in the "national interest".

RFU investigating is perfectly normal. It is funny some papers saying the PRL are out of order seeing their rights for after 2016 when the RFU deal runs out, then goes on to talk about the ERC making a deal from 2014.

One good thing is that IF this all gets sorted out positively then the RPL are really going to need an extension of the TV rights agreement with the RFU. It gives the RFU some more barginning power with them.

Mickado wrote:"It's better to burn out than to fade away" - Neil Young

Hmm that was also the finishing line of Kurt Cobains suicide note...!

I hope you're not suggesting the Celtic unions are going to put the metaphorical shotgun in their metaphorical mouth and pull the metaphorical trigger?

London Welsh are highly in favour of it, although they do seem to labour under the delusion they wont be relegated this year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19585839

We are in the Premiership for money. I like money, especially big sums. Although my club will get a tiny draw the Im more than happy to take advantage of the equal splits system, much like the proper Welsh.

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope you're not suggesting the Celtic unions are going to put the metaphorical shotgun in their metaphorical mouth and pull the metaphorical trigger?

No I think the PRL might have just done that to themselves

The maneuverings have been without the consultation of the other unions that they have an accord with and the ERC, which is recognised by the IRB.

The reason the IRB are involved is to make sure decisions are "made for the good of rugby as a whole", this decision has been made for the wealth of clubs in England with absolutely no consideration for rugby as a sport outside of those in the PRL.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:London Welsh are highly in favour of it, although they do seem to labour under the delusion they wont be relegated this year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19585839

We are in the Premiership for money. I like money, especially big sums. Although my club will get a tiny draw the Im more than happy to take advantage of the equal splits system, much like the proper Welsh.

LW get less money than relegated Newcastle

allyt2k wrote:someone has there wires crossed and have made a complete mess

Quote from Mark McCafferty, chief executive of Premiership Rugby

"I want to emphasise that our objective is to remain in the Heineken Cup," he said. "The television deal we have agreed with BT will increase the size of the pot for everyone in Europe. Scotland and Italy will benefit: what we want is to increase the size of the cake rather than argue about slices.

Quote from Marc Watson chief executive of BT

"We are looking to set up, or at least help set up, a dazzling new European tournament with a fantastic new format, with, we hope, all the best clubs," he told sportspromedia.com.

are the PRL and BT even talking to each other? doesn't sound that way

That just about sums it up.... PRL have sold something they don't have the rights to, to a company who believe they now own rugby in England.

Marc Watson said: 'We saw in rugby an opportunity to own a sport exclusively".

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I hope you're not suggesting the Celtic unions are going to put the metaphorical shotgun in their metaphorical mouth and pull the metaphorical trigger?

No I think the PRL might have just done that to themselves

The maneuverings have been without the consultation of the other unions that they have an accord with and the ERC, which is recognised by the IRB.

The reason the IRB are involved is to make sure decisions are "made for the good of rugby as a whole", this decision has been made for the wealth of clubs in England with absolutely no consideration for rugby as a sport outside of those in the PRL.

The accord ends in 2014. Then new agreement doesn't start until 2014. If a European agreement is agreed then everyone is on board and why would the IRB get involved? If no European agreement is reached then there is no cross boarder competition and it's got nothing to do with the IRB.

The only way I can see the IRB getting involved is if one union is isolated to teach them a lesson and only real chance of that would be the PRL. It would be very funny if the French and Celts tried to cut out the English, only for the IRB to come and stop it. What have to English done wrong? Sold TV rights they own and probably will own post 2016. Hardly grounds for European exclusion.

But don't let me stop anyone dressing this up as whatever they want. We're only in this mess because the Celtic unions are greedy and more than their fair share. The reason this has caused a storm is because we'll actually find out how much the TV rights for the English games compares to the others. If it turns out a lot more it vindicates the PRL's stance that they bring more money to the table and therefore deserve more. A stance shared by the French.

We're on in this mess because English and French 'giants' have stopped winning the HC and want to take their ball home.

If it was a Leicester/Toulon final we wouldn't be discussing this