New H-cup, minus the English likely?

According to Gerry Thornley in today's article the FFR have more power than their clubs when it comes to negotiating and their priority is to make sure that the French players play less rugby, for the sake of the national side, and also so that they can compete in the playoffs in the Top 14 without any clash with the H cup. This is the gist of what Patrick Wolff, vice president of the LNR (represents French clubs) says in the quote below:

"But much stricter French law and the strength of the French Federation, whose president Pierre Camus signs off any television deal involving the French team or its clubs, means the LNR could not go down the English clubs’ route.

“The Heineken Cup is a very good competition and we don’t want to kill it,” added Wolff. “We love the Heineken Cup in France. Sometimes we complain, because we are French first, then because the Celts don’t play as many games as us. But I can’t imagine that the French will allow the big games like Clermont against Leinster not to happen. We will do our best to keep these type of games.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0915/1224324046581.html

If they can make the same money but have a reduced number of competitors they may well be happy with that. If the English leave both of these outcomes could be accomplished without too much hardship to one side. They may well also want more money and tougher qualification rules for the pro 12 sides but their priorities are not the same as the English clubs. Would the LNR and public be happier with a smaller competition that included the best sides in Europe (mostly from the pro 12) or one with the next best sides in Europe involving only one other country?

Whatever way these negotiations go this way that people have gone of playing out each stage/ idea in public is a very bad idea. People are far less likely to back down and compromise if they think that they will lose face for going back on a previous statement. Pride could play as big a part as logic and greed in this process.

Update: From the Guardian, 25th Sept
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
ERC chairman, Jean Pierre Lux quoted in the Guardian today.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/25/bt-deal-heineken-cup-illegal

He couldn't have made it clearer that they are considering a h cup without English clubs.

there are two threads about European comp already. to answer your question no as I cant see the LNR agreeing to subsidce the other nations on their own

there is no subsidy involved here - no one country transfers money to anther.

Its not likely but unless the PRL back down its possible - and would be a far better option than the PRL one

The ERC sell the TV rights for each union and then split it evenly. If the French TV rights are worth more than the others then they are, in effect, subsidizing the others.

The initial quote seems to be missing some context. I'm pretty sure when Wolff says they can't go the English route, he means selling the TV rights without the FFR approval. It doesn't mean anything about negotiations or threats of the leaving the cup or a Franglo Cup.

Also, how exactly are the the English and French clubs' priorities not the same? As far as I'm aware the only thing that's happened so far is that the English clubs back the French proposal and also handed their notice in to force negotiations.

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC sell the TV rights for each union and then split it evenly. If the French TV rights are worth more than the others then they are, in effect, subsidizing the others.

The initial quote seems to be missing some context. I'm pretty sure when Wolff says they can't go the English route, he means selling the TV rights without the FFR approval. It doesn't mean anything about negotiations or threats of the leaving the cup or a Franglo Cup.

Also, how exactly are the the English and French clubs' priorities not the same? As far as I'm aware the only thing that's happened so far is that the English clubs back the French proposal and also handed their notice in to force negotiations.

You're right Hammer. He is referring to the TV route. Also for Celts, read Irish provinces. The FFR will not get into bed with the PRO 12. It will want partnership with individual unions.

The PRO 12 does not and will not be involved in negotiations.

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC sell the TV rights for each union and then split it evenly. If the French TV rights are worth more than the others then they are, in effect, subsidizing the others.

s.

cowpat. the French TV rights are valuable because of the product - which is 6 unions teams in a competition. I suggest you go and look up a dictionary. there is no subsidy. ERC sell the rights and divide the income according to agreed formulae

HammerofThunor wrote:

Also, how exactly are the the English and French clubs' priorities not the same? As far as I'm aware the only thing that's happened so far is that the English clubs back the French proposal and also handed their notice in to force negotiations.

try reading the quotes. the PRL want control at all costs and do not care about the rugby or the other unions - the french want to play in a high quality european cup. its very telling the game they use as an example.

this is about a power grab by the PRL.

Pot Hale wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:The ERC sell the TV rights for each union and then split it evenly. If the French TV rights are worth more than the others then they are, in effect, subsidizing the others.

The initial quote seems to be missing some context. I'm pretty sure when Wolff says they can't go the English route, he means selling the TV rights without the FFR approval. It doesn't mean anything about negotiations or threats of the leaving the cup or a Franglo Cup.

