Union/League

I've been watching a lot of League recently and keeping an eye on the converts in the Aviva Prem. It's interesting how the skills translate. Try to make an England team for League out of Union players and vice versa. It looks like the Union players would function better as a League team to me. My knowledge of Super League players isn't that strong so some positional decisions may seem a bit off. Any proposed changes?

1 - Ben Foden
2 - Chris Ashton
3 - Manu Tuilagi
4 - Tom Croft
5 - Jonathan Joseph
6 - Jonny Wilkinson
7 - Danny Care
8 - James Haskell
9 - Lee Dickson
10 - Ben Morgan
11 - Matt Banahan
12 - Chris Robshaw
13 - Mike Brown


1 - Gareth Hock
2 - Jamie Jones-Buchanan
3 - Danny Tickle
4 - Ben Westwood
5 - Adrian Morley
6 - Sam Burgess
7 - Sean O'Laughlin
8 - Eorl Crabtree
9 - James Roby
10 - Kevin Sinfield
11 - Tom Briscoe
12 - Jonny Lomax
13 - Sam Tomkins
14 - Josh Charnley
15 - Paul Wellens

SuperGuinness69 wrote:

1 - Ben Foden
2 - Chris Ashton
3 - Manu Tuilagi
4 - Tom Croft
5 - Jonathan Joseph
6 - Jonny Wilkinson
7 - Danny Care
8 - James Haskell
9 - Lee Dickson
10 - Ben Morgan
11 - Matt Banahan
12 - Chris Robshaw
13 - Mike Brown

Looks pretty good to me mate. the only change i would make is Waldrum in for Morgan, he can just about last 80 in union let alone a full game of league.

i think it would be way easier to make a league team out of Union players than the other way round. You don't tend to see many "front row fatties" types playing league. Having moved to the SH and watching the NRL you realise how much talent there is in the game. If no one played union instead of league in Oz they would blow everyone off the park on the international and club scene.

Sam burges for the Rabbitos is an absolute beast. Tomkins would also be very useful in the XV man code who knows we may see more of him beeing involved in Union in the future.

Mike Brown at lock? Really? I think Tuilagi would be better at second row in League.

EngInAuck wrote:

Sam burges for the Rabbitos is an absolute beast. Tomkins would also be very useful in the XV man code who knows we may see more of him beeing involved in Union in the future.

Burgess is pretty special I think. If he could get a few good years run at it without injury, he could be the best player in the comp or very near to it.

Agree with Munster as well on Manu. Most of the big bopper centers in union look to me ready made back rowers in the NRL. Combatative, decent hands, and enough game awareness not to just look at the guy they're about to run in to, but also the opportunities to offload that appear round them.

Can anyone explain the positions in league to me as i've been watching more of it recently but struggle to understand the individual roles (i'm thick alright!). having put my Southern prejudice aside i've been very much enjoying the games but feel it would be good if someone could do a 'League for Dummies' article for tards like me!

What don't you get? 1- 7 are the backs 8 - 13 are the forwards.

There are no flankers or lineouts and scrums are a formality. 8 and 10 are the props and 11 and 12 the second rows and these guys usually do the donkey work i.e. carry ball and tackle.

13 is the loose forward and is usually a bit more of a playmaker.

6 and 7 are the halfbacks although the hooker (no 9) usually plays in dummy half, like a scrum half.

The outside backs 1- 5 are pretty similar to their Union counterparts, hence the more successful cross code players have tended to be in these positions.

Pretty much exactly that Rodders, thanks mate, spot on!

A pleasure...until someone who actually knows what they are talking about comes on to say I'm talking bollix..... ....

rodders wrote:A pleasure...until someone who actually knows what they are talking about comes on to say I'm talking bollix..... ....

I was going to reply Rodders ... until you did and then I slunk off and hid behind my shadow for that exact reason

Only thing I would add EE is the hooker is a much more prominent figure in RL than RU. Good hookers (e.g. Cameron Smith) are starting to be worth as much as anyone as the metres and movement around the ruck are where games a being won and lost.

For hooker in RL, see Halfback in RU. Same role effectively (in League commonly referred to as the dummy half or acting half). Piri Weepu would fit this role effectively if he ever decided to go back to his roots.

Also, centres in RL are almost interchangeable as second rows/props in League as they are pretty much the same build. Ruben Wiki one example here.

Postionally, you’re either right or left side on attack, so a second rower would have a combination with his centre and winger for example. You can split the five eighth and lock if you choose to do so too....

MBTGOG wrote:Mike Brown at lock? Really? I think Tuilagi would be better at second row in League.

No I put Mike Brown at loose forward which is a position that is very inter-changable with the backs in League as far as I understand. I have seen Sam Tomkins and Brett Hodgson slot in there sometimes during interchanges and the St Helens loose forward be moved to stand off in some games. I just thought Brown's strong illusive running, good offloading and big boot would be handy here.

Maybe if someone who is a bit more of a League specialist could shed some light on this?

Andy Farrell was a loose forward for most of his career and subsequently ended up an inside centre in Union.

I think the same is true of SBW (or was he only 2nd row?).

The loose forward is sort of halfway between a fly-half and a No8. Would that be fair to say?

You forgot to mention rodders that NZ are both world champs in league and union.

chewed_mintie wrote:For hooker in RL, see Halfback in RU. Same role effectively (in League commonly referred to as the dummy half or acting half). Piri Weepu would fit this role effectively if he ever decided to go back to his roots.

Also, centres in RL are almost interchangeable as second rows/props in League as they are pretty much the same build. Ruben Wiki one example here.

Postionally, you’re either right or left side on attack, so a second rower would have a combination with his centre and winger for example. You can split the five eighth and lock if you choose to do so too....

This is probably the most pertinent point differentiating between the two codes. Most players have their zones of left, right or spine (9,6,7,1,). union could do a lot worse than look at the benefits of playing lefts and rights as opposed to exclusiveness that comes with regarding so much as forwards and backs.

Really appreciate the knowledge guys, sorry to SuperG for hijacking your thread!

aucklandlaurie wrote:

chewed_mintie wrote:For hooker in RL, see Halfback in RU. Same role effectively (in League commonly referred to as the dummy half or acting half). Piri Weepu would fit this role effectively if he ever decided to go back to his roots.

Also, centres in RL are almost interchangeable as second rows/props in League as they are pretty much the same build. Ruben Wiki one example here.

Postionally, you’re either right or left side on attack, so a second rower would have a combination with his centre and winger for example. You can split the five eighth and lock if you choose to do so too....

This is probably the most pertinent point differentiating between the two codes. Most players have their zones of left, right or spine (9,6,7,1,). union could do a lot worse than look at the benefits of playing lefts and rights as opposed to exclusiveness that comes with regarding so much as forwards and backs.

Beg to differ there. League players don't have to support the set piece to any realistic extent so it frees them somewhat from the requirements for the various forward physiques.

Agreed AWOP.

Well Rodders thanks. People have said I have a brain the size of a rodent's but occassionally make a good point anyway.

And your english is getting sooooo much better AWOP!!

Not so long ago that would have said, "people can say I have brain size of rat but can make occasion of good point sometimes!"

It's some all life dedication to learning and improvement CM.

winners are grinners and learners are earners!

rodders wrote:What don't you get? 1- 7 are the backs 8 - 13 are the forwards.

There are no flankers or lineouts and scrums are a formality. 8 and 10 are the props and 11 and 12 the second rows and these guys usually do the donkey work i.e. carry ball and tackle.

13 is the loose forward and is usually a bit more of a playmaker.

6 and 7 are the halfbacks although the hooker (no 9) usually plays in dummy half, like a scrum half.

The outside backs 1- 5 are pretty similar to their Union counterparts, hence the more successful cross code players have tended to be in these positions.

Pretty good summary. A few points that bear a little extension:

Props typically are the guys that do the real heavy work on the first couple of tackles, taking the ball either from first receiver or one out off the scrum half. Early tackles, particularly in defensive positions, will see them simply running hard and straight, attempting to drive through the tacklers, with no intention of an off-load.

11, 12 and 13 are usually a little lighter or more athletic than the props, and may often be pretty well interchangable, although some teams use the 13 as an extra play maker. They will usually carry the ball in slightly wider channels and will often look to get their hands through the tackle and off-load to a supporting runner (either the 6 or one of the centres). Most RU flankers would love these positions, as they are able to commit opponents to the tackle and to take a few risks in off-loading.

The roles of the hooker (9), scrum half (7) and stand-off (6) have already been discussed in brief, but to clarify -
Hooker plays the role of dummy half (something I know a little about, hence the nickname), and is usually the player taking the ball first at each play. The role is like an RU scrum half other than I'd have been killed if I ever box-kicked: distribution to the running first receiver or exploiting space around the play the ball, and important for controlling the pace of the game and the direction of the attacking play.
Scurm half is more of the playmaker role, so is probably a bit more like a 10 in RU - mainly a distributor and supporting player, and quite commonly the main tactical kicker (although obviously kicking from hand is much less common in RL, and it is possible to get a different player into the right position to kick if your SH isn't a good kicker).
Stand off is really more like a play-making 12 in RU - Will Greenwood would have been an outstanding player here, with his combination of good hands, bit of pace and strength and uncanny ability to run support lines.

As already said, the centres, wingers and FB play largely similar roles in both codes, although RL full-backs don't generally need to be good kickers, but are usually very sound one on one tacklers.

Oh, and there is no space in league for someone who tackles like Ronan 'speed bump' O'Gara - even someone as small as Rob Burrows is expected to bring his man down (which he does amazingly for someone of about 11.5 stones).

A good deal of knowledge on display. Anyone care to have a go at putting together a team of players from the opposite code to challenge mine?

Your RU players for RL is a decent effort, although Ashton should probably be excluded because of his past life playing for Wigan. I think Tom Varndell would be a very good replacement, in the Martin Offiah mode - because RL defences are mainly just one line with one sweeper (usually the scrum half)and the full-back, absolute flying wingers are very effective as once they break the main defensive line there's little cover to cut them down. He's also reasonably tall, which makes him a good target for cross kicks.

Also, I don't think Wilkinson would be even a good 6 or Care a great 7 (like your call on Dickson at 9 though, a role Care would also be good at). I'd prefer someone like Anthony Allen or 12trees at 6 (as I said earlier, Will Greenwood would have been fabulous there). Not sure about the 7, as I haven't seen anyone in English RU that runs plays in the way a league SH does. Shane Williams sometimes did for Wales when he got dragged in to SH: capable of an accurate longer pass but also liked to take the ball along the defensive line and look for a little pop pass to runners coming through.

I think some of the league forwards like Morley or Peacock would have been an excellent blindsides in another life.

Owen Farrell as stand off/loose forward ...or is that cheating?...

Not English but I think Stephen Ferris and Sean O'Brien would have been phenomenal in the pack in RL.

Rodders
Agree with much of that - most RL forwards (and some of the bigger centres) could have been excellent at blindside or 8, and most RU back row ball carriers would easily convert to RL 2nd rowers. Ferris and SOB would be amongst the best in the NH at making the conversion (as would Ben Morgan if he could get and stay fit, and Denton looks tailor made for the role).

One further thought - Parisse at either 6 or 13 in RL would have been something worth seeing.

League players would not understand the breakdown for a start, also I do not think they would be happy with any "clearing out " come ruck time, they're a hot headed bunch those league'ers.

LordDowlais wrote:League players would not understand the breakdown for a start, also I do not think they would be happy with any "clearing out " come ruck time, they're a hot headed bunch those league'ers.

Ever heard of a bloke called Brad thorn?

Thorn was a player made good and hard from playing in the NRL and for the Roos's... LOL!

** that's gonna wind heapsa kiwis and union supporters up ** !!!

But really, having played both codes for quite a level myself, at the end of the day, when you get the line in your sights, you just go for it!!!

OZT

I dont know where you could possibly get the idea that it would wind up any Kiwis because Brad thorn did the hard yards with the Broncos, the Maroons and the Kangaroos.

In fact Brad Thorn, by initially turning down the All Black jersey because in his opinion he thought he wasnt ready, earns him nothing but the utmost respect from us Kiwis.

In short its not Brad thorn that winds us up, its actually insult removed like you that think us (Kiwis) are so stupid to even think it would wind us up that attempt to beat the swear filter removed us off the most.

Wish you Ozzies and Kiwis would stop hijacking every thread with your petty bickering, you should be more like us English and Welsh and.. oh wait. Forget that!