ABs = Abominable. SA = SFA Rugby definitely the loser

I'm sorry but that match made me angry. I don't get any satisfaction from the ABs denying SA a bonus point and effectively handing the tournament to the ABs.

It was a clash of styles but this was the annoying thing for me. NZ should've been smarter. They knew SA would bring a spoiling game at the breakdown trying to slow down AB ball and competing for possession. To their credit, SA did very well in this regard and it was key to closing down AB continuity and blunting their attack. SA gained a lot of possession and they chose to play a territory game. They wanted to get the ball in the forwards, set up the rolling maul and punch the AB defence through that.

I don't have a problem with those tactics for SA. They executed that plan very well and Meyer should be praising their performance with the exception of 17. Where the game went off the rails for SA was that they did nothing with the excellent platform their forwards provided them. All their hard toil was wasted with woeful passing out wide snuffing out scoring opportunities that they have to make against NZ. They set themselves up but simple basics of passing came unstuck. But the most guilty culprit out there for SA was Morné Steyn. Let's forget his poor goalkicking, his overall game was even poorer. How many times did SA get the turnover, get some front foot ball only to see the ball being kicked too deep to Dagg. Even when the ball came back, Steyn would kick it away again. 17 should've taken out M Steyn in a ruck instead of McCaw. Even Barnes in the second test kicked less ball away than that. The annoying thing for me was that SA's gameplan in the forwards was executed more or less to perfection but they did nothing with it. It took individual brilliance from Habana to create something out of nothing. Pienaar was also guilty of kicking too deep and throwing away vital possession. It wouldn't have been so bad if they had been angled kicks into touch and applying pressure from their lineout (which was the poorest aspect of SA's forwards' play and might have influenced that decision to keep the ball in play). SA didn't have to do much with the ball. Often even when they were running laterally across the park they were still creating enough opportunities simply by holding onto the ball and then all the AB pressure would be relieved by an aimless kick.

NZ were poor at the breakdown and didn't protect the ball well. They should've been wiser to SA's play and only late in the second half did they get a roll on and then disappointingly they fell off and looked average. It was a well taken try by Dagg early on but too often they lost the ball at key moments. Cruden and Nonu looked poor out there and Weepu was slow and indecisive at ruck time. When Smith came on, the communication between his forwards improved and we looked sharper in clearing the ball away. But I'm surprised Barrett didn't get a run because Cruden didn't create anything and his miss on Habana set up SA's try.

NZ discipline was poor and only SA's replacement took the gloss off that fact. We didn't adapt well to the ref and we got punished consistently throughout the match. We didn't set up the counter attack well which was inexcusable given how much ball we got. We kicked too much away and I thought we were better suited to keeping the ball and running it back more.

Really I think SA did enough up front to win this game and only their pathetically negative tactics in the backs let them down. NZ were made to look average once again on attack because they didn't get enough roll on and enough continuity in possession to make use of it. So what were we left with. Two sides incapable of clicking, a stop start game with way too much kicking. Truly a frustrating game to watch and one that makes me disillusioned with the coaching team. Results may matter to many but frankly as an AB supporter we demand performance as well and that's four games now where our attack has been blunted and made to be ineffective. That's not good enough. Scoring a try for 103 games in a row doesn't take away from the fact our attack was poor tonight. I got no satisfaction from that win. Boo hoo you might say as a neutral and SA have every right to be more angered by letting that game slip away from them. I agree. Just not much to take out of that game. Both sides should feel let down by that performance.

Ouch.

Remember though three of those matches were against the Number 2 and 3 sides in the world, while the 4th was played in atrocious conditions.

Kia

Does the AB performance worry you knowing the huge injury lists of both SA and Aus and what is essentially a 60 minute Argy competitive pack?

From what Ive seen so far the NH teams should be confident come the AI's, Aus and SA are both very beatable right now, they are both struggling and NZ arent looking great squeezing past.

The issue for me is that in the past when NZ would pip these games at the post the opposition was stronger and you always felt NZ had that extra gear if needed, I don't think thats the case at present, the AB's are being spoilt, are struggling to set the platform and that performance against Argy and now SA means the pack (tight 5 in particular) are struggling in play.

Kia,
I don't think you made a single point there that I can disagree with. Good post.

Very good summary Kia. I'm in agreement. The commentators at one stage mentioned how the Bok forwards were repeatedly doing superb work to get go-forward ball only for the backs to kick the ball to Dagg & co who would run the ball right back, from wence the Boks forwards would have to start all over again.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I don't have a problem with those tactics for SA. They executed that plan very well and Meyer should be praising their performance with the exception of 17. Where the game went off the rails for SA was that they did nothing with the excellent platform their forwards provided them. All their hard toil was wasted with woeful passing out wide snuffing out scoring opportunities that they have to make against NZ. They set themselves up but simple basics of passing came unstuck. But the most guilty culprit out there for SA was Morné Steyn. Let's forget his poor goalkicking, his overall game was even poorer. How many times did SA get the turnover, get some front foot ball only to see the ball being kicked too deep to Dagg. Even when the ball came back, Steyn would kick it away again. 17 should've taken out M Steyn in a ruck instead of McCaw. Even Barnes in the second test kicked less ball away than that. The annoying thing for me was that SA's gameplan in the forwards was executed more or less to perfection but they did nothing with it. It took individual brilliance from Habana to create something out of nothing. Pienaar was also guilty of kicking too deep and throwing away vital possession. It wouldn't have been so bad if they had been angled kicks into touch and applying pressure from their lineout (which was the poorest aspect of SA's forwards' play and might have influenced that decision to keep the ball in play). SA didn't have to do much with the ball. Often even when they were running laterally across the park they were still creating enough opportunities simply by holding onto the ball and then all the AB pressure would be relieved by an aimless kick.

If only...and then both could suffer injuries and then Goosen would have to start

Wow Kia,
If I didn't know, I would have thought both teams lost. You slammed both teams pretty well. Clearly not great Rugby from either side. But you won, and, as been said over and over, the signs of a good team is when they played poorly and still win. So, I would sit, have a beer, and be happy you have the W. I would impagine Bok supporters are sticking needles into the Steyn and Meyer dolls right now...........

Morné Steyn keeps making more and more mistakes. Can't ever see into someone's state of mind, but clearly needs a rest, and probably away from Rugby for a while. Do have to wonder at the outcome if not for the Yellow Card (which was legit)............

Stateing the obvious The Boks had nothing to lose they came to stop the All Blacks playing which they did.All Blacks should have expected it and not be so naive as to think just running everything would be enough.Also this is not a settled AB side either,15,14,10,even 9,4,6 all have had few starts at this level.The combinations are not yet there,judging by the number of goal kicks missed.Maybe playing inside a closed dome may have effected it,also maybe mentally they beleived the hype.That the Boks had no chance etc,same attitude as in Irish Second Test.To have virtually won the 4Ns with two to play without getting out of second gear bodes ill for Europe when they start clicking.Of Course lose both there last two matches pointless,and mathematically both the Boks and Oz could still take the title with 2 or 3 bonus point wins respectively.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kia

Does the AB performance worry you knowing the huge injury lists of both SA and Aus and what is essentially a 60 minute Argy competitive pack?

From what Ive seen so far the NH teams should be confident come the AI's, Aus and SA are both very beatable right now, they are both struggling and NZ arent looking great squeezing past.

The issue for me is that in the past when NZ would pip these games at the post the opposition was stronger and you always felt NZ had that extra gear if needed, I don't think thats the case at present, the AB's are being spoilt, are struggling to set the platform and that performance against Argy and now SA means the pack (tight 5 in particular) are struggling in play.

Not too sure about that bluesman. Yes SH rugby is not brilliant right now but it was only a few months ago that we saw the NH teams play the SH teams and it was mostly won by the SH.

What really got my goat is that the ABs have had 4 games in a row now with much the same tactics thrown against them and we've learnt nothing it seems. Of course if we're willing to play this high octane game, the opposition will not want us to lift the tempo. So expect spoiling play at the breakdown. What have we done to counter this. Where is the plan to create space? What's the good of having a strapping young lad on the wing in Savea if you're not going to have a crack? All week Jane was saying we're going to have some fun sending it back. Well I saw plenty of ball but not too many attacks from deep.

As for SA, how can you get so much possession and then so callously throw it away without testing the opposition defence. SA weren't doing much with the ball when they did retain possession but NZ looked stretched at the little they shifted it and then all that pressure was relieved with a nothing kick. I hope Biltong didn't watch the match because I fear his favourite entertainment system would've had the living daylights beaten out of it and thrown at. If SA had scored more points, maybe we would've seen the ABs have to pull something special out of the bag. To see two teams go at it like that with only showing a glimmer of what they're capable of on attack, I couldn't help but feel desperately short changed.

As for the NH tour, bluesman, I think England and Wales are our obvious threats but away games in Argentina, SA and Brisbane are good preparation for that. We aren't playing well at the moment but that can change. The main focus now is winning the 4N and we've succeeded in that. Our next target is to win these two very difficult away games we have and then keep the Aussies winless in Brisbane. If they win those, then a world record is in sight and we have a lot to play for. Lose any of those and that pressure might lift and that might well spell trouble for the north. Either way, it's going to be a tough ask to beat this team. We're not playing well at the moment and still are finding a way to win. That's the only consolation for these stilted performances.

Do you think this has to do with the change in guard kia...henry n co vs hansen and his lot?

Although were winning at a pinch we could have lost up three by now...

I have read a fair amount of rubbish posted about this current All Blacks side so it is time to put the record straight.Firstly Hansen is obviously trying to emulate Graham Henry`s success,BUT remember Henry took over in 2004 and it was 2005 when he started getting it right.Post RWC 2011 there was the usual exedous all the experienced Props,10s,and 12 `s plus Muliana,Kaino,Thorn and Cowan.Injuries to Boric,Ali Williams,Kahui,Toeva[sadly finishing his career]Colin Slade.This side isn`t the RWC winning side,it`s a team struggling to make its own way.It isn`t 14-0 it`s 7-0,some of the problems are self inflicted the new prop isn`t.As good as either Ben Franks or Wyatt Crockett until he is he has no right to a team place .The Pumas were taken to lightly,so I think was this match versus the Boks.This team has`nt been playing badly it has played as well as the other sides let them.tinkering around the fringes isn`t helping.This side despite what Chieftain fans think is built around the Crusaders/Hurricanes with the odd extra player thrown in.Versus the Pumas it was the familiarity of the Hurricane backs that secured the win.Yesterday you had a 10pt win against the Boks and were behind for just one minute in the whole match.What do you expect the Boks would stand back and let you score as you liked it was a REAL Test match."Why did`nt you see the ABs running from deep?with the backs lying flat or hanging back for kicks?What have Ben Franks or Ben Smith done to be rejected they both played well.The missing ingriedent is obvious Dan Carter,Cruden better than him?in your dreams NO ONE is in World Rugby.I read a comment on Planet Rugby the backs coach Ian Foster ex Chiefs back Coach was the problem.With a complete Hurricane back line bar Dagg.Take the positives you have found a great 9,2 good 4`sand 10,a world class 5,and 15.
You are also still winning,the next two games are tough away fixtures a narrow win maybe in Argentina the Pumas are building nicely.Probably a loss in Jo Burg or a narrow win if DC is on board.The 3rd Bledisloe in OZ a waste of time except to the bean counters then the AI`s.Hopefully some new faces for Europe mainly of the bench.

Yeah well this time last week weepu was superior to smith. Glad that one is sorted.
Muliana, Cowan, Boric,Ali Williams, Kahui,Toeva, Colin Slade have already been replaced by better players. Other than mils and a prehistoric ali, none of that lot were core to the AB success, all injured most of that time. Carters ability to make the field ar crucial times also make him a passenger. Didn't win either world cup and is again missing at the business end of things.

The problem with this side I think is theyre just not getting the timing right. The balance between upping the tempo and being patient isn't right. They have managed to get up on top gradually throughout the match with the three close ones...ireland, argie, last night and to some extent the oz match I sydney.

At 100% we don't have as much to complain about but the wins are coming the hard way. Were lucky with injuries and results would be different if other sides had their full complement.

Taylorman,to just say an injured player have already been replaced by BETTER players is a big statement.In 2008 Anton Boric and after 20 minutes Jeremy Thrush outplayed Botha and Matfield at the "House of Pain"no mean feat for a pair with 3 caps between them.Only a brilliant solo try at death knock from the Boks won the game they were under the cosh all game surprising as Thorn was suspended and Williams injured after 20 minutes.Colin Slade fit and given a decent run is on a par with Cruden he`s a Merthens Clone no bad thing.Toeva never established himself thru injury,Kahui when fit is as good a 13 as any in the World.A Bold statement but true Conrad and him at 12 and 13, I would love to see.Jimmy Cowan was very much part of the AB success and first choice starting 9,in the 9th forward type of scrum halves.To just rubbish a man because he is no longer part of the team is just convenient.Ali Williams has been carrying an injury almost since 2008,and is not the player he was after two Achilles ops is very true.I doubt he will ever start regularly again but he does`nt deserve to be rubbished.Two Locks with about 5 caps between them have to PROVE they are better long term just not the odd match they have started well.Point is this is very much a team finding it`s way keeping DC on the park and fit is the key.In many ways the All Blacks are as one dimensional as the Boks.There appears no longer to be a plan B,every team now knows how to Counter them now.Knowing and applying the knowledge is two seperate things,the ABs currently have the best Captain in the Game and arguably the best player.
When he has Dan Carter on the park he has the flexibility to alter the game plan on the fly.That is not yet true of Cruden or Slade,or all the young hopefuls out there.The Wallabies play the counter attacking game better than any side in the world.There Backs as a group are probably the best in the World,but they seldom have the forward platform to perform there skills.So far you 3 from 3 versus the next 2 world rated sides and without DC in some of those.All three teams are rebuilding to a large extent and SA especially are further down that road.BUT except for choice of various experts,Burger,Bismarck Du Plessis,and Petiersen.Would be certain starters Hougaard/Lambie and Goosen would be in my team .Lambie at 15 ,Hougaard/Goosen at 9 and 10,Pietersen with Steyn in mid field .They lack experience but Goal kicking is there ,plus the unexpected on Morne Steyn his confidence has gone.It is effecting his game BUT on Saturday he gave himself away,with a brilliant dummy and side step before clearing.The Bok plan apart from giving it a lash and trying to keep the score down wasn`t apparent.

Alan you have been rubbishing every new player that comes along. There is NO comparison between cruden and Slade. Slade has done nothing at international level but get injured.

Boric 20 minutes five years ago?
Come on.

I have never liked cowan. Nor Ellis. Theyre limited at test level, had years behind the cream of packs and never rose abive 'useful'. Weepu occasionally. In the three full careers smith has played better tests already in his short career- certainly at a comparative age.

Kahui is fragile at test level, so until he proves otherwise, a non event. Not as effective as conrad smith and didnt last long enough to establish his position. You can't rely on players who can't last more than two or three tests.

And ali does deserve to be rubbished. He's proved he's not good enough several times yet kept harping on about how good he still is. If he'd taken hs medicine then fine but he didn't. Yap yap...no delivery.

Carter has been a liability for some years now. Thats why we need the crudens and barrets. When's the last time carter was standing at the end of either a winning wcup, 3N, or sxv title. Years?

You called smith rubish last week, citing weepu as the more experienced blah blah. This week you say weepus not up to it but no kudos for smith? Funny that. Change perhaps still hard to accept?

Well Taylorman, I wasn't too happy with Cruden. If Carter were fit then I'd prefer him against the Boks or the Pumas. I don't think you can blame Carter for his World Cup injury or the fact the Crusaders haven't quite kicked on in the semis. He still has a lot to contribute to this side and I think management are doing the right thing not rushing him back. He's certainly not in the same camp as Weepu. Besides, Cruden was average to say the least against both the Boks and the Pumas. It's not all his fault. Nonu doesn't know his game as well as SBW and I think we've seen how much SBW contributed or could contribute in a black shirt in that position.

It's our attack in general that's not clicking. Our ball retention has been poor in the last couple of games. Tricky conditions in Wellington and the Boks played an effective spoiling game but that shouldn't happen. There was a moment after the yellow card that we looked sharp and were making good metres. Then that suddenly disappeared and whether or not we were holding back or not, it didn't make for pretty viewing.

A side that is still rebuilding doesn't cut it for me. The locks and Messam are not settled and Smith's inclusion is for the better. Look at the continuity of the AB side in comparison with the injuries of SA and Australia and we should be doing better.

SA stubbornly persisted with their ludicrous kicking game and apart from the Habana try, never asked too many questions of the ABs. But that doesn't excuse another shoddy performance on attack. Of course getting the win matters but so too does the manner of the win. At least for NZ. Those are the excessive demands placed on them. They haven't been living up to them recently. Is it too much to ask? Yes. We've won 4 from 4. Will we continue to demand better? You bet.

The frustration is there because Hansen has more or less handled the transition well. We've blooded some exciting new talent and we look capable of dominating a game. It's just that we haven't and this has not been helped that our opponents have not asked too many questions of us. I can forgive a change in emphasis because of so many injuries facing SA and Australia. But what frustrated me most was that SA had the players and were winning the forward battle to put themselves into a winning position. They threw the game away with senseless kicking. If they had asked questions of the NZ defence and put more points on the board I would've seen how this team can react to pressure. That day will come soon enough and this bumbling performance on attack won't cut it.

Nonu is deciding his future but management should be looking at alternatives in any event as there's a definite hole in the 12 shirt in terms of cover. As for Cowan and Weepu (not to mention Williams) it's beyond seeing what they contributed Alan. It's what they can offer now and whether they measure up to the current set of players. No way Weepu with his 95 kg is up the game of Smith, TJ or TK. Sure he has experience but this is the ABs. You can't have passengers because you've got so many caps. It's not a decision to take lightly but Weepu was a good yard or two behind the game.

I'm not saying carter is not a better overall option than cruden, I'm just saying carter can't be relied upon. He's already spent half this s15 out, was out latter world cup stages and has been out at the business end now.

This disjointed availability must have an ongoing impact to the coaches ability to build a stable gameplan given the two play different styles.

Overall I just think its getting easier to become a competitive team if you focus on defence. We have it sorted and as we are able to offer a little more on attack generally get there. Arg, SA and even oz have very good defences and its becoming harder and harder to break them down.

Its not as if they aren't trying. The balls being flung around with reckless abandon sometimes but there's just too many defensive bodies on the field to gain the upper easily.

If you take away offloads from the All black year, how many tries do you thing we would have...very few from what I can recall. Even daggs try required two highly skilled passes off the deck, in tackles, to put dagg away.

Offloads are by far the best way of beating defences. That's because they're THE fastest way of clearing the breakdown...I.e. before it even begins. I think we underestimate what sbw has brought to our game. You wouldnt have see Reade and Whitelock passing like that before this season. But it seems that's now what it takes.

Fair enough mate. Yeah SBW brought a new dimension and at least he left an offloading legacy that hopefully the rest of the team can master. We have scored a lot from the offload but we've also dropped a lot of those balls. It's definitely a work in progress.

If Carter is not to be relied on for a while until he gets his calf right then I thought it was a missed opportunity not to put Barrett on in the second half when the other changes came on. If the kid is in the squad then he should be up to the challenge of playing. He seemed up for it in the third test against Ireland and Cruden himself doesn't have a good track record with injuries so he might well have to play in any event in the near future. The more minutes he gets at first five the better in my opinion. Cruden wasn't playing well in my opinion so give the young kid a shot. That sends a message to Cruden like it did to Weepu that his performance wasn't up to scratch and he needs to raise his game.

Thought you were in the Algarve for the weekend Kia.

Cheers for the posts all, makes my missing the game and going a wedding in Germany seem like the right option.

Is Foster screwing up the backs? Starting to seem like it. It's SA though so was grateful to read the result on my phone. And if Morne Steyn missed that many...wow.

Was just very physical disney, punctuated by kicks, stoppages. With the kicks SA could have lead by 20 other things being equal so we never felt threatened.

The two tries were great though. Dagg started it from the back, though a couple of handles and two offloads from sam and read back to dagg who circled them all.

Smiths was a cheeky solo run from the 22.

Good match where we just can't seem to get continuity.

So,I know nothing about Rugby?until you play a settled team it is difficult to judge.There is no argument that Aron Smith is the find of the year and should be starting.Weepu has seldom played for more than about 30 minutes,and benching Smith was a mistake discipline or not.It seems you are loathe to face facts to Smith had a poor game versus the Pumas,Cruden average against both Pumas and Boks.Weepu isn`t a starting Scrum half but you would`nt have had the RWC without him last year.When has Slade been given a decent run at 10?to be chucked in at a RWC with hardly a start was an accident waiting to happen.You don`t like Jimmy Cowan? fine was a journeyman but what he was good at he was the best in World Rugby Defence and he shut Will Genia down virtually everytime they met.Can you honestly say Nonu and SBW really worked?great as individuals but as a pair.When Dan Carter WAS playing he was and still is a cut above other 10`s.and you call him rubbish?Players get injured fact of life to be pedantic it was the reviled Stephen Donald who won you the RWC .He was`nt as bad as he was painted Cruden was`nt to clever when he started at test level.Ali Williams is gone that I agree he was very Good whatever you think.Achilles tendon is usually a Career finishing injury he did his twice!!!Hansen seems to think he`s worth persisting with not I,Boric has`nt had the chances to prove otherwise.Playing with the Blues in terminal disarray tho to be fair they could hardly hardly field a team this season.When did Carter last win 3Ns,RWC,or a S!5?They could have won the 3Ns 2011 if they had bothered,Crusaders had a phenomanal Super 15 in 2011,and Carter was part of the RWC side and has Winners medal to prove it.Hosae Gear has one for holding the tackle bags,had one great season and done nothing much since.Face facts The Chiefs won the S15 how many members are in the AllBlack?.It is based around Crusaders Forwards and the Hurricanes back line still.{That includes Cruden]Graham Henry had 8 years to build his team and after 4 he STILL did`nt know his best side.How many players got a couple of caps and moved on.Masoe,Luaki,LuaLua,Reihana,McAlister[one good season] Scott Hamilton,Greg Rawlinson many of those were journey men.
You want instant fixes,The AllBlacks are winning but not yet impressing because the settled combinations arn`t there.Are you among those who said McCaw was finished?This is very young exciting side,remember post RWC England were losing matches galore.The Boks at the same stage had lost to the injury riddled Lions and were lucky not to lose a second and to the Wallabies.There is huge depth in Nz Rugby and people like Jason Eaton who could do a job if required.
Until you get a settled side it won`t happen and just trying to run sides off there feet won`t always happen.Bringing on Barrett versus the Boks on saturday would have been suicide,incidentally expect a Bok win in Joburg.

emack2 wrote:So,I know nothing about Rugby?until you play a settled team it is difficult to judge.There is no argument that Aron Smith is the find of the year and should be starting.Weepu has seldom played for more than about 30 minutes,and benching Smith was a mistake discipline or not.It seems you are loathe to face facts to Smith had a poor game versus the Pumas,Cruden average against both Pumas and Boks.Weepu isn`t a starting Scrum half but you would`nt have had the RWC without him last year.When has Slade been given a decent run at 10?to be chucked in at a RWC with hardly a start was an accident waiting to happen.You don`t like Jimmy Cowan? fine was a journeyman but what he was good at he was the best in World Rugby Defence and he shut Will Genia down virtually everytime they met.Can you honestly say Nonu and SBW really worked?great as individuals but as a pair.When Dan Carter WAS playing he was and still is a cut above other 10`s.and you call him rubbish?Players get injured fact of life to be pedantic it was the reviled Stephen Donald who won you the RWC .He was`nt as bad as he was painted Cruden was`nt to clever when he started at test level.Ali Williams is gone that I agree he was very Good whatever you think.Achilles tendon is usually a Career finishing injury he did his twice!!!Hansen seems to think he`s worth persisting with not I,Boric has`nt had the chances to prove otherwise.Playing with the Blues in terminal disarray tho to be fair they could hardly hardly field a team this season.When did Carter last win 3Ns,RWC,or a S!5?They could have won the 3Ns 2011 if they had bothered,Crusaders had a phenomanal Super 15 in 2011,and Carter was part of the RWC side and has Winners medal to prove it.Hosae Gear has one for holding the tackle bags,had one great season and done nothing much since.Face facts The Chiefs won the S15 how many members are in the AllBlack?.It is based around Crusaders Forwards and the Hurricanes back line still.{That includes Cruden]Graham Henry had 8 years to build his team and after 4 he STILL did`nt know his best side.How many players got a couple of caps and moved on.Masoe,Luaki,LuaLua,Reihana,McAlister[one good season] Scott Hamilton,Greg Rawlinson many of those were journey men.
You want instant fixes,The AllBlacks are winning but not yet impressing because the settled combinations arn`t there.Are you among those who said McCaw was finished?This is very young exciting side,remember post RWC