Also, how exactly are the the English and French clubs' priorities not the same? As far as I'm aware the only thing that's happened so far is that the English clubs back the French proposal and also handed their notice in to force negotiations.

You're right Hammer. He is referring to the TV route. Also for Celts, read Irish provinces. The FFR will not get into bed with the PRO 12. It will want partnership with individual unions.

The PRO 12 does not and will not be involved in negotiations.

Yup - thats right - the European cup belongs to the unions but the PRL want to grab control of it.

How are the PRL gaining power or even trying to gain power. I've seen no quotes to suggest this so you'll have provide examples.

The umbrella organisation for European Rugby Unions is FIRA-AER - any European Cup should belong to them. The 6N Unions (who are also members of FIRA-AER) have feiced the rest of Europe by taking all the money from the game and leaving them nothing but crumbs. The Heineken Cup is a 6N Cup only.

I wonder how this spat might be viewed by the rugby fraternity of Georgia, Romania, Russia, Portugal and the list goes on and on.

HammerofThunor wrote:How are the PRL gaining power or even trying to gain power. I've seen no quotes to suggest this so you'll have provide examples.

"What this is about is club competitions being run by clubs rather than the unions,The Champions League is not run by the Football Association or the German federation and imagine how stupid it would be if it were. It is in everyone's interests to play together with a more even distribution of money than is currently the case.It comes down to who blinks first."

Pretty clear is it not ?

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:How are the PRL gaining power or even trying to gain power. I've seen no quotes to suggest this so you'll have provide examples.

"What this is about is club competitions being run by clubs rather than the unions,The Champions League is not run by the Football Association or the German federation and imagine how stupid it would be if it were. It is in everyone's interests to play together with a more even distribution of money than is currently the case.It comes down to who blinks first."

Pretty clear is it not ?

He's right Hammer. McCafferty wants the ERC sidelined - he's pretty clear about the lacklustre performance of the current crew in Hainault House.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The umbrella organisation for European Rugby Unions is FIRA-AER - any European Cup should belong to them. The 6N Unions (who are also members of FIRA-AER) have feiced the rest of Europe by taking all the money from the game and leaving them nothing but crumbs. The Heineken Cup is a 6N Cup only.

I wonder how this spat might be viewed by the rugby fraternity of Georgia, Romania, Russia, Portugal and the list goes on and on.

I would be quite happy to accomodate tehm further - and the amilin is in part to do so.

IIRC both the PRL & NLR have questioned the ERC's running of the European comps. The PRL seemed to have proved this by selling their tv Rights for more than ERC sold all the rights to Sky

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC both the PRL & NLR have questioned the ERC's running of the European comps. The PRL seemed to have proved this by selling their tv Rights for more than ERC sold all the rights to Sky

reeber the 1`52 million includes the aviva games and no one knows the split. and is also based on the "new format" that the PRL want.

Would not a 3rd tier,reduced numbers in top tier & improved middletier be a new format?

its good to hear that the french want to keep the HC. we can kinda relax now as its now nearly a certanty that the HC will continue for years to come.

TJ wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The umbrella organisation for European Rugby Unions is FIRA-AER - any European Cup should belong to them. The 6N Unions (who are also members of FIRA-AER) have feiced the rest of Europe by taking all the money from the game and leaving them nothing but crumbs. The Heineken Cup is a 6N Cup only.

I wonder how this spat might be viewed by the rugby fraternity of Georgia, Romania, Russia, Portugal and the list goes on and on.

I would be quite happy to accomodate tehm further - and the amilin is in part to do so.

Well, we disagree strongly and vehemently on that. The Amlin is not the place for unproved aspirational teams, it should be for teams who do not make the cut into the premier competition and should be strong enough to wipe it's own face. The Italian teams in last year's edition averaged match scores of 8-43, usually against A teams from France and England. They devalue the competition, making it largely unappetising for sponsors, TV and fans (the Spanish champions did about the same, Bucharest a fair bit better). A strengthened "Amlin" will never have the appeal of the premier competition, but, if marketed well, should be capable of delivering a decent income to the collective pot.

A third tier, with promotion to the Amlin, and financed by the premier competition is needed.

