PDIV vs Meyer

Peter de Villiers:

June 7, 2008: South Africa v Wales, Bloemfontein - WON 43-17
June 14, 2008: South Africa v Wales, Pretoria - WON 37-21
June 21, 2008: South Africa v Italy, Cape Town - WON 26-0
July 5, 2008: All Blacks v South Africa, Wellington - LOST 8-19
July 12, 2008: All Blacks v South Africa, Dunedin - WON 30-28
July 19, 2008: Wallabies v South Africa, Perth - LOST 9-16
August 9, 2008: South Africa v Argentina, Johannesburg - WON 63-9

5 Wins, 2 losses – Win Ratio of 71%

Heyneke Meyer:

June 9, 2012: South Africa v England, Durban - WON 22-17
June 16, 2012: South Africa v England, Johannesburg - WON 36-27
June 23, 2012: South Africa v England, Port Elizabeth DRAW 14-14
August 18, 2012: South Africa v Argentina, Cape Town - WON 27-6
August 25, 2012: Argentina v South Africa, Mendoza - DRAW 16-16
September 8. 2012: Wallabies v South Africa, Perth - LOST 19-26
September 15, 2012: All Blacks v South Africa, Dunedin - LOST 11-21

3 Wins, 2 Draws, 2 Losses – Win Ratio 42%

Meyer’s current win ratio of 42% is the worst of any Springbok coach since Carel du Plessis in 1997 with 37%.

PDIV vs Meyer

Just read this article on sport24 and while I think it is an unfair comparison, I thought I might analyse the situation a bit more. I think it is fair to say that PDiv inherited a much better team than Meyer did, or is it even fair to say that? Let analyse the situation a bit further.

This is the squad PDiv inherited:

SA squad: Fullbacks: Percy Montgomery, Francois Steyn. Wings: Bryan Habana, Ashwin Willemse, Akona Ndungane, JP Pietersen. Centres: Jean de Villiers, Jaque Fourie, Wynand Olivier. Flyhalves: Butch James, Andre Pretorius. Scrumhalves: Fourie du Preez, Enrico Januarie, Ruan Pienaar. Loose Forwards: Pierre Spies, Juan Smith, Bob Skinstad, Danie Rossouw, Schalk Burger, Wikus van Heerden. Locks: Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Albert van den Berg, Johann Muller. Props: CJ van der Linde, Os du Randt, BJ Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp. Hookers: Gary Botha, John Smit(captain).

From the squad of 30 he retained 18 players, which is a 60% retention ratio.

This was the WC squad selected for 2011:

Tendai ‘Beast’ Mtawarira (Sharks),Gurthro Steenkamp (Bulls), John Smit (Sharks, capt),Bismarck du Plessis (Sharks),Chiliboy Ralepelle (Bulls), Jannie du Plessis (Sharks),CJ van der Linde (Lions),Bakkies Botha (Bulls),Victor Matfield (Bulls, vice-capt),Johann Muller (Ulster/NIR),Danie Rossouw (Bulls),Willem Alberts (Sharks),Schalk Burger (Province),Heinrich Brüssow (Free State Cheetahs),Francois Louw (Bath/ENG),Pierre Spies (Bull),Francois Steyn (Racing Metro/FRA),Patrick Lambie (Sharks),JP Pietersen (Sharks),Gio Aplon (Western Province),Jaque Fourie (Province),Jean de Villiers (Province),Juan de Jongh (Province),Bryan Habana (Province),Odwa Ndungane (Sharks),Morne Steyn (Blue Bulls),Butch James (Golden Lions),Fourie du Preez (Bulls),Francois Hougaard (Bulls),Ruan Pienaar (Ulster/NIR)

Currently, Meyer is using 15 players form Div's squad of which 10 is from Jake White's WC winning squad (Didn't count JP). Gurthro went to France, but in reality Beast was prefered above Gurthro, but it was a close call. This definitely impacted the bench. Bakkies also left, which left the spot open for Etsebeth who is already very good, but we still feel the void Bakkies left. Victor left with Andries filling that role (in my opinion should have been first choice last year). John Smit left, but it was really just his captaincy that kept him in above Bismarck. Jaque Fourie left, and that we didn't have any adequate plan for yet, which I quess is the same problem that we had with John Smit/Bismarck saga. Other Fourie left, but he has not been the same since his surgery in my opinion. The other that I omitted doesn't have the impact these players had.

