Heineken Cup Thread

[Morgannwg]

First topic message reminder :

I'm quite looking forward to this years competition so wanted to get a discussion on it going. This years pools look to be the toughest yet; but some said that last year only for Leinster to be the best team from day one through to the final.

Pool 1
Edinburgh
Munster
Racing Metro
Saracens

This may possibly be the toughest group to decide. Much to the disgust of Beshocked, I will predict Munster to pull through and claim top spot. They are not quite on the wane yet. They've made some intelligent signings and promoted from within the Province. The matchday squad for the H-cup will be some force IMO and their ability to play smart rugby, determined rugby and ability to win away from home is why they get my vote (they will probably be the only ones capable of a double against the gunners).

Pool 2
Benetton Treviso
Leicester Tigers
Ospreys
Toulouse

Well things are looking bleak for the Ospreys again. Drew with Treviso away from home in last seasons competition, lost to them this season and are still unable to score tries. Tigers are improving but are not a good H-cup team yet and the Italians will make progression tough for them, so I believe four-time winners Toulouse will top the group.

Pool 3
Biarritz Olypique Pays Basque
Connacht
Harlequins
Zebre

Connacht should be targetting 3 wins as their aim, that's 2 against Zebre and 1 against the English team they beat in last years competition. Quins should be aiming to top the group. But I can not for life of anyone see past Biarritz topping the group (probably being the number 1 seed by the end of the pool stages aswell). In the past few years they have really gone out and punished the weak teams, I predict them to get 20 points from the Connacht/Zebre fixtures and 4-6 points from the matches against Harlequins. Quins are good but Biarritz might revert to some 10 man rugby which will be enough to beat the English champions. The Harlequins may still make the final 8.

Pool 4
Castres Olympique
Glasgow Warriors
Northampton Saints
Ulster

Another very tough one to call here. I don't know much about Castres this season but I get the feeling they're just another unimpressive French outfit with a big budget. They're capable of some big wins at home but won't win the pool. Glasgow were good but changed coaches, which was the decision of the SRU I believe, and have since gone backwards instead of trying to develop their improvement further. Saints are good, but overhyped and not good enough to top this pool. I think Ulster will be the only ones progressing from this group. They are also an improved team, completely outdone in last years final but no doubt learnt a harsh lesson about mixing in with big teams of Europe.

Pool 5
ASM Clermont Auvergne
Exeter Chiefs
Leinster Rugby
Scarlets

Exeter will get a tough introduction to Heineken Cup rugby in this group. I do rate them highly and they are capable of causing upsets, BUT, I think despite how good they've been on the scene they will be whipping boys. Leinster and ASM will give them a harsh introduction to H-cup rugby, a very harsh one. I feel sorry for the Scarlets. Just as they look to be getting a settled team by sorting out their areas of weakness they get grouped with the current european champions and the top French team; also with these a stubborn Exeter Chiefs targetting both of their fixtures in Parc-y and Sandy. I'm going to back the Scarlets to beat Leinster and Clermont once each though. This year I predict Clermont to finally get the upper hand on Leinster and top the group. Leinster have the ability to get enough points, some way or another, enough that will see them still make the top 8.

Pool 6
Cardiff Blues
Montpellier
Sale Sharks
Toulon

Well this is an uninspiring group but here goes. Toulon are the strongest team and will top the group. Montpellier are unknown to me, 'whocares' could shed some light on the French. Cardiff and Sale are rubbish. Blues in particular look very weak up front. Could they turn it around in time with the signings they have made or will they keep hold of average, under-performing players... I wouldn't put it past them doing the double on either Sale or Montpellier though.



Final 8
This isn't in order of points difference as I can't call that, apart from the brackets.
Biarritz (top seeds)
Munster
Toulouse
Ulster
ASM
Toulon
Harlequins (best runners up)
Leinster (best runners up)

There's then the Amlin drop down. Scarlets might get there with their ability to score tries. Looking at this years pools though it's hard to see where teams will win away from home and pick up bonus points. Really tough to call but interested to hear what everyone else is thinking.