The question I posed, though, was how this spat is being viewed in those countries marginalised for so long by the ERC.

Pot Hale wrote:

TJ wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:How are the PRL gaining power or even trying to gain power. I've seen no quotes to suggest this so you'll have provide examples.

"What this is about is club competitions being run by clubs rather than the unions,The Champions League is not run by the Football Association or the German federation and imagine how stupid it would be if it were. It is in everyone's interests to play together with a more even distribution of money than is currently the case.It comes down to who blinks first."

Pretty clear is it not ?

He's right Hammer. McCafferty wants the ERC sidelined - he's pretty clear about the lacklustre performance of the current crew in Hainault House.

But that doesn't mean the PRL want to take control. If the Provinces replaced the IRFU, Scottish teams replaced, SRU, French clubs replaced FFR, etc, the PRL wouldn't control of the competition. In my opinion the clubs (as in teams) should be in control of clubs competitions. Of course several of the teams are owned by the unions so it won't make any difference to them. The only union really effected by a change would be the WRU. I also think it would be beneficial for Welsh rugby in general for some balance of power to be shifted to the regions. Of course that's for them to decide. It's all part of the negotiation.

Of course it means the PRL want control thats the whole intention. at the moment its 6 unions that control it - the PRL effectivly gets half of the RFUs voe so 1/12 of the votes if the PRL proposals go thru the PRL will have 8 of 20 teams or almost half the vote - plus the control of the tv rights as they have gone on and negotiated these with no mandate. they will effectively control the competition.

No one else wants this at all - and also its against IRB regs. get real and wke up and smell the coffee.

Actually the IRB regs part referred to the sale of TV rights belonging to the unions and the ERC unions had given the ERC control of the European rights. However this ends with the current participation agreement and would only be against IRB regulations if the RFU renewed the current set-up. Also the ERC setting up a new deal with Sky is also against the IRB regulations until the RFU and other unions renew the ERC TV rights Agreement.

Again, what are the proposals of the PRL regarding voting rights? The votes are based by ownership. Each Union has equla ownership and then equal votes. The FFR have given the French clubs 80% of their votes. I imagine the PRL would like this to be repeated across the board. Of course that's based on guesswork, same as any at the moment.

TJ wrote:Of course it means the PRL want control thats the whole intention. at the moment its 6 unions that control it - the PRL effectivly gets half of the RFUs voe so 1/12 of the votes if the PRL proposals go thru the PRL will have 8 of 20 teams or almost half the vote - plus the control of the tv rights as they have gone on and negotiated these with no mandate. they will effectively control the competition.

No one else wants this at all - and also its against IRB regs. get real and wke up and smell the coffee.

Almost missed this part. That was never part of any proposals that I've seen. The original French one was that each league would have 8 teams in a 24 team competition. The next one I've seen is the IRFU one which would have the PRL having 6 out 20. Even then there's nothing saying the voting would be split by the number of clubs in it.

The PRL want the clubs to control it - you really think that would not be on the basis of one club one vote? - get real -the PRL are after power. its what they do!

8 of 24 then - pluys control of the TV rights IE effective control of the competition.

Look what happened to the football european club competitions once the clubs controlled it. This si the model the PRL are after - more games= more money.

They control their TV rights not all of them (well not quite, the RFU do). AND that money is to be put in the pot.

So your claim the PRL are out for power is based on the fact the PRL are out for power? If all you've got is tautology I'm going to leave it there. I can't believe I've wasted my time when it's clear your mind is made up based on preconceived ideas. I actually thought you had some information you basing this on but it was made up wasn't it?

TJ

I think thats where the celts need to play PRL and FFR against each other, if the PRL get their way and the tournament becomes club owned then it's only a matter of time before the PRL enforce more teams = more games = more revenue!!!

Given the english clubs tarty history for using football stadiums, travelling to asia for a quick buck etc it would be a great hand to play, the French want the exact opposite of what the English are currently doing, it's about letting the french know that!

Where has the impression that the PRL wants more games come from?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the 'PRL is the devil' bandwagon, but the PRL have a history of whoring the prem out a bit.

Wether they would, or would not want more games to increase revenue it would be a great hand to play as a celt to highlight the PRL's recent exploits of money making schemes and try to play one side against the other.

IMO the problem is when the Eng and Fre have a common cause, