H-cup, changes. SRU and FIR likley losers?

First topic message reminder :

The best summary of the H-cup debate, I have found is here.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0915/1224324046581.html

The H-cup Pot seams to be split into two seperate payments to the unions, one for performance (after group stages) and one for taking part.

I don't see the performance payments changing,

However the participation split, is the one the French and English wish changed. Currently

"The would leave about €40 million or thereabouts in basic distributions, of which the IRFU, along with their Welsh and Scottish counterparts, receive about 13 per cent. This equates to approximately €5.2 million each. The Italians are understood to receive marginally less, around 11-12 per cent , equating to roughly €4.4 million.

Roughly half of the basic distribution is divided between the French and English, amounting to approximately €10 million each. On the premise that might is right, as well as having 12 and 14 clubs to share, the English and French will argue for a bigger basic share."


breaking this pot down is appears that currently each Union recieves:
RFU = 25%
FRU = 25%
IRFU = 13%
WRU = 13%
SRU = 13%
FIR = 11%

The way I see it the French and English, will be wanting this changed from a Union based divide to a League based divide (6 teams from each league + H-cup and Almin winners). Currently the Pro 12 unions recieve 50% for the participation pot, I believe that the French and English will want to change this to approx 33.33%, whereby it is split (will change slightly to have H-cup and Almin winners league gain some extra);

RFU = 33%
FRU = 33%
IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR = 33% (and leave it to the Unions to decide how to divide this between themselves)

I believe the Pro 12 will argue for a divide of 8 Pro 12 teams (some or all of qualification based on league position) 6 English and 6 French. For this the split would be;

FRU = 30%
RFU = 30%
IRFU/WRU/SRU/FIR = 40% (and leave it to the Unions to decide how to divide this between themselves)

I believe the second is what will be agreed as it see's the French and English share increase from 25% to 30% and a reduction in number of Pro 12 teams and tougher qualification, plus since with less teams a reduction in payments.

I believe this is what the French were wishing to discuss and threaten pulling out over (and nothing to do with TV deals), and the English TV deal has thrown a complete spanner in the works, for everyone involved and added a new dimension to the talks.

Personally I see that the 4 Pro 12 unions will guarentee one entry per union, with the other 4 being League based.
This means that each H-cup place will be worth 5% of the participation pot.
Meaning the split would be

IRFU and WRU would get between 5-20% each year (from 13% prevously)
SRU and FIR between 5-10% each year (from 13% and 11% prevously)

Think the WRU and IFRU will manage to get around the same money as prevously, maybe even slightly more some years, but will generally average the same.
French and English will both increase by 5%,
The losers are the SRU and FIR who will lose out by 3%-8% each year depending if they get one or two teams in the H-cup.

If all 8 H-cups places are league based it will see.

IRFU and WRU would get between 5-20% each year (from 13% prevously)
SRU and FIR between 0-10% each year (from 13% and 11% prevously)

The losers are (even more so) the SRU and FIR who will lose out by 3%-13% each year depending if they get one or two teams in the H-cup, and recieve 0% if no teams get in top 8.

I think this is the likely outcome of how the H-cup will be run. The TV rights part I have no idea yet and will treat it as a seperate issue.

What are your thoughts would the above be an agreeable solution to you? (TV rights can be discussed on a seperate thread).

LondonTiger wrote:My suggestion reduces Englands entry, has a sensible number of groups, creates a decent second Tier competition and a Third Tier.

I do like your sugestion, it does ensure that all the nations are involved, and provides a path for ambitions sides outside of the three main leagues.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Kingshu - apologies, didn't mean to miss you lot out, after all Ulster have won the HEC (and last seasons finalists)

Thanks but I also think that the English/Welsh clashes bring a lot to it as well, everyone loves an Ospreys v Tigers game.

I think it was Red stag , brought up the point that under the new proposials that the 5% the SRU could get from H-cup may work out worth more than the 13% they currently get.

I perfer to stick to percentages, as if the WRU continue to get around 13% to the SRU 5% they will financally pull away over time.

If the SRU used to get 13%, they will only get 10% now if they qualify both teams meaning a 3% loss on the old deal and rivals over time.
What I think is more important is, is the more likley out come only one team gets into the H-cup and one team in the Almin. It means they get only 5% of the H-cup pot, but how much does the Almin make up for this, will is be the equalivent of 2/3% of H-cup pot? This will be important to the talks.