[beshocked]

Morgannwg we keep hearing how badly the AP sides did in the HC last season. Also that the English champions lost to lowly Connacht.

Is it talking up Quins to suggest they will top their pool?

Quins don't get talked up as much as the other sides because this is only their 2nd season as a top 4 side. The likes of Leicester,Saints and Saracens have been in the AP top 4 for the last 3 seasons.

The Irish sides and Clermont have been a real thorn in the side of Leicester,Saracens and Saints. Particularly in the last two seasons.

[Knackeredknees]

Morgannwg
I know you like nothing better that having a dig or cheep shot at any and all things English? Don't know why, or what has happened in you life for such a dislike for a whole nation?

Just for you information if you wish the throw in about who beat who last year, just think long and hard before you do!

Last season Connacht did not beat the English champions at all! In fact they never played the English champions last season!

[BoyneRFC]

Morgannwg
I know you like nothing better that having a dig or cheep shot at any and all things English? Don't know why, or what has happened in you life for such a dislike for a whole nation?

Just for you information if you wish the throw in about who beat who last year, just think long and hard before you do!

Last season Connacht did not beat the English champions at all! In fact they never played the English champions last season!

This over sensitive tripe. This is a discussion about rugby and nothing else. Give the persecuted mentality "everyone hates us and we don't care" none sense a rest will you. Certain English posters point out that Connacht shouldn't be in the HEC. A quite logical counter argument is that they beat the AP Champs (Quinns) and they did. No matter that it wasn't last year.

[gowales]

Morgannwg
I know you like nothing better that having a dig or cheep shot at any and all things English? Don't know why, or what has happened in you life for such a dislike for a whole nation?

Just for you information if you wish the throw in about who beat who last year, just think long and hard before you do!

Last season Connacht did not beat the English champions at all! In fact they never played the English champions last season!

This over sensitive tripe. This is a discussion about rugby and nothing else. Give the persecuted mentality "everyone hates us and we don't care" none sense a rest will you. Certain English posters point out that Connacht shouldn't be in the HEC. A quite logical counter argument is that they beat the AP Champs (Quinns) and they did. No matter that it wasn't last year.

You're fairly new to this forum. Have you read Morgs posts?

[BoyneRFC]

Been on here for about 6 years, mate. Back to the old BBC days.

If he is being an eejit for no (rugby) reason, then fine. I tend to avoid the Anglo- Welsh bickerfest as it bores the bejesus out of me.

But in this case, stating the obvious needn't be seen as an "attack on a whole nation".

[BoyneRFC]

Or "dislike"... whatever....

This is the truth. We all need each other.

To pretend otherwise is a folly. Please try and see this from the other unions point of view. It's bully boy tactics and I have spoken to numerous English people (who work with me here in Dublin) who are appalled at the greed, short sightedness and arrogance of the English clubs.

Emotions might run high, but it is just because this is affecting the the show piece of the sport we all love.

[gowales]

Or "dislike"... whatever....

This is the truth. We all need each other.

To pretend otherwise is a folly. Please try and see this from the other unions point of view. It's bully boy tactics and I have spoken to numerous English people (who work with me here in Dublin) who are appalled at the greed, short sightedness and arrogance of the English clubs.

Emotions might run high, but it is just because this is affecting the the show piece of the sport we all love.

Cool i understand.

But we're not talking about that on this thread.

Or at least most people are trying to stay on the threads original subject

[Knackeredknees]

BoyneRFC

Was just pointing out that at the time of the game Quinn's were nobody, they were not the champions. Sarries were the reigning champions at the time of the game last year, claiming they have beaten the champions makes him look a bit foolish and childish.

Don't hear me say that my team as it beat the Pro12 winners proving that my league is better than yours. Or coat tailing a nation in a league who's sides did something they couldnt

[Knackeredknees]

As for the HC would like to see it made up as beshocked has put forward.
6AP
6Top 14
8Rabo(2 ire, 2 wal, 1scot, 1 itl) and the next highest finishers

[beshocked]

Or "dislike"... whatever....