Willem Alberts, The Sharks, 11 caps
Andries Bekker, DHL Western Province, 24 caps
Pat Cilliers, MTN Golden Lions, uncapped
Marcell Coetzee, The Sharks, 3 caps
Keegan Daniel, The Sharks, 3 caps
Jean de Villiers, DHL Western Province, 75 caps (captain)
Bismarck du Plessis, The Sharks, 45 caps
Jannie du Plessis, The Sharks, 33 caps
JJ Engelbrecht, Vodacom Blue Bulls, uncapped
Eben Etzebeth, DHL Western Province, 3 caps
Dean Greyling, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 2 caps
Bryan Habana, DHL Western Province, 77 caps
Francois Hougaard, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 18 caps
Elton Jantjies, MTN Golden Lions, uncapped
Zane Kirchner, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 15 caps
Siya Kolisi, DHL Western Province, uncapped
Juandré Kruger, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 3 caps
Patrick Lambie, The Sharks, 13 caps
Tendai Mtawarira, The Sharks, 35 caps
Lwazi Mvovo, The Sharks, 4 caps
Ruan Pienaar, Ulster, Northern Ireland, 54 caps
JP Pietersen, The Sharks 45 caps
Jacques Potgieter, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 1 cap
Chiliboy Ralepelle, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 21 caps
Pierre Spies, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 50 caps
Frans Steyn, The Sharks, 49 caps
Morné Steyn, Vodacom Blue Bulls,, 37 caps
Adriaan Strauss, Toyota FS Cheetahs, 12 caps
Flip van der Merwe, Vodacom Blue Bulls, 14 caps
Jano Vermaak, Vodacom Blue Bulls, uncapped.

Now, 3 of those players from Div is likely to return and one is returning in the next game (which Meyer didn't choose initially) which also makes it 19 players from the previous squad. Also remember that Victor, Bakkies and John (can't remember who else) wasn't going to play further in SA which would have made them ineligible to play for the boks. So Divvies first success was actually bringing back some of his strongest players and that should probably count for something and probably something that Meyer should have done with Jaque Fourie (in my opinion our best centre).

So the only natural thing that counts against Meyer is injuries towards JP,Pierre, Schalk and now Bismarck.

In my opinion we have enough natural talent to have overcome the vacancies left by those who retired. We had 3 teams in the S15 (although the S15 favours us because we have 3 strong teams to the 4 in NZ and 2 in Aus).

And I also feel that there are people that was in Divvy's squad that should have been in Meyers squad initially. Actually after writing all of this I am sure that they are closer to being comparable than what I thought.

All I know, is that Meyer hasn't delivered what I was expecting. He said he was going for the win in every game, but I feel there has been too many selections based on sentiment rather than form. Because if I look at the selections, it doesn't look like we are playing to go for the win.

And you kind of start to miss the PDiv rant when we lose, or when we win ugly.

Aghh, just saw there is a poll option at the bottom, so I will ask who you think is/was better
I am still voting Heineke because he is more pedigreed, but I must admit that I am starting to wonder if what we coach in SA uses our full potential.

There is no way you can compare the two.

PDV took a World Cup winning team minus two retirees and just allowed them to do their thing, after that 72% win ration it just dropped every year.


I don't like what HM is doing currently, I don't like his selections, his pivot, his conservatism, but he is starting from scratch.

Only time will tell where this is going.

That's why I started this article, because I thought the piece was unfair. B

But as I wrote the piece I realized that Heineke isn't starting from scratch. He just choses too. He has lost a lot of experience and a lot of his more experienced players is injured. Add to that, that he didn't want to choose certain players with experience, probably because he thought they were too small - Gio, Heinrich and JdJ he lost out on a more experienced team.

I do not like some of his selections, his pivot, but his conservatism also doesn't bother me all that much. If Morne was firing like he did in his first two international years, I think we would have won that test against the All Blacks.

I know you don't like his game plan, but he believes in it and I am also pretty sure when he gets all his ingredients right, we will win most of our games with his conservative approach.

I am sure Meyer will end up with an average close to 70% and we don't need time to tell us where he is going, we all pretty much know what game plan he is going to employ and we all could see that there was just a certain facet of the application lacking in the game Saturday.

No one's asking you to change your game much. The platform was laid by the forwards. Pienaar and Steyn were robotic in their delivery of walkie talkie instructions to kick long and high. 2009 was a great year for SA against NZ executing a similar kick chase gameplan. But Divvy had lineout gods in Matfield and Botha to kick for the corners. Meyer doesn't have that arsenal so chooses to bomb them high and deep. That makes life a lot easier for NZ.

The problem is both were guilty of not keeping the ball in hand long enough. SA don't have to play an expansive game. But they have the talent in the backrow to retain ball and keep possession. I'd love to see stats for metres run with ball in hand versus the kicking. The former would be pretty low for both coaches and equally high for the latter. They were done for different reasons but both coaches missed a trick in not varying their play enough and stubbornly sticking to a game plan even when it doesn't work. The frustrating thing is that both had the talent at their disposal to achieve better results by tweaking the game plan by only a fraction. Sure they have a proud record against most teams but they could so easily have had a proud record against all teams. I liken them to mules who, instead of moving in one direction, choose to dig in their heels and s**t on all behind them.

Fern, I agree to a certain extent he chooses to, he chooses to play Pienaar whilst Sarel Pretorius, he chooses to play Morne (granted he is phasing in Goosen), he chooses to play Zane Kirchner whilst Lambie is waiting in the wings (granted he is returning from injury, but it is now overdue), he chooses to play Jean de Villiers (I can understand why, he needs someone that can organise defences)

His forward pack is an experimental process, the Bulls, Greyling, Werner Kruger, Jaques Potgieter, Dewald Potgieter etc have all failed, hopefully Greyling's selection is now at an end.

He is yet to try Anton Bresler, but so ar his lock selections has been spot on, it seems he has now found his backrow.

But you also have to admit, Coenie Oosthuizen will give us the back up at prop, Adriaan Strauss is gaining valuable experience and doing well enough, Burger will improve our energy, distribution and intensity, Spies we haven't seen the last of. Wonder if he will give Brussow a chance.

But his backline needs much improving, I would like to see Sarel Pretorius have a go, Charl Mcleod should get an opportunity, Goosen and even Jantjies at 10, our center pairing must be figured out, whether it is Frans Steyn, Patrick Lambie or Jan Serfontein at 12, who will make outside centre, JP Pietersen, de Jongh (not my favourite, he doens't pass) or Paul Jordaan, do we pick JP Pietersen at 14 (his positional play, his attacking from deep and his defensive capabilities) or do we go for Raymond Rhule, Habana, Hougaard or Luois Ludick at the wings?

Do we prefer Lambie, Tute or Frans at 15.

This squad is still far from being sorted.

Meyer better get a move on.

Hmm, there must have been an Aussie that voted.

In my opinion Meyer is doing fine with what he is trying to do. He is probably going to win on the Highveld and after that his team will probably be sorted.

How about this poll:

Starter at 10 vs NZ in Soweto? Goosen or Steyn?

Voted pdv for the following reasons:

- better success rate- the ultimate judge regardless of circumstances
- PDV at least knew things were wrong, he just couldnt do anything about it.
- Meyer is dangerous, a control freak, and doesnt learn very quickly. He's not open to other styles of rugby nor is he visionary. He ignored the most obvious signs in retaining Steyn. Lambie or even Grant would have been much more effective while waiting for Goosen- goalkicking et other. The predicted final hurdle (one would hope) against NZ was predictable from the start of the year, and got more and more obvious as the year passed.

Injuries are not why SA lost last week. Selection and gameplan were. The pack played well enough to win most tests. Its them I have the most empathy for. I mean what else do they have to do?

Biltong wrote:There is no way you can compare the two.

PDV took a World Cup winning team minus two retirees and just allowed them to do their thing, after that 72% win ration it just dropped every year.


I don't like what HM is doing currently, I don't like his selections, his pivot, his conservatism, but he is starting from scratch.

Only time will tell where this is going.

rubbish of course you can....problem is you didn't like PDV and he was more successful than HM.....one can only speculate why

mowgli wrote:

Biltong wrote:There is no way you can compare the two.

PDV took a World Cup winning team minus two retirees and just allowed them to do their thing, after that 72% win ration it just dropped every year.


I don't like what HM is doing currently, I don't like his selections, his pivot, his conservatism, but he is starting from scratch.

Only time will tell where this is going.

rubbish of course you can....problem is you didn't like PDV and he was more successful than HM.....one can only speculate why

Newsflash matey.

I don't like either of them.

Meyer admitted he was wrong with not starting Goosen against NZ. Thats a start. He did say he thought about it but that his goalkicking wasnt too hot during the training week.

For me this says one of two things- either he's still coming up with excuses and reasons to stick with Steyn- the latter an ever decreasing commodity, or he actually is managing the winds of change by protecting Goosen as much as possible despite the temptation to throw him to the lions- something I actually agree with- nothing wrong with overprotecting someone at 20 who hasnt played for a few months due to injury.

At home it should become obvious which tack he's on.

On one hand its unlikely Steyn will play as badly (as it isnt really possible to) and his record at home actually makes him a real contender despite his failing here.

On the other hand Goosens had a taste, is back in familiar and safe environment from a tournament winning perspective (ie they are not under pressure to win the entire tournament) and looks ready for a full match.

That and the two weeks to prepare should be enough to allow Goosen to start at 10. If Mayer doesnt, he'll confirm one way or another that he just hasnt got what it takes at this level to make the right calls.

So he's an each way bet at the moment...

pdv's thoughts on this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7695701/Springboks-squad-too-white-says-former-coach

and Meyers 'on the right track, lot of positive things we can take from that, Steyn still has a big future' words...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7694653/Meyer-feels-special-about-his-Springboks-team

Not sure why we harp on about but its just that this SA coach, gameplan is the most interesting thing around at the moment...

Love this one:

"I don't want to boost myself, but I've always been great at getting the best out of players and the mental break will do Morne well"...

Given Meyer has started Steyn in every match this year I can understand why he doesnt want to 'boost himself' such is the quality he's getting out of Steyn... ...priceless... better watch out or he'll surpass PDV in the media stakes...

Biltong does`nt like either Coach fair enough,the stats quoted are a little skewed since the All Blacks won home and away in 2008 winning the 3Ns[2out of 3].On Saturday the Boks had one advantage they`d been written off they had nothing to lose.They played well better than they have all season,they had the best of the possession and territorial stats.The ref was pedantic at Scrum and breakdown but even handed to both sides.For whatever reason Goal kicking was ineffective for both sides.The Stadium stats for Super kickers is 65%which is way below the ability of goal kickers concerned.True Morne Steyn is going thru a bad patch with his goal kicking.A decent Coach would have releived him of the duties IF he wanted him for his tactical kicking.The game plan was naive launching bombs against the best counter attacking side in the World.The Line out was a mess who are your best Jumpers?Bekker was supposedly better than Matfield why did`nt he start?The All Blacks defence is really on the money the forwards providing the platform.But The backs are misfiring and disjointed at least there still winning.Now we are at the business end of the season and mathematically any of the top 3 could still win it.Boks in SA is always a Home win bet but hope for something more.The Boks passing near the try line was abysmal at times a "Hail Mary" to Habana and one straight into touch.The Boks have more depth in players than any except perhaps NZ and if they don`t get game time chances are they will chase the money abroad.

Yeah agree. Steyn has been misfiring all year though. There used to be a simple concept of when a player doesnt play well he usually wont play the next game. That concept excludes Steyn obviously. How anyone can have the string of poor performances, including at the level below tests, and still be picked is the eigth wonder of the world...and after all that Meyers latest is 'Morne could do with the rest...we'll see what happens Currie cup next weekend and go from there... geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzz......!

Funny how he singles out Habanas return to form- had nothing to do with meyer- in fact its Habana typically going completely against the gameplan, surprising everyone thats helped him get his last two tries... yet even he confirms he's 100% behind the plan...Sure...Bryan...we saw you running up and down the sideline all day chasing those aimless kicks- enough to frustrate the &^& out of anyone and just say stuff it Im going on my own boys...

Steyn`s goal kicking has been off for awhile,but some interesting Comments on the kicking in that Otago Stadium.In Domion Post and New Zealand herald,apparently kickers"Kicking thru the Ball" the old style behind the ball approach.Are more successful than the round the corner style which is the preferred method to day.Apparently unless you get it right it acts as an "outswinger in cricket".There is also comment about the balls,that could be easily fixed a standard ball for all test matches world wide.Then no excuses especially if commisioned and paid for by the IRB rather than a team sponsored one.

Taylorman wrote:pdv's thoughts on this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7695701/Springboks-squad-too-white-says-former-coach

Well what he is saying might be true, but only because our country makes a big deal out of it in the first place. I do think Gio is very unlucky in not being in the team as if I was the coach he would definitely be selected above Kirchner, but then you have exactly the same situation as he explains now. JdJ in means JDV out and that is not going to happen, even if JDV is out there is others I would like to try. JdJ, JDV basically all of our centres don't know how to pass, except maybe the Shark one's, Frans excluded.

FerN wrote:

Taylorman wrote:pdv's thoughts on this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7695701/Springboks-squad-too-white-says-former-coach

Well what he is saying might be true, but only because our country makes a big deal out of it in the first place. I do think Gio is very unlucky in not being in the team as if I was the coach he would definitely be selected above Kirchner, but then you have exactly the same situation as he explains now. JdJ in means JDV out and that is not going to happen, even if JDV is out there is others I would like to try. JdJ, JDV basically all of our centres don't know how to pass, except maybe the Shark one's, Frans excluded.

Be careful who is casting stones here. It wasn't too long ago that the AB's were being pilloried for being "too white" in a tour to Europe so that there was questioning over whether any was enough qualified to lead a Haka, and there was controversy over an alleged "brown cap" at the Crusaders.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Crusaders-have-brown-quota-claims-former-All-Black-great/tabid/415/articleID/157943/Default.aspx

anotherworldofpain wrote:

FerN wrote:

Taylorman wrote:pdv's thoughts on this:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/international/7695701/Springboks-squad-too-white-says-former-coach

Well what he is saying might be true, but only because our country makes a big deal out of it in the first place. I do think Gio is very unlucky in not being in the team as if I was the coach he would definitely be selected above Kirchner, but then you have exactly the same situation as he explains now. JdJ in means JDV out and that is not going to happen, even if JDV is out there is others I would like to try. JdJ, JDV basically all of our centres don't know how to pass, except maybe the Shark one's, Frans excluded.

Be careful who is casting stones here. It wasn't too long ago that the AB's were being pilloried for being "too white" in a tour to Europe so that there was questioning over whether any was enough qualified to lead a Haka, and there was controversy over an alleged "brown cap" at the Crusaders.

http://www.3news.co.nz/Crusaders-have-brown-quota-claims-former-All-Black-great/tabid/415/articleID/157943/Default.aspx

It is South Africans throwing stones at South Africans. The New Zealanders just reported what was said.