Heineken Cup Thread

[Morgannwg]

First topic message reminder :

I'm quite looking forward to this years competition so wanted to get a discussion on it going. This years pools look to be the toughest yet; but some said that last year only for Leinster to be the best team from day one through to the final.

Pool 1
Edinburgh
Munster
Racing Metro
Saracens

This may possibly be the toughest group to decide. Much to the disgust of Beshocked, I will predict Munster to pull through and claim top spot. They are not quite on the wane yet. They've made some intelligent signings and promoted from within the Province. The matchday squad for the H-cup will be some force IMO and their ability to play smart rugby, determined rugby and ability to win away from home is why they get my vote (they will probably be the only ones capable of a double against the gunners).

Pool 2
Benetton Treviso
Leicester Tigers
Ospreys
Toulouse

Well things are looking bleak for the Ospreys again. Drew with Treviso away from home in last seasons competition, lost to them this season and are still unable to score tries. Tigers are improving but are not a good H-cup team yet and the Italians will make progression tough for them, so I believe four-time winners Toulouse will top the group.

Pool 3
Biarritz Olypique Pays Basque
Connacht
Harlequins
Zebre

Connacht should be targetting 3 wins as their aim, that's 2 against Zebre and 1 against the English team they beat in last years competition. Quins should be aiming to top the group. But I can not for life of anyone see past Biarritz topping the group (probably being the number 1 seed by the end of the pool stages aswell). In the past few years they have really gone out and punished the weak teams, I predict them to get 20 points from the Connacht/Zebre fixtures and 4-6 points from the matches against Harlequins. Quins are good but Biarritz might revert to some 10 man rugby which will be enough to beat the English champions. The Harlequins may still make the final 8.

Pool 4
Castres Olympique
Glasgow Warriors
Northampton Saints
Ulster

Another very tough one to call here. I don't know much about Castres this season but I get the feeling they're just another unimpressive French outfit with a big budget. They're capable of some big wins at home but won't win the pool. Glasgow were good but changed coaches, which was the decision of the SRU I believe, and have since gone backwards instead of trying to develop their improvement further. Saints are good, but overhyped and not good enough to top this pool. I think Ulster will be the only ones progressing from this group. They are also an improved team, completely outdone in last years final but no doubt learnt a harsh lesson about mixing in with big teams of Europe.

Pool 5
ASM Clermont Auvergne
Exeter Chiefs
Leinster Rugby
Scarlets

Exeter will get a tough introduction to Heineken Cup rugby in this group. I do rate them highly and they are capable of causing upsets, BUT, I think despite how good they've been on the scene they will be whipping boys. Leinster and ASM will give them a harsh introduction to H-cup rugby, a very harsh one. I feel sorry for the Scarlets. Just as they look to be getting a settled team by sorting out their areas of weakness they get grouped with the current european champions and the top French team; also with these a stubborn Exeter Chiefs targetting both of their fixtures in Parc-y and Sandy. I'm going to back the Scarlets to beat Leinster and Clermont once each though. This year I predict Clermont to finally get the upper hand on Leinster and top the group. Leinster have the ability to get enough points, some way or another, enough that will see them still make the top 8.

Pool 6
Cardiff Blues
Montpellier
Sale Sharks
Toulon

Well this is an uninspiring group but here goes. Toulon are the strongest team and will top the group. Montpellier are unknown to me, 'whocares' could shed some light on the French. Cardiff and Sale are rubbish. Blues in particular look very weak up front. Could they turn it around in time with the signings they have made or will they keep hold of average, under-performing players... I wouldn't put it past them doing the double on either Sale or Montpellier though.



Final 8
This isn't in order of points difference as I can't call that, apart from the brackets.
Biarritz (top seeds)
Munster
Toulouse
Ulster
ASM
Toulon
Harlequins (best runners up)
Leinster (best runners up)

There's then the Amlin drop down. Scarlets might get there with their ability to score tries. Looking at this years pools though it's hard to see where teams will win away from home and pick up bonus points. Really tough to call but interested to hear what everyone else is thinking.

[BoyneRFC]

People like Portnoy want to change the system, basically, so that there are no more Italians or Scots. This would make "lucky" teams like Tigers draw perhaps another AP team or even another top 14 team.

I'd like for someone (Boyle in particular) to back that assertion with quotes (in context) to demonstrate where my extreme views have been comments have been expounded.

I'm not concerned at all about who (or from where) competes for the HEC - just that the HEC contains the best sides do.

In fact I've gone to the trouble of proposing a system which could involve 32 clubs compete in a European competition - the top sixteen of which go forward to the HEC (or equivalent) and the bottom sixteen the Amlin equivalent.

I have cast doubt on the reasonability of additional places being made available to Unions to gain default places for unqualified sides and I've done so for years.

As with the home-tie convention of pool winners whilst the pools are inevitability uneven.

Boyle? Misspelling my user name to get a raise is really mature. Especially for someone with as many miles on the clock as you, old boy.

Look, you were one of the ones calling fro qualification for the Rabo teams. This will effectively mean (possibly) no Italian teams. I am pointing out to you that you shouldn't wish too hard. This scenario would mean it would be tough for "lucky" teams like the Tigers to qualify.

No offence old bean. Dems de facts.

[beshocked]

Mickado that proves my point. A soft HC group can propel you to a final and artificially boost your ERC ranking.

PSW I would rather see ranking based on similar to the world rankings. Decent sides give you more points for beating them. Beating Zebre would give you few for example. This would give a fairer reflection.

Why should beating Zebre be equal to beating Leinster? It's not.

[Portnoy]

Boyne, the "ones calling fro qualification for the Rabo teams" means qualifying - not (to my mind) spoon-feeding. Zebre are the perfect example - they 'qualified' before they'd ever before they had played a match of any sort.

Dat's a fact as well.

[rodders]

Boyle??... that was pretty funny actually, sorry Boyle...err I mean Boyne....

[BoyneRFC]

Boyne, the "ones calling fro qualification for the Rabo teams" means qualifying - not (to my mind) spoon-feeding. Zebre are the perfect example - they 'qualified' before they'd ever before they had played a match of any sort.

Dat's a fact as well.

Albeit a rather unnecessarily confused one.

Glad you go a giggle out of that one Rodders.. heres's another one for you ..... Titmouse !! Tehehehheheh

[Morgannwg]

Now that you mention it, did Biarritz lose to Treviso?? I don't remember. I know Perpignan did though. Biarritz are too strong up front for their pool contenders and that will be more than enough to beat Connacht/Zebre. I don't think Zebre will be getting any wins this year. Connacht have already got the TBP win against them in Italy. Like I said, I see it as Biarritz getting 20 points from those games. Quins could too, but I get the feeling they'll slip up in Galway again.
Biarritz have been a bit lucky. They aren't really a cause for concern to some of the other teams in the KO stages IMO.

[Morgannwg]

Morgannwg nothing wrong with you predicting Munster. They are a decent side and will be a tough test. Of course I absolutely disagree but you are entitled to your opinion.

Your reasons are foolish though because they perfectly sum up Saracens

Leicester aren't a good HC team with 2 titles to their name? I think that pool is too tough to call. Even the O's with their poor HC record will be a big threat. They have done well against Leicester in HC encounters and beating Leinster shows they can beat the best.

Got to watch out for Treviso though. I fancy them to pull off an upset or two.


Very correct about Biarritz punishing weak teams. This pool is Quins vs Biarritz in my opinion. I expect Quins to win 5 matches, losing in Biarritz. Biarritz to win 4 or 5. I actually think Connacht could well upset Biarritz and hand Quins the pool ironically.

Biarritz aren't great on the road but very strong at home.

Umm Beshocked when did Tigers pick up those two titles??? I said they aren't a good H-cup team at the moment, which is my opinion. They're matches with the Ospreys will likely be the most interesting though. And surely it's a possitive me saying that anyway as Portnoy seems to think the Tigers team read this forum and them seeing me write them off should motivate them to win the competition. Treviso will beat Ospreys or Leicester IMO, or both. They're a tough team to beat.

Yes Biarritz are the strongest in their pool. Quins could get outmuscled, a la Toulon in the ACC last year. They aren't too bad on the road from what I've seen in the past two years.

[beshocked]

Biarritz strongest in the pool? Where do you come up with this stuff?

[BoyneRFC]

They clearly are. You should tune into the Top 14. Best rugby around these days.

[Morgannwg]

Biarritz strongest in the pool? Where do you come up with this stuff?

I come up with that one by looking at their respective pool. It was the easiest one to call.

[maestegmafia]

Yep Biarritz are definitely favourites in what is probably the easiest pool. Im sure Harlequins can muster a shock win somewhere like last year but likewise they are just as likely to lose to Connacht, like last year, almost home and away.

Don't fancy Ospreys chances of doing much special at the moment, tough group, Tigers and Toulouse have huge budgets and awesome squads full of top internationals. Two of the highest earning clubs in Europe. It makes a huge difference.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Don't fancy Ospreys chances of doing much special at the moment, tough group, Tigers and Toulouse have huge budgets and awesome squads full of top internationals. Two of the highest earning clubs in Europe. It makes a huge difference.

Yeah its tough for Ospreys now they can only afford to field 15 men at a time

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Mickado that proves my point. A soft HC group can propel you to a final and artificially boost your ERC ranking.

PSW I would rather see ranking based on similar to the world rankings. Decent sides give you more points for beating them. Beating Zebre would give you few for example. This would give a fairer reflection.

Why should beating Zebre be equal to beating Leinster? It's not.

Arghhhh. Not this again.

You seem to have a fixed idea in your head of which team is better than which. If rankings do not conform to this notion you have, you want to get rid of them.

I can't see a system which only takes euro games into account that is any fairer than what exists.

Your suggestion may be clear cut when comparing Leinster and Zebre but how do you rank all the teams in between? you want to rank all the teams based on????? to calculate the points that they get for beating each other and then..... rank them based on that?

Ad Mick says no system is absolutely fair, but I can't think of a better one that is not open to someone's opinion of which team is better than which, or else massively overcomplicated.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Pool 5
ASM Clermont Auvergne
Exeter Chiefs
Leinster Rugby
Scarlets

Exeter will get a tough introduction to Heineken Cup rugby in this group. I do rate them highly and they are capable of causing upsets, BUT, I think despite how good they've been on the scene they will be whipping boys. Leinster and ASM will give them a harsh introduction to H-cup rugby, a very harsh one. I feel sorry for the Scarlets. Just as they look to be getting a settled team by sorting out their areas of weakness they get grouped with the current european champions and the top French team; also with these a stubborn Exeter Chiefs targetting both of their fixtures in Parc-y and Sandy. I'm going to back the Scarlets to beat Leinster and Clermont once each though. This year I predict Clermont to finally get the upper hand on Leinster and top the group. Leinster have the ability to get enough points, some way or another, enough that will see them still make the top 8.

There's then the Amlin drop down. Scarlets might get there with their ability to score tries. Looking at this years pools though it's hard to see where teams will win away from home and pick up bonus points. Really tough to call but interested to hear what everyone else is thinking.

You do realise that If you predict Clermont top and Leinster 2nd, that the Scarlets can't then get into the Amlin no mater what they do?

[HERSH]

The HC is dead in the water.

I'm glad it is, for too long it's been played on an uneven playing field.

Let’s hope the English and French clubs set up a new competition that isn't biased towards the same old teams.

[maestegmafia]

Don't fancy Ospreys chances of doing much special at the moment, tough group, Tigers and Toulouse have huge budgets and awesome squads full of top internationals. Two of the highest earning clubs in Europe. It makes a huge difference.

Yeah its tough for Ospreys now they can only afford to field 15 men at a time

Pete mate,

Humour is not your forte, concentrate on your unobjective rugby chat..!

[HERSH]

RIP HC

[maestegmafia]

The HC is dead in the water.

I'm glad it is, for too long it's been played on an uneven playing field.

Let’s hope the English and French clubs set up a new competition that isn't biased towards the same old teams.

You honestly think that English and French teams are currently that disabled playing in the current format...???

[dragonbreath]

Unless the Blues find a front 5 they will cop some humiliating hammerings and the Ospreys without Adam look almost as weak at scrum time. Its a shame the Scarlets have landed such a tough group as they seem to have found a balance following some intelligent recuitment of what look like quality front 5 players.

Come on the English, perhaps they won't take their ball home if we let them win

[HERSH]

The HC is dead in the water.

I'm glad it is, for too long it's been played on an uneven playing field.

Let’s hope the English and French clubs set up a new competition that isn't biased towards the same old teams.

You honestly think that English and French teams are currently that disabled playing in the current format...???

Yes, and the clubs involved must do otherwise they wouldn't want to pull out of the HC.

[1F'sgonnagetya!]

The HC is dead in the water.

I'm glad it is, for too long it's been played on an uneven playing field.

Let’s hope the English and French clubs set up a new competition that isn't biased towards the same old teams.

You honestly think that English and French teams are currently that disabled playing in the current format...???

Yes, and the clubs involved must do otherwise they wouldn't want to pull out of the HC.

Really? Even with the millions and millions the English and French teams have for budgets, you still think they're the handicapped ones?

[HERSH]

Yes.

It's not that difficult to get your head around really when you look at the facts.

By the way, we have a salary cap which is a lot smaller than the French one.

[BoyneRFC]

No point in reasoning with them.

Looks like when the English can't win, they take the ball and go running home to Mummy.

Even when the "bias" rewards clubs like the Tigers with easy groups.

[HERSH]

Don't forget the French!

[HERSH]

If we're talking about who’s being unreasonable how can anyone have an issue of the top 6 teams from the Jeff, Rabo and Top14 qualifying for the HC with the winning league of the HC getting an extra spot plus the winner of the Amilin???????

Seems fair to me.

[BoyneRFC]

The French didn't go off and sign a deal with BT now, did they? Even that stunned the French.

Plus, there aren't any French on here defending their union's pathetic antics.

[GoodinTightSpaces]

Hersh for a man who hates the HC can i suggest changing your profile picture.

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

The French didn't go off and sign a deal with BT now, did they? Even that stunned the French.

Plus, there aren't any French on here defending their union's pathetic antics.

The RFU haven't done anything Boyne, PRC have. It's only fair that you criticise the right people

Tipping pools are open for the HEC:
Heineken European Cup
http://www.superbru.com/heinekencup/pool.asp?p=11023928
Pool name: v2Rugby
Pool code: tykedewy

Amlin Challenge Cup
http://www.superbru.com/amlinchallengecup/pool.asp?p=11023925
Pool name: v2Rugby
Pool code: ellsweld

[Mickado]

Have any English or French clubs actually come out in support of the stance of the PLR?

[BoyneRFC]

Never once have I mentioned the RFU...

[beshocked]

Mickado that proves my point. A soft HC group can propel you to a final and artificially boost your ERC ranking.

PSW I would rather see ranking based on similar to the world rankings. Decent sides give you more points for beating them. Beating Zebre would give you few for example. This would give a fairer reflection.

Why should beating Zebre be equal to beating Leinster? It's not.

Arghhhh. Not this again.

You seem to have a fixed idea in your head of which team is better than which. If rankings do not conform to this notion you have, you want to get rid of them.

I can't see a system which only takes euro games into account that is any fairer than what exists.

Your suggestion may be clear cut when comparing Leinster and Zebre but how do you rank all the teams in between? you want to rank all the teams based on????? to calculate the points that they get for beating each other and then..... rank them based on that?

Ad Mick says no system is absolutely fair, but I can't think of a better one that is not open to someone's opinion of which team is better than which, or else massively overcomplicated.

The current system is so flawed as it is that I would rather see another system. Do you really think Biarritz are the 3rd best side in Europe? Cardiff the 5th best etc?

The ERC rankings are a load of rubbish bar number 1 and 2.

[HERSH]

Hersh for a man who hates the HC can i suggest changing your profile picture.

Why? its not the HC logo!

When have I said I hate the HC?
I'm just not that sorry to see it go as it is no longer a fair competition

Seems to me some of you are beginning to realise that you need the English and French clubs after all.

Next.

[HERSH]

Never once have I mentioned the RFU...

Unions!!!!!!!!

[gowales]

I think it'll be

Sarries
Toulouse
Quins (Top seeds)
Biarritz
Saints
Clermont
Leinster
Toulon

Drop down to Amlin

Ulster
Edinburgh
Montpellier

[asoreleftshoulder]

Hersh for a man who hates the HC can i suggest changing your profile picture.

Why? its not the HC logo!

When have I said I hate the HC?
I'm just not that sorry to see it go as it is no longer a fair competition

Seems to me some of you are beginning to realise that you need the English and French clubs after all.

Next.

You are implying that it used to be fair,when was this?Would it have been around the time English teams were dominating it?

[GoodinTightSpaces]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

[BoyneRFC]

Nor have I mentioned the word unions. But do carry on.

[HERSH]

The French didn't go off and sign a deal with BT now, did they? Even that stunned the French.

Plus, there aren't any French on here defending their union's pathetic antics.

Hmmmm!

[HERSH]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

You might want to look up past winners of the HC!

[GoodinTightSpaces]

The French didn't go off and sign a deal with BT now, did they? Even that stunned the French.

Plus, there aren't any French on here defending their union's pathetic antics.

Hmmmm!

union's and unions are technically different words

[BoyneRFC]

Not fair. That word is union's not union.

And by "union's" I meant to say...... Oh look ! A butterfly !!!

[gowales]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

Pathetic post

[GoodinTightSpaces]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

You might want to look up past winners of the HC!

how far back will i go??? to when it was all fair and the english teams were winning

[HERSH]

'Their unions!'

Sort of implies doesn't it

[HERSH]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

You might want to look up past winners of the HC!

how far back will i go??? to when it was all fair and the english teams were winning

Or Pre-Rabo!

[beshocked]

I think it'll be

Sarries
Toulouse
Quins (Top seeds)
Biarritz
Saints
Clermont
Leinster
Toulon

Drop down to Amlin

Ulster
Edinburgh
Montpellier

This is the most sensible prediction I have seen.

Surprised you don't have Munster somewhere though.

[Knowsit17]

Fair. As in when even more lenient rules applied for the Celtic clubs, in other words an Irish/Welsh side didn't even have to win European silverware for its fellows to attain HC qualification. The only telling difference from the English side was that Jeff sides were still winning it or at least making finals on a regular basis.

That is Hersh's and, I suspect, the PRL's definition of fair. An outcome of the comp counting on more than simply playing well. An outcome counting on wider representation also, even with the English having more clubs entered every year than each respective Rabo union.

[gowales]

I think it'll be

Sarries
Toulouse
Quins (Top seeds)
Biarritz
Saints
Clermont
Leinster
Toulon

Drop down to Amlin

Ulster
Edinburgh
Montpellier

This is the most sensible prediction I have seen.

Surprised you don't have Munster somewhere though.

I'm not really impressed by Munster's squad this year, they've lost a lot of the old golden boys and there's a new coach trying to implement a different style. Thomond Park "factor" (A.K.A blind reff) will probably play a part though.

To be honest I think it could go either way between Munster, Edinburgh and Racing for the 2nd spot but i'm quite confident that Sarries will top it with their settled squad.

[maestegmafia]

I think it'll be

Sarries
Toulouse
Quins (Top seeds)
Biarritz
Saints
Clermont
Leinster
Toulon

Drop down to Amlin

Ulster
Edinburgh
Montpellier

Very unsurprisingly you think that the Welsh teams will do nothing.

[GoodinTightSpaces]

to be fair.......it is.

Also it is quite clear from your post that you dislike/hate the HC.

I completely understand why you would too. you support a poor team in a poor league. the only reason we need the likes of yourself is to make up the numbers old boy.

Next

You might want to look up past winners of the HC!

how far back will i go??? to when it was all fair and the english teams were winning

Or Pre-Rabo!

so you want Ire, Wal, Scot and Ita to be disorganised again wiht no league and with no games bar the HC.

Yeah thats fair alright. no wonder ye won a few HC in the past

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