I can actually see the SRU rushing back the boarders or a 3rd team as soon as possible, to have 2 teams in the Almin, if the prize is increased in this, and to better challange for an extra h-cup place.

How hard is it going to be now to expand the Pro 12, I'd say that a 3rd Scottish or 5th Welsh team would have no chance of gaining entry. Would the other unions ever vote for an extra team from another Union to enter, making it harder on them to gain H-cup qualification??

I'm not sure why people think Scotland will lose out. The way Edinburgh and Glasgow have started the season has been fairly strong already. I wouldnt rule either finishing in the top 6. I'd imagine Leinster & Munster to finish top 6 as well. So basically the big losers could infact be the Welsh Regions. The way the Blues, Ospreys & Dragons are playing at the moment you can rule out a good European or League run.

For me at the moment Scarlets look like the only Welsh team with top 6 place written on them. Granted Ospreys do have the history and pedigree to turn things around but another couple of bad weeks and they may leave themselves to much to do.

Kingshu wrote:I think it was Red stag , brought up the point that under the new proposials that the 5% the SRU could get from H-cup may work out worth more than the 13% they currently get.

I perfer to stick to percentages, as if the WRU continue to get around 13% to the SRU 5% they will financally pull away over time.

If the SRU used to get 13%, they will only get 10% now if they qualify both teams meaning a 3% loss on the old deal and rivals over time.
What I think is more important is, is the more likley out come only one team gets into the H-cup and one team in the Almin. It means they get only 5% of the H-cup pot, but how much does the Almin make up for this, will is be the equalivent of 2/3% of H-cup pot? This will be important to the talks.

I can actually see the SRU rushing back the boarders or a 3rd team as soon as possible, to have 2 teams in the Almin, if the prize is increased in this, and to better challange for an extra h-cup place.

How hard is it going to be now to expand the Pro 12, I'd say that a 3rd Scottish or 5th Welsh team would have no chance of gaining entry. Would the other unions ever vote for an extra team from another Union to enter, making it harder on them to gain H-cup qualification??

If they both get 13% the Scottish sides will pull away as there are half of the sides to fund.

It's funny how this debate has morphed from Jeff/T14 v Rabbo teams to Jeff v T14+Rabbo to a situation where we now have Rabbo teams supporters cannibalising themselves. Some are now leaning toward a reduced number of Rabbo teams by country, at best reducing Scotland and Italy’s involvement in the HEC by 50% and possibly eliminating them from the competition altogether. How are their national teams supposed to compete in the 6 nations or against SH rivals with the majority of their players having no top level club rugby?
We would do well to remember that we are still a minority sport on the global stage and the HEC was supposed to be about increasing awareness and player numbers and raising rugby’s profile across the continent. Georgia and Russia may now have professional teams but what influence has a televised HEC had on that?
There is somebody behind the scenes pulling strings pitting us all against each other for their own agenda. It’s a bit like our politicians constantly playing public sector employee’s against private sector whilst taxing us all to death.
Scotland and Italy are being set up for a fall here and unfortunately the Irish and Welsh unions will let them. We’re not soccer, we are rugby. Our players, coaches and clubs are run on a pittance in comparison. Yes the leagues and clubs have a product to sell but at what ultimate cost?

Sub
By getting better and qualifying for the top tier

There are a few other issues to this proposal I think people are missing.

Firstly the role of Connacht, being a developmental team they are essentially the IRFU's tool to do with as they please. Connachts role may change from development, to development/H cup qualification aid. The IRFU could offer Connacht bonus's based on how many teams they get into the HC, the 3 Irish teams are pretty strong financially and playing squad as it is, Welsh and Scottish teams could be targetted to enable the 3 Irish team qualification.

IMO this brings up so many ethical issues regarding qualification.

Also what happens if we move to an 8 team qual rule, with every union guarentee'd a spot...

Lets say both scottish and Italian teams finish bottom 4, all Irish teams finish top 4, and welsh middle 4, would 1 Irish 1 Welsh team lose their spots, or would it be the bottom 2 welsh teams who lose out.

My point is you can't really mix qualification spots and guarentee'd spots in the same league.

Submachine wrote:.....to a situation where we now have Rabbo teams supporters cannibalising themselves. Some are now leaning toward a reduced number of Rabbo teams by country, at best reducing Scotland and Italy’s involvement in the HEC by 50% and possibly eliminating them from the competition altogether

I think to be honest most people thought that when the Boarders went that the Scottish having both sides in the HEC regardless of how they perform was a bit harsh on the Dragons and Connacht. Then when the Italians joinned the Rabo, and they got both of their sides as certain HEC entrants no matter what, the English noticed how uneven the system was.