This is the truth. We all need each other.

To pretend otherwise is a folly. Please try and see this from the other unions point of view. It's bully boy tactics and I have spoken to numerous English people (who work with me here in Dublin) who are appalled at the greed, short sightedness and arrogance of the English clubs.

Emotions might run high, but it is just because this is affecting the the show piece of the sport we all love.

BoyneRFC you are entitled to your opinion. You see it as bully boy tactics. I see it as the Pro12 sides having it too good for too long. If the English and French clubs generate more revenue they should get more. You don't seem to see the English and French POV.

The Scots,Welsh etc get too big a slice of the pie for what they bring to the table.

The Pro12 sides get too many HC places - that's wrong. Edinburgh for example can come 11th in the Pro12 yet pour all their resources into the HC to get a semi final. Connacht can do absolutely nothing and still qualify because they hanging onto the coat tails of their more successful Irish cousins. Whoever gets Zebre in the HC gets a distinctive advantage - virtually 8 points at least in the bag.

[BoyneRFC]

BoyneRFC you are entitled to your opinion. You see it as bully boy tactics. I see it as the Pro12 sides having it too good for too long. If the English and French clubs generate more revenue they should get more. You don't seem to see the English and French POV.

Knackered- I like that suggestion. Basically I dont want the Italians or Scotts booted out. It would be bad for rugby.

Beshocked- just because you have a bigger population doesn't mean you should get more revenue. That is not fair or right. I remember the English RFU wanted to destroy the 6 nations years ago because they were looking for more money than the rest.

In any case, as I said, we all need each other and a compromise will prevail.

BTW I think its escaped everyone that Irish teams would have little to lose in the rules proposed. In all likelihood, Munster Leinster and Ulster would qualify every year.

My concern is leaving out the Italians in a crucial period in their development and cutting the Scots lose.

[BoyneRFC]

Sorry0 was supposed to quote this-


6AP
6Top 14
8Rabo(2 ire, 2 wal, 1scot, 1 itl) and the next highest finishers

[Knackeredknees]

BoyneRFC you are entitled to your opinion. You see it as bully boy tactics. I see it as the Pro12 sides having it too good for too long. If the English and French clubs generate more revenue they should get more. You don't seem to see the English and French POV.

Knackered- I like that suggestion. Basically I dont want the Italians or Scotts booted out. It would be bad for rugby.

Beshocked- just because you have a bigger population doesn't mean you should get more revenue. That is not fair or right. I remember the English RFU wanted to destroy the 6 nations years ago because they were looking for more money than the rest.

In any case, as I said, we all need each other and a compromise will prevail.

BTW I think its escaped everyone that Irish teams would have little to lose in the rules proposed. In all likelihood, Munster Leinster and Ulster would qualify every year.

My concern is leaving out the Italians in a crucial period in their development and cutting the Scots lose.

Don't think it would as the remaining 6 sides would have to improve and get better if they want to qualify, if more teams are fighting got the HC trey will have to get stronger.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

You do realise that If you predict Clermont top and Leinster 2nd, that the Scarlets can't then get into the Amlin no mater what they do?

Nope, forgot about that ruling sorry.

It's not a ruling. Just that only 2 teams can come out of any group.

6 pool toppers to the HC

Of the 2nd place teams 2 go to the HC 3 go to the Amlin and 1 goes home.

Nothing for 3rd place in this comp. (bar 2 ranking points )

[beshocked]

BoyneRFC the Irish would not be punished. You could get 4 Irish sides in the competition.

As the way things stand Connacht have virtually no chance of qualifying by merit. My system would give them a puncher's chance.

1 Italian and Scottish side would be protected.

Potentially you could get 4 Irish sides, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian and Scottish.

Or alternatively 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Italian and Scottish if the Italians and Scottish finish high enough.

It would make the Pro12 more competitive and strengthen the HC.

[XR]

I made this suggestion on the BBC article yesterday:

Pro12, Aviva & Top14 have the top six represented.

The teams that finished 7 & 8 in the 3 leagues (6 teams overall) form 2 groups of 3, like a qualifying round before the HEC kicks off. They play each other once and get one home game each like so:

Team A Play Team B
Team B Play Team C
Team C Play Team A

The top 2 teams make the HEC to 20 teams (5 groups of 4) and the remaining 4 (or you could even go further and just say the 2 runner up's) go in to the Amlin with teams that finished 9,10 & 11 in all 3 leagues + the teams from spain/romania/italy to create a 20 team competition. I think this would strengthen both cups.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

How do you think Leinster will do this season in the HC? Do you think this is Clermont's time to get one over you?

How do you rate the Scarlets and Exeter as threats?

Clermont v Leinster is a bit of a lottery. We have won 2 tight knock out games against them. Whoever turns up on the day will take it. Most likely both will so it will be down to the bounce of a ball. They should be more hungry to beat us though.

I would love to win the 1st 3 games. (Ex at home, Scar away, Cler away) Clermont have not been beaten in their stadium in any comp for 4 years or so. We came within a Shane Jennings disallowed try of drawing there in Dec 10 (the last HC game we lost) with an understrength team.

Scarlets and Exeter. Both could take us in the away leg. I am hoping the lads are well ready for them. Scarlets have already lashed us in the Rabo admittedly with more of their top players than we had.

Exeter away in the final round could be interesting. English teams rarely lie down even if they are out of the comp. (Like French teams often do) If we go there NEEDing to beat them (pretty likely) it could be a decent game.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

BoyneRFC the Irish would not be punished. You could get 4 Irish sides in the competition.

As the way things stand Connacht have virtually no chance of qualifying by merit. My system would give them a puncher's chance.

1 Italian and Scottish side would be protected.

Potentially you could get 4 Irish sides, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian and Scottish.

Or alternatively 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Italian and Scottish if the Italians and Scottish finish high enough.

It would make the Pro12 more competitive and strengthen the HC.

I have no problem with this. Personally I would like to keep 24 teams and would even go 3 x 8 with 1 Irish 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian. The other 4 on league position. Or 7 Eng, 7 Fra, 8 Rabo and the 2 cup winners. Not a massive fan of dragging a team from your country in, even though it has benefited Connacht the last 2 years.

I agree it would spice up the Rabo.

[beshocked]

Not a bad idea Gcblues.

Only problem when would the qualifying round be played?

Jenifer we are in agreement mostly though I don't agree that there should be more AP or Top 14 sides btw because I think that just supports mediocrity. I don't think English and French sides are superior to the Pro12 sides - position by position but there's more at stake in the Top 14 and AP.


I just think it would really help develop the Pro12 as it has been criticised as being low intensity and not competitive enough.

The playoffs have helped you and I think some jostling for HC qualification would help.

This has to be coupled with a more interesting Amlin Challenge Cup.

Obviously none of us want to see Scottish and Italian clubs going into free fall.

The general idea is to make the HC and ACC more competitive and the Pro12 more so too.

[XR]

Not a bad idea Gcblues.

Only problem when would the qualifying round be played?

Don't see why it can't be done in July/August - that's when the old qualifying stage used to happen, i believe? I remember the blues playing Calvisano in a double header one year.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Not a bad idea Gcblues.

Only problem when would the qualifying round be played?

Don't see why it can't be done in July/August - that's when the old qualifying stage used to happen, i believe? I remember the blues playing Calvisano in a double header one year.

That was the old 4th Welsh team v the 3rd place in the Italian pro 10 game.

There were 3 Italian teams in the HC on 2 occasions I think.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Not a bad idea Gcblues.

Only problem when would the qualifying round be played?

Jenifer we are in agreement mostly though I don't agree that there should be more AP or Top 14 sides btw because I think that just supports mediocrity. I don't think English and French sides are superior to the Pro12 sides - position by position but there's more at stake in the Top 14 and AP.


I just think it would really help develop the Pro12 as it has been criticised as being low intensity and not competitive enough.

The playoffs have helped you and I think some jostling for HC qualification would help.

This has to be coupled with a more interesting Amlin Challenge Cup.

Obviously none of us want to see Scottish and Italian clubs going into free fall.

The general idea is to make the HC and ACC more competitive and the Pro12 more so too.

I agree with all of that. Just like the 24 team HC. Perhaps a smaller HC and a same size Amlin would be good for creating a 3rd comp though, as it would drop 4 teams out of the Amlin.

Could there be an Amlin winner gets into the HC and 3rd level winner gets into the Amlin situation?

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

The general idea is to make the HC and ACC more competitive and the Pro12 more so too.

OK when I said I agree with all that.... The only thing I don't agree with is who's general idea it is. Not the prl. They just want more cash.

[SecretFly]

It's not the PRL's or their French equivalent's role to look for more competitiveness in the PRO12. Not their business. Their business is to bring their concerns with them to a meeting. Their concerns are strictly to do with any future participation by them in a European competition. Competitiveness in the Pro12 is not a concern in this regard, only the idea that they think Pro12 have two more automatic qualifiers than they do.

Inequality is their issue (real or imaginary).

We'll take care of how hard we fight in any particular game, or when we play or don't play specific players in any particular game. That's our concern.

[Morgannwg]

Morgannwg
I know you like nothing better that having a dig or cheep shot at any and all things English? Don't know why, or what has happened in you life for such a dislike for a whole nation?

Just for you information if you wish the throw in about who beat who last year, just think long and hard before you do!

Last season Connacht did not beat the English champions at all! In fact they never played the English champions last season!

WTF are you talking about?

[Knackeredknees]

Morgannwg
I know you like nothing better that having a dig or cheep shot at any and all things English? Don't know why, or what has happened in you life for such a dislike for a whole nation?

Just for you information if you wish the throw in about who beat who last year, just think long and hard before you do!

Last season Connacht did not beat the English champions at all! In fact they never played the English champions last season!

WTF are you talking about?

The game you keep referring to was when Sarries were the champions last season, Quins have only been the champions since May.

So Connacht played and did beat Quins who were just an AP side at the time. not much to shout about really unless your that petty on a "celt" side beating an AP one

[Morgannwg]

I must have missed where I keep referring to that game? I think it's beshocked who keeps mentioning that (along with flipping qualification for the H-cup which is boring and off-topic). All I said was something along the lines of Connacht targetting the game against the English champions in this years tournament. I've also said Quins can top the group which kinda balances it out. I think it's all in your head, now you just look daft with those comments. Now bugga off my article.

[Knackeredknees]

Well now you can correct anyone whe mentions it and goes off topic about it. As for buggering off your thread, as its a free forum and i have already posted my thoughts on the outcome of the meetings earlier, that concessions in the Rabo Nations and extra money brought in by the Broadcasters we will still have the HC just a slightly different version, just like when the Welsh went regional changes were made.

[Morgannwg]

So you admit you were completely wrong then? Perhaps you should learn to stay on topic, learn to read, before making accusations about other people. Think about that.

[Knackeredknees]

Where was i wrong? i corrected an incorrect "fact" that was being thrown about?
Maybe if you stopped trying to point score over posters and kept a civil conversation you may end up getting a better response to your posts.

[Morgannwg]

Well after you accused me of slagging off everything English you accused me of claiming Connacht beat the English champions when I never said that. No need to be pedantic about a moot point. Connacht beat a team that went on to become English champions a few weeks later, what's the big deal in saying so?

Nobody is point scoring here, the only ones arguing are you and beshocked. Leave it off my threads, us decent people are trying to have a discussion about the Heineken Cup pools.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Pool 5
ASM Clermont Auvergne
Exeter Chiefs
Leinster Rugby
Scarlets

Exeter will get a tough introduction to Heineken Cup rugby in this group. I do rate them highly and they are capable of causing upsets, BUT, I think despite how good they've been on the scene they will be whipping boys. Leinster and ASM will give them a harsh introduction to H-cup rugby, a very harsh one. I feel sorry for the Scarlets. Just as they look to be getting a settled team by sorting out their areas of weakness they get grouped with the current european champions and the top French team; also with these a stubborn Exeter Chiefs targetting both of their fixtures in Parc-y and Sandy. I'm going to back the Scarlets to beat Leinster and Clermont once each though. This year I predict Clermont to finally get the upper hand on Leinster and top the group. Leinster have the ability to get enough points, some way or another, enough that will see them still make the top 8.

There's then the Amlin drop down. Scarlets might get there with their ability to score tries. Looking at this years pools though it's hard to see where teams will win away from home and pick up bonus points. Really tough to call but interested to hear what everyone else is thinking.

You do realise that If you predict Clermont top and Leinster 2nd, that the Scarlets can't then get into the Amlin no mater what they do?

Nope, forgot about that ruling sorry.

2009/10 Tigers had enough points to have gone through as a second place team but finished third in their group and didnt event get a losers cup spot. Pulling a group of death is bad news.

[Morgannwg]

Toulouse playing well and getting the results apparently, as are Northampton. Although conceding 4 tries in 16 minutes should be a cause for concern. Saints will either do well or perform inconsistently (like last season).

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Toulouse playing well and getting the results apparently, as are Northampton. Although conceding 4 tries in 16 minutes should be a cause for concern. Saints will either do well or perform inconsistently (like last season).

Yes Saints brought on 6 players around 60 mins for game time when the game was 'won' & it obviously disrupted Saints ang gave Worcester a sniff. Saints know they need a solid squad to compete in the quarters & beyond.

[niwatts]

It's a mistake Malinder often makes, he dumps his whole bench on within a few minutes (this time between the 50-60min mark). Even when you're 30 points up that level of disruption is going to cause issues.

[Morgannwg]

It doesn't always cause issue's. I've seen Ospreys and Scarlets do it. The guys that came on had little experience but were young and hungry. What is the Saints bench like?

[ChequeredJersey]

I want to err on the side of caution, but I don't think Connacht will get any points off us this year. Last year we were so naive in Ireland, our breakdown and pack weren't firing and we struggled, at that time, to close out tight games. Since then this has not been the case and our new look scrum and lineout are genuine weapons not weaknesses and our breakdown is far far better. If we don't get at least 5 points in total from Biarritz I will consider it a failure. less than 4 points would be an abject failure unless our injury list gets a fair bit worse.

Connacht beat us fair and square last season (in some of the worst conditions I have seen in a rugby match) but we learnt from the experience and hopefully we hopefully won't have the composure-deflating loss just before playing them like we did against Sarries last year.

Seriously, have you seen Marler and JJ last Christmas vs their scrummaging now? I believe we are nearly as well equipped to win a tight, defensive, forward based territory game as a free-flowing one this season. But as I have said many times before- we'll see

[ChequeredJersey]

Well after you accused me of slagging off everything English you accused me of claiming Connacht beat the English champions when I never said that. No need to be pedantic about a moot point. Connacht beat a team that went on to become English champions a few weeks later, what's the big deal in saying so?

Nobody is point scoring here, the only ones arguing are you and beshocked. Leave it off my threads, us decent people are trying to have a discussion about the Heineken Cup pools.

All true except it was only a few weeks later if you define a few as 18.

[Morgannwg]

Haven't seen much of Quins this season CJ. Do you think they're strong enough to beat the French? Toulouse at home and Toulon away must have rang the alarm bells last season. I have picked you to make the top 8 btw.

[ChequeredJersey]

Well it's too early to judge but at this point we have 19 points from 4 games, having just beaten Leicester at Leicester and scoring tries for fun. We are far better equipped to win having confidence from winning the Premiership and our pack is looking better. Against a French pack, we will struggle if we are not full strength but if we are then I think we can manage. That was one issue against Toulon, we weren't full strength and we were dominated up front. Toulouse at home, we were frankly outclassed but we did have our 4th choice centre partnership who had never played together and one of our weakest teams of the year out due to injuries and we turned them over the week later. My general suspicion is that we will struggle in Biarritz (but I expect a losing BP) but should win at the Stoop. We should aim (even if we don't succeed) to win every game at the Stoop this year.

We'll have a better idea closer to the time but if we played Connacht at theirs again now, with the same teams in the same form in the same conditions for the same stakes, I have literally zero doubt we'd edge the win

[ChequeredJersey]

Also I'd rather get to the semis and face Clermont or Leinster and lose and learn from it than get an easy ride in. You learn from mistakes and from playing with and against better sides/players and from new experiences, IMO, and as I doubt we'll win the HEC this year or next we should get as much learning in as possible at this top echelon.

[niwatts]

It doesn't always cause issue's. I've seen Ospreys and Scarlets do it. The guys that came on had little experience but were young and hungry. What is the Saints bench like?

The bench isn't bad, not incredible, but decent enough. I don't think it's a player issue it's about a certain amount of continuity when you've got a demonstrable advantage as opposed to having to start again against a side that are already bedded in and not overly tired because it's only 50 mins into the match and only 10 after HT. One minute you're comfortably winning scrums, lineouts & the breakdown, then at the next set more than half your pack is fresh on and expected to get an immediate toehold en masse, whilst your chief game managers in the half back pairing are also just on the pitch and looking to establish themselves. Certainly not impossible (Saints have done it before without the same repercussions), but you're loading the situation for any problems to bloom to issue in comparison to a more gradual phasing of the new units across the pitch.

[maestegmafia]

Watts I agree with your sentiments. I saw Bath RFC at the rec last week do the same and I have been livid with ospreys and Wales coaches in the past doing it.

It does though, as morgannwg points out, very much depend who's on the bench. Quite often young Ospreys like Rhys Webb or Matt Morgan can change your fortunes. But we are lucky at the ospreys to have a very good Accademy, we are not relying on some ageing kiwi/SA warhorse to give the goods as other clubs are.

[BigTrevsbigmac]

It's a mistake Malinder often makes, he dumps his whole bench on within a few minutes (this time between the 50-60min mark). Even when you're 30 points up that level of disruption is going to cause issues.

Of course the other way of looking at it is Worcester did exactly the same & their subs were fantastic all 4 of their tries came from 4 different subs!

[niwatts]

It's a mistake Malinder often makes, he dumps his whole bench on within a few minutes (this time between the 50-60min mark). Even when you're 30 points up that level of disruption is going to cause issues.

Of course the other way of looking at it is Worcester did exactly the same & their subs were fantastic all 4 of their tries came from 4 different subs!

Apart from they didn't do exactly the same, they brought them on over a greater period of time (20+mins to Saints' less than 10) and not all in one area of play at the same time.

[Pot Hale]

Based on what I've seen so far from the various teams:

Pool 1
1. Munster W
2. Racing Metro
3. Edinburgh
4. Saracens

Pool 2
1. Leicester W
2. Toulouse
3. Treviso
4. Ospreys


Pool 3
1. Harlequins W
2. Biarritz R/U
3. Connacht
4. Zebre

Pool 4
1. Northampton W
2. Ulster
3. Castres
4. Glasgow

Pool 5
1. Clermont Auvergne W
2. Leinster Rugby
3. Scarlets
4. Exeter Chiefs

Pool 6
1. Toulon W
2. Cardiff Blues R/U
3. Montpellier
4. Sale Sharks

[beshocked]

Pot Hale unfortunately I actually agree about Pool 1 as things stand. Complete U turn I know but the form this season has been really poor.

Disagree about Pool 2. Leicester look well off the pace.

[LondonTiger]

On what I have seen so far:

Group winners: Munster, Toulouse, Quins, Saints, Leinster , Toulon

Best Runner up - Biarritz + Lord knows.

[beshocked]

Agree with that LondonTiger.

[TJ1]

Do not be surprised if Edinburgh get thru from their group. They qualified from a tougher group last year. It will be a tight group for sure but the away wins are what will count and Edinburgh have what it takes to get them

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