England were losing matches galore.The Boks at the same stage had lost to the injury riddled Lions and were lucky not to lose a second and to the Wallabies.There is huge depth in Nz Rugby and people like Jason Eaton who could do a job if require
Until you gtet a settled side it won`t happen and just trying to run sides off there feet won`t always happen.Bringing on Barrett versus the Boks on saturday would have been suicide,incidentally expect a Bok win in Joburg.

Well I'm not gonna answer all that except I never said carter was rubbish, I said he wasn't reliable and has had to regularly be replaced. Wellington test was the
worst and windiest day of the year. I know because I was in it so you can only do so much in that weather.

Barret on on Saturday would be suicide. Why? He's been on the field this year and has excelled. He was one of the best tens of the sxv.

With your thinking alan you would have had ellis, ali, donnelly, cowan etc etc. You wouldn't have had any of the newbies anywhere near the side until the AIs. You said that yourself. The careers of romano, retalick, smith, barrett wouldn't even have started yet. You may not follow the latest in sxv here but to be taken seriously about AB selections you need to be up with the latest form rather than keep backing players from previous tests/ years alone. If you had you would know there would be no concern with barret going on. He's been a picture of consistency at every level this year.

There was something Genia-esque about that Smith snipe for the try on Saturday.

This was one part of his game that had not been lauded as he was seen as brought in as a very quick distributor and sharp reader of the game. In fact TJ Perenara has been seen more as offering this kind of game.

Now that it was executed against The Top Opposition in the toughest rugby tournament, under pressure, I wonder if we are not seeing the greatest 9 ever to play the game in action in Aaron Smith?

Lets get a couple of things straight,I was the first here to back and push for Luke Romano starting.I was talking about players like Donnelly,Boric,or Eaton providing injury cover.Cowan was gone,Weepu was never a starter,Ellis was never given a chance.But for injury it`s a fair bet T.J Perenara would have
been starting NOT Smith.Smith is very good but not yet experienced at test level,also there was big part of the country.For Starting Andre Taylor over Isreal Dagg.Barett is not yet a test player and last saturday was`nt the time to start him.Carter did his groin which is a difficult injury to recover from when he plays he`s a cut above the rest.Cruden has only part of his play book as Hansen has admitted.Foster is being blamed for screwing up the backs by Chiefs fans are you one.Wayne Smith is the man for the job but walked away,I would have liked to see what John Kirwan could do as backs coach.It is a fine line between a winning team and a settled team.Like it or not this IS a team that is rebuilding,and there are many excellent young players out there.BUT get it wrong bring them into early kill there confidence.Chances are you will lose them to Nz Rugby.There are players in Super Rugby who just cruise knowing there AB shirt is more or less safe.When they put the AB shirt on they are transformed
Nonu,Muliana,Mealamu,Cory jane,and for limied periods Weepu.There is a very real problem for the AB`s most of the squad are 27 or over and won`t all make the RWC 2015.It is not acceptable to the NZ public to lose so wide spread changes arn`t going to be made.BUT positions like Hooker you need to be thinking about starting another.Hore/Mealamu with Bismarck Du Plessis are the worlds best but are unlikely to make 2015.Savea does`nt look the goods yet.Hosae Gear is in and out.Would you be better with a player like Guildford who looks for work and creates gaps for others.I come here to debate rugby not rubbish other peoples comments,and all here know that most of my opinions are valid even if you don`t agree with them.When Hansen named Weepu to start I thought it was because of his greater expere ince NOT because
Smith was being disciplined.When he was on he did some things for players like Savea.Who should have been on his wave length but was`nt,nit pick all you like.
The All Blacks are 7-0 and would expect to beat Los Pumas away to take the title.On average ABs lose about 2 games out of 15 this year wil probably the same.Boks away and the 3rd Bledsiloe maybe,can`t see them losing in Europe unless they have chronic injuries.

I think he learned from weepu from the previous week that he's got to be aware more of his potential as a runner as well as a passer, and that you can have a go at any level. I think he had it stuck in his mind that he's there for his passing and focussed on that. Weepu was a wake up call.

Perenaras a lot more assertive in that area. For a time nothing would hold him back in getting to the line and he will certainly push smith and kerr B for the position, possibly the best of the three, certainly the most dynamic.

Barrets already been on twice this year alan including more than half the 60 nil against ireland and came on vs argie. Was part of the u20 winning side and has starred for the canes this year. Was more than ready to come on against SA.'suicide'? Bit over dramatic perhaps? In fact if it was ok for steyn to be out there(now that was actually suicide) half the itm 10s could have played and done better.

I'm a fan of Barrett, would you say he has a similar style to DC in that he's fairly relaxed amongst the chaos?

This is going to sound arrogant, but do we go for the record or lessen our chances by giving more experience to the Barretts and TKBs in the remaining 4Ns and AIs? I'm sure they could do a job when things are going smoothly but we have a habit of getting well ahead of ourselves and tripping on banana skins when teams show us up.

We learnt with the WC and we have to focus without getting too cute. Assuming no injuries, 10-20 mins here and there for newbies and no more than 2 on the field at a time, or else players will start missing touch.

I think suicide was is not the word. When you look at it, what difference really is there between Barrett and Cruden? Both are wet behind the ears in terms of test rugby. Cruden to me wasn't playing well and we have the bench not just for cover or adding fresh legs but for impact. Let's see what he has to offer at this level. He's looked pretty handy when he has come on. I do think we need to give these guys some game time. Smith has got his chance and taken it, Romano and Retallick have done enough to allow some faith placed in them and for them to grow in their roles.

The thing that really annoyed me about Dunedin was that the Boks had won enough ball and had got one over us at the breakdown to win that game. Their nonsensical kicking game allowed us to go into our shells and we never really saw the ABs cranking it up to get themselves into the game because they felt they didn't have to.

So far I've seen teams trying to smother us in defence and slow down our ball. One day we'll come up against a team who ticks the scoreboard over and puts real pressure on us. Maybe it's too much to ask for SA and Oz with their injuries but the Boks had the chance to win that game. Our defence looks very solid but I'm not too convinced about the attack at the moment. I've rarely seen a run of tests where the ABs have bumbled their way through their attack. Their offload game they want to play is high risk but what about other ways of unlocking the opposition defence? I haven't seen much patience or ball retention. It's pretty ugly frankly and I don't care whether I come across as unreasonable when I gripe about that.

Justin Marshall believed Smith had an average game: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/7688096/Action-man-McCaw-a-level-above-everyone-else

No more, no less. I thought it was Cruden who missed the tackle but that was a big miss on Habana. Other than that, I'm not too sure what was wrong with his kicking game and Marshall doesn't pinpoint any other weak areas. I didn't think Smith had a blinder by any stretch but I can't help but think maybe Justin is a bit miffed at how everybody is raving about that pass and he's the best thing since sliced bread in a long while at halfback for NZ. He's got a lot to learn and to improve but average seems a very harsh assessment after Weepu's turgid display.

Saw another article saying maybe we're too hard to please: http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/our-experts/7687749/A-win-is-a-win-but-are-we-too-hard-to-please

Well of course we are. But that doesn't excuse four tests where we've failed to get continuity and look clinical on attack. Who cares if we're too hard to please. I want bloody perfection!

I would suggest it might be a good thing for the All Blacks to lose a few matches.

Perhaps it will root their pundits and supporters to the ground a little.

They have won some matches in recent time because the opposition to a certain extent self imploded.

Certainly the Boks did after doing more than enough with their forwards to have won the match.

Greyling's implosion, Steyn's poor performance and a few flopped opportunities made enough of a difference for the All Blacks to have played their "get out of jail free card"

Nothing better than a few losses to address the perceptions.

I'm pretty pessimistic about our chances in Soweto now despite not having seen the game. I thought we'd have learnt from the battle with Argentina about how to play when you're not winning the collisions and it seems as though NZ were outplayed and were lucky.

I don't think it's good for rugby that NZ can play a crap game against SA and win. If we don't play well SA should be good enough to teach us a lesson and obviously that hasn't happened for obvious reasons. I'm sure the NH will be slagging SH rugby in the press but they have a point in that Argentina are the only side that has exceeded expectations. I'm getting more and more worried as I've gone from "Ah the ABs aren't far off clicking" to "Are they ever going to click" and am really hoping I'm not thinking "Ah Foster's screwed the pooch with the backline and now we've lost our cutting edge" by the end of the RC.

We go for the record. Sod the development. They're still Tests. So we aim to win each one and hence the record will take care of itself. Having said that it's gonna be bloody hard and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we stall at 15. So the team had better pull finger and hope Meyer doesn't relocate his brain and start Goosen.

I was in Andorra disney with shaky reception. I was shaking by the end of it. Frankly neither side deserved to win that one.

We're winning ugly at the moment. Not much has stood out for me this 4N from an AB perspective other than our defence and we've been wafted a hint of what our attack can do but the aroma has been all too fleeting.

The remaining games for the ABs are going to be super tough. Frankly that's a good thing. Raising the bar of expectation might be enough to see us work harder to try to win the game. We've been tested but not held long enough on the ropes or tired out on defence to know what we're capable of.

La Plata and Soweto provide much sterner tests and that's the best way to end this tournament in my opinion. I can easily see us lose one of the games and wouldn't even be surprised to see us lose both. The players hopefully will approach the matches with that opinion in the back of their minds. NZ seem to be very effective at proving the critics wrong. So far 4 straight wins doesn't give much ammo. The threat of a loss might see us more focused, notably on attack.

Fat chance of cutting the expectations of NZ fans down to size Biltong. That would be like approaching a game against NZ as a Springbok supporter thinking the match was lost before the ball was played. What I'm secretly hoping is that the game is really taken to the ABs. Under true, sustained pressure is when you really find out where you stand. I just don't think this AB side of Hansen has been placed under enough pressure yet.

Yeah its understandable for fans to want to win well.

When you're winning every match the only up is the way you win, the margin, the accuracy, the scoreline, whatever. They're not there to please the teams who are less fortunate result wise.

When you taste it you want more of it and thats the frustration for NZ fans- they expect to win, but want to win well.

I'm not convinced about Soweto, mainly because SA are in true stuff it up mode. They're gameplan and execution of it is shot. Theyre not winning when they should and their confidence must be down. How the forwards can even talk to the backs after the match is beyond me. In NZ we make our backs far more accountable for the forward effort..."If we tough it up up front you guys better damn well use it properly"...players like Dagg, Nonu, Cruden etc know this.

If the AB pack saw what Steyn and co were doing to their ball time after time there'd be physical scraps after the match. Would have been in my days...

Sure we'll need to pull out something magic in SA, but home advantage alone is only one plus. They've more to make up for.

For this reason I reckon the Steyn train will continue. Starting Goosen is still a risk, especially in Meyers eyes. I think he has reservations in a young, inexperienced player taking the ball into the AB line- its throwing him out of his comfort zone. Thinking that Goosen will somehow be the magic saviour is tempting fate and if he fails against Oz what to do against NZ?

Sure we werent good last weekend and we've room for improvement. Carters back so some normal transmission will resume.

Pressures also all on SA and Meyer and he seems to have no problem reverting to type.

Slightly off subject but pertinent to the future both SA and NZ have great depth in players.Many in the same positions for example 10,12,and 15 seems like every Super franchise has good backup youngsters there .Which is good in some ways but awkward in others because there are only so many test places.Some will get dis gruntled and follow the cash which is sad.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I was in Andorra disney with shaky reception. I was shaking by the end of it. Frankly neither side deserved to win that one.

We're winning ugly at the moment. Not much has stood out for me this 4N from an AB perspective other than our defence and we've been wafted a hint of what our attack can do but the aroma has been all too fleeting.

It is ugly. The All Blacks are using an entirely new attack system, and also varying the classic drifting defence much more with a rushing style and also umbrella style approach reminiscent of both SA and Australia. It's weird to watch. It seems to be taking more time for the system to bed in.

Gone from broken phase play is the coordinated back line, this is being reserved for the set piece, mostly the scrum and the thus far unreliable ball from the back of the lineout. This has been replaced by an attacking style reminiscent of England on steroids. The big carriers are joining in the mid field and trying to punch holes and set targets. But using the big lads as carriers is leaving the ABs short of players to hit and clean the rucks because they seem to be forming the much maligned pod system. Aside from looking like Brian Ashton-lite, the big boys are mixing the direct and central approach with an on-the-shoulder offload, I guess for both direct penetration and also to compress the defence. My guess is that this is supposed to be followed up with Aaron Smith giving some wide distribution to the backs to try to flank the defence. So far it's not working because the execution is poor and the ball is either being dropped in the offload, or the isolated carrier is being turned over because the ruck can't be protected.

Neither SA or Australia really fell for it, and they simply packed the mid field with big defenders, flooded the breakdown and turned over the ball. I suggest the AB coaches take a look at this and maybe go back to something more traditional. Maybe watch the Ireland tapes again and try to remind themselves what they were doing then.

Excellent post AWOP. Hansen would do well to read it.

There was a brief glimmer of using our forwards as the battering rams after the yellow card and we seemed to be right on top. Then a turnover and we went flat and never got that mojo back.

Nonu is not missing anything on defence but on attack he isn't having much effect with these tactics.

I had a brainwave at work and put on the game on YouTube to listen to instead of Richard Pryor.

Didn't seem that NZ were dominated in the collisions as much as I'd thought. Not to the extent of the Argies game. But I do agree sadly with Mark Reason's barbs that NZ need an enforcer. But instead of slagging off who we have now (and I think Romano is promising) we have to concede guys like Thorn and Kaino don't grow on trees.

AWOP Nonu has been awfully quiet and I agree with you in that. Savea was busier than Jane from listening and seemed to acquit himself well without setting the world on fire.

Goosen must, MUST start if the Boks are to improve and beat us. Sadly I think it could be another game like PE where SA dominated us and Steyn gave himself another lifeline.

Our discipline was lacking but I don't have any qualms about the defence which has been fantastic. Just our attack isn't penetrating enough and I don't like relying on pieces of individual brilliance to get us home. We need to be more penetrating.

Wondering if Biltong has a toy walkie talkie to play with like Meyer. I'd imagine his language would be even worse as at least Meyer picked the team. Of course if there are kiddies round....