I think a system with 1 Welsh, 1 Irish, 1 Scottish and 1 Italians side and then the best non-Rabo sides should go into the HEC, along with the best 5 English sides, and the best 5 French sides. WE all lose out on some places, and we are all certain to have at least one side entered into the competion. By reducing the numbers to 16 we can play four groups of 4 and we can be avoid the awkward two 1st/2nd best runners up nonesence.

But reducing the number of teams isn't helping european or world rugby, it's just squeezing the game to it's financial climax before it ends up as 4 team round robin best of best type thing!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:There are a few other issues to this proposal I think people are missing.

Firstly the role of Connacht, being a developmental team they are essentially the IRFU's tool to do with as they please. Connachts role may change from development, to development/H cup qualification aid. The IRFU could offer Connacht bonus's based on how many teams they get into the HC, the 3 Irish teams are pretty strong financially and playing squad as it is, Welsh and Scottish teams could be targetted to enable the 3 Irish team qualification.

IMO this brings up so many ethical issues regarding qualification.

Also what happens if we move to an 8 team qual rule, with every union guarentee'd a spot...

Lets say both scottish and Italian teams finish bottom 4, all Irish teams finish top 4, and welsh middle 4, would 1 Irish 1 Welsh team lose their spots, or would it be the bottom 2 welsh teams who lose out.
My point is you can't really mix qualification spots and guarentee'd spots in the same league.

Well that is simples, the best Irish (1st place), Welsh (5th), Scottish (9th) and Italitan (11th) go through with the 2 best non-qualited sides going through too, which would be Irish (2nd), Irish (3rd), Irish (4th), Welsh (6th)

SS

So now your reducing qual to 6 teams from a proposed 8???

Whats worrying is that the Fre and Eng clubs are now rubbing their hands together and watching to see which one of the IRFU or WRU jumps ship and condemns the rest to the history books!

Bluesman - fixed the earlier post (goddam skool dint teach me maffs rite).

I personally have no issues with a reduced HEC, and reduced by all, in order to ensure that tournament is more competitive, but I want ot know we will all be included. Just think if it were reduced to 5 Eng, 5 Fre, 6 Rabo the pools would be more interesting, as seeding will not need to be done via previous seasons (and upto 5 years ago) HEC result, you could go purely on league positions (order of qualification):

Pool 1
Rabo (1st)
Jeff (2nd)
T14 (4th)
Rabo (6th)

Pool 2
Rabo (2nd)
Jeff (4th)
T14 (2nd)
Rabo (5th)

Pool 3
Rabo (3rd)
Jeff (1st)
T14 (3rd)
Jeff (5th)

Pool 4
Rabo (4th)
Jeff (3rd)
T14 (1st)
T14 (5th)

Then bu dropping the best runners up nonesence you can either take just hte top or the top two and go to the knock outs.

Little issue for me though SS...

Pool 4 would be won by T14 winner 9 times out of 10!!

If I was 4th in the Rabo I would throw my last game of the season to ensure 5th rather than risk 3rd or 4th.

This style comp gives the rest of europe the 2 fingers, lets close the game off to the rest of the world and just allow us to earn the big bucks!

Bluesman - have a look at London Tigers idea, bottom half of the last page, it seems to be more a ballance of you idea (on a different thread), and what I put down here.

But lets be realistic, the Rabo will go to us having to qualify through the league, and most likely without any certain qualification of any nations.

SS

I firmly believe that qual to the Hcup has to be earned through your league, and therefore would like to see the fully proffesional welsh prem return, and the other rabo nations set up a fully prof league, then every league can have 4 entrants each, everything is fair and square and evens across the board for all 6N nations.

Maybe even the threat of that would give the Eng and Fre the scare they need to realise how good the situation they have now is...

thebluesmancometh wrote:SS

I firmly believe that qual to the Hcup has to be earned through your league, and therefore would like to see the fully proffesional welsh prem return, and the other rabo nations set up a fully prof league, then every league can have 4 entrants each, everything is fair and square and evens across the board for all 6N nations.

Maybe even the threat of that would give the Eng and Fre the scare they need to realise how good the situation they have now is...

NBow that would be a good counter proposal. equal numbers of teams from each union. :-)

thebluesmancometh wrote:SS

I firmly believe that qual to the Hcup has to be earned through your league, and therefore would like to see the fully proffesional welsh prem return, and the other rabo nations set up a fully prof league, then every league can have 4 entrants each, everything is fair and square and evens across the board for all 6N nations.

Maybe even the threat of that would give the Eng and Fre the scare they need to realise how good the situation they have now is...

One answer: not enough money.

Can we have a real world based solution please?

sinner

The welsh prem has been jigged, rejigged and counter jigged, people want it back, regionalism is struggling, and the public is failing to engage...

It may not be that far off!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bluesman - have a look at London Tigers idea, bottom half of the last page, it seems to be more a ballance of you idea (on a different thread), and what I put down here.

But lets be realistic, the Rabo will go to us having to qualify through the league, and most likely without any certain qualification of any nations.

Why? there is no imperative here bar the proposals from the PRL who we can just tell to go and jump. If the PRL say our way or we leave the answer is - bye bye. see how you get on without the HC money. Yes an HC without england is woprth less intotal but how much less? I think there would still be as much money for the rest of the unions.

Bye bye english teams.

thebluesmancometh wrote:sinner

The welsh prem has been jigged, rejigged and counter jigged, people want it back, regionalism is struggling, and the public is failing to engage...

It may not be that far off!

That would be the worst thing to happen to Welsh rugby since the inception of the regions. A Welsh premiership at fully professional level simply isn't sustainable. You don't have enough money or players for 4 teams never mind an entire league - absolute pie in the sky.

Not really TJ, the Eng teams will definately only go with Fre support, and if they get it they'll want a revised euro comp, one they are in total control of, and then it's just a case of wait and see which Rabo nation sells the rest out for the money!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:sinner

The welsh prem has been jigged, rejigged and counter jigged, people want it back, regionalism is struggling, and the public is failing to engage...

It may not be that far off!

They WRU can hardly even have 3 out of 4 teams that are competative at H-cup level, the Welsh prem would jsut have more teams that are going to be well beaten every year, likewise if IRFU entered AIB teams, and SRU

Its a dream but not going to ever work in the real world.

TJ again your just mentioning the English threating to leave if there are no changes, the French are threatening the same thiing, what is the H-cup without the French and English?

Come on guys be senisable!

Artfull

BULL!!!!

The public would be there ready, Ponty and a few other clubs could go prof if they were able to now, the players are certainly there, the infrastructure is there, but most importantly the history and the interest would be there.

If the 120 players or so were integrated back into the prem from the regions, not to mention the 300 or so academy players who have only age grade experience, maybe reduce the prem to 8 or 10 teams and you have a very sustainable model.

Bluesman - you are in dreamland.

Kingshu

The regions struggle in the Hcup not because of the squads, IMO Ospreys had one of the strongest squads in europe for a long time, but interest in the product isn't there and playing in an empty stadium mixed with politics...

The Welsh prem teams weren't particularly competitive in the HC era but times have changed, more prof clubs = more academies, coaching and conditioning techniques are far superior now, more academies = better players and better athletes.

I'd predict it would only take 6 - 8 seasons before the strength of the prem was near regional standard!!!

Nicely articulated argument Artfull... thought provoking.

TJ
Get real, if the English leave will the French want to subsidise the Rabo Nations considering they claim they could make more from an expanded Top14?Would Sky be interested to the same degree considering that they dont appear to be interested in the Rabo?

Artful_Dodger wrote:Bluesman - you are in dreamland.

+1

See my earlier post

broadland

In all fairness the celtic nations have made it clear they will only negotiate with free to air home channels havn't they?

Money can detrmine the growth rate of the prem clubs, but it can be created for a fully prof prem easily enough.

Kingshu wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:sinner

The welsh prem has been jigged, rejigged and counter jigged, people want it back, regionalism is struggling, and the public is failing to engage...

It may not be that far off!

They WRU can hardly even have 3 out of 4 teams that are competative at H-cup level, the Welsh prem would jsut have more teams that are going to be well beaten every year, likewise if IRFU entered AIB teams, and SRU

Its a dream but not going to ever work in the real world.

TJ again your just mentioning the English threating to leave if there are no changes, the French are threatening the same thiing, what is the H-cup without the French and English?

Come on guys be senisable!

Indeed - pleae be sensible. what is the european cup when its french and english clubs with a token couple of weak welsha dn irish teams? France will not wreck it as the union will not go that far. the PRL will end up isolated and alone and will either have to accept the competition or go away.

TJ

Thats part of the problem, your thinking exactly like the PRL...

If I was them I would relish the chance for a bit of success before the celtic nations league become too strong for them as much of the rabo is now.

broadlandboy wrote:TJ
Get real, if the English leave will the French want to subsidise the Rabo Nations considering they claim they could make more from an expanded Top14?Would Sky be interested to the same degree considering that they dont appear to be interested in the Rabo?

there is no subsidy involved - this is one of the lies the PRL are promoting.

there is a product - the HC. this is worth a certain amount of money and it is divided between the teams who play in it in a fair manner accoreding to a furmula agreed by all the unions..

Do you really think an anglo french cup would be worth as much? do you really think the french will walk away from the HC? No chance at all.
As has happened before the rest of the unions will eventually prevail. the english will be isolated and will have to back down. even the RFU are against the PRL

thebluesmancometh wrote:Nicely articulated argument Artfull... thought provoking.

I've already articulated my argument, you can barely sustain 4 teams never mind at least double that. Both financially and in terms of players a fully professional Welsh premiership would be suicide. Anyway I'm going to leave it there as I think you are quite delusional.

TJ
The PRL would like a 3 tier european competition but would accept a simple ENG/FRA comp which they believe would generate (for their members) as much money as a European comp with them willing to subsidies the other Nations.
You seem to be forgeting that the LNR want change as well & have given notice to leave

thebluesmancometh wrote:Artfull

BULL!!!!

The public would be there ready, Ponty and a few other clubs could go prof if they were able to now, the players are certainly there, the infrastructure is there, but most importantly the history and the interest would be there.

If the 120 players or so were integrated back into the prem from the regions, not to mention the 300 or so academy players who have only age grade experience, maybe reduce the prem to 8 or 10 teams and you have a very sustainable model.

So your wanting to enter Ponty, the same team that was beaten by Leinster 'A' (not even the weakened Leinster team the Scarlets beat, but thier 'A' team) 32-0.

or cross Keys beaten 31-12 by the Munster 'A' team.

If these teams can't even beat the 'A' teams how are they going to cope in Europe against their full teams?
Dreamland.

broadlandboy wrote:TJ
The PRL would like a 3 tier european competition but would accept a simple ENG/FRA comp which they believe would generate (for their members) as much money as a European comp with them willing to subsidies the other Nations.
You seem to be forgeting that the LNR want change as well & have given notice to leave

I am not forgetting that - however do you really think that will happen and that and anglo french league would work?

The PRL do not want what you claim they do - they want to control the competition. They want to take more money from it. they want to impoverish the other nations. Its a naked power grab. the rezst is a smakescreen. the french unions interests do not align with the PRL at all.

thats their agenda dn they do not care what damage they do to everyone else to get what they want.

I dont know if an anglo/french comp would work but PRL/NLR seem to think so.Agreed that it wouldnt bring in as much as the HC but then it wouldnt need to as it would only be split between 2 rather than 6

From the irish times link

“The English and French clubs contribute by miles the biggest part of the revenue and we don’t get our just reward,” said Wray whose club, Saracens, were the Premiership’s sole representatives in the quarter-finals last season. They attracted a crowd of 11,047 for their 22-3 defeat to Clermont, which was the lowest of any match in the knock-out stages for the last six seasons.

Increasingly too, McCafferty and the English clubs look isolated. The vice-president of the LNR, Patrick Wolff, commented: “It is inappropriate to give news about TV rights in Europe. I was disappointed. It is not appropriate that this is to be put on the agenda. We do not know for sure if ERC or the clubs or another organisation owns these rights.

“Of course I understand that this is the usual pressure exerted before negotiations but I was sorry to see financial issues being discussed before we talk about how the competition needs to be improved. We don’t want to start all this by having lawyers there arguing about TV rights. We must talk first about the sport.”

this just shows the nonsense the PRL are spouting.

No that just proves that at the moment Sarries have a low number of supporters that go but the TV rights for England are worth more as the PRL have shown with the BT deal

Ok - I will take a bet here

the HC remains substatially much as it is now

the PRL end up isolated and have to give up most of their demands

or - the HC goes ahead without the PRL clubs

TJ, I don think anyone here expects that the PRL is going to get all of its demands.

I would gladly take the bet that we will end up with a compromise reached with both sides giving a little.

the PRL will have to give up a lot - they might get a small face saving comprimise but the other unions have the power to stop them - remember they are not the rfu and have alienated the rfu as well as all the other unions.

TJ wrote:From the irish times link

“The English and French clubs contribute by miles the biggest part of the revenue and we don’t get our just reward,” said Wray whose club, Saracens, were the Premiership’s sole representatives in the quarter-finals last season. They attracted a crowd of 11,047 for their 22-3 defeat to Clermont, which was the lowest of any match in the knock-out stages for the last six seasons.

Increasingly too, McCafferty and the English clubs look isolated. The vice-president of the LNR, Patrick Wolff, commented: “It is inappropriate to give news about TV rights in Europe. I was disappointed. It is not appropriate that this is to be put on the agenda. We do not know for sure if ERC or the clubs or another organisation owns these rights.

“Of course I understand that this is the usual pressure exerted before negotiations but I was sorry to see financial issues being discussed before we talk about how the competition needs to be improved. We don’t want to start all this by having lawyers there arguing about TV rights. We must talk first about the sport.”

this just shows the nonsense the PRL are spouting.

Thats the French still saying they want the competation qualification changed, they havn't suddenly changed their minds on that.

while Sarcens only attracted, 11,047, how big was the TV audence? Ulster wouldn't have had a bigger crowd! Glasgow would have been even smaller.

I'm not going to argue anymore with you TJ

You can't See that is BOTH the French and English that want changes to the way teams qualify for the h-cup, not just the English.

You think the French threat to leave is just a bluff and they will change their minds and stay with no changes being made what so ever!

and you can't see that the Rabo nations are prepared to neoigate

The french position is that they want changes - and to get this they have to give notice to leave as its the only way possible.

However I believe the french will be reasonable - they have always been so in the past.

the PRL want to control the competition. thier proposals are unnacceptable to everyone else including the french

the SRU will negotiate of course but they will not accept any deal that impoverishes and destroys scottish rugby I hope - and be clear - the PRL proposals would do just that. Imagine no pro rugby in Scotland and Italy? and Wales being semi pro at best. do you really think that is in the best interests of european rugby.

make no mistake - the PRL will be completely isolated in this and if they do not back right down will be kicked out. They are making bad mischeif and are a destructive force in european rugby. I hope they are cut down to size over this

TJ Where is your evidence for the things that you accuse the PRL of?

TJ wrote:The french position is tht hey want changes - and to get this they have to give notice to leave as its the only way possible.

However I believe the french will be reasonable - they have always been so in the past.

the PRL want to control the competition. the SRU will negotiate of course but they will not accept any deal that impoverishes and destroys scottish rugby I hope - and be clear - the PRL proposals would do just that. Imagine no pro rugby in Scotland and Italy? and Wales being semi pro at best. do you really think that is in the best interests of european rugby.

make no mistake - the PRL will be completely isolated in this and if they do not back right down will be kicked out.

broadlandboy wrote:TJ Where is your evidence for the things that you accuse the PRL of?

What this is about is club competitions being run by clubs rather than the unions. The Champions League is not run by the Football Association or the German federation and imagine how stupid it would be if it were. It is in everyone's interests to play together with a more even distribution of money than is currently the case. It comes down to who blinks first."

what they have said. they have made it clear they believe the clubs should run the european cup not the unions. they are representing the interests of the owners of a small number of english club owners - not the clubs and not the intersts of english rugby let alone european rugby.

If the PRL get their way its the end of pro rugby across most of europe and an end to the european cup as an interesting competition as well as the end of the 6N.

TJ you are being a drama queen about it. You have completely fabricated this belief in your head that it is the "end of pro rugby across most of Europe".

In short I find this to be one of the biggest exaggerations I have read on here in a long time.

REdstag - believe me this is no exaggeration. Under the PRL proposals the Scottish and italian clubs would lose so much money they would not be able to sustain two pro teams each. the money from the HC is that critical to them. I believe it is similar in wales if not so acute.

If the clubs miss out on HC qualiufication they would lose at least 25% of their funding and probably nearer 50%. this means smaller and lower quality squads. this in turn means it would be almost impossible to ever qualify for the HC again. the inevitable result of this would be the end of pro rugby in scotland.

Edinburghs cup run last year has meant a 25% increase in funding this year - thats just the extra from the knockout games and the big crowds tehy got for them.

the HC funding is critical to the continuing existance of the scottish pro teams -this is one of the reasons the borders team failed. wiothout HC rugby they were not financially viable.

If the PRL proposals are accepted ( they won't be) witin 5 years there would be no pro rugby in scotland or italy and thus the 6N would no longer be viable either and scotalnd and italy would no longer be anything like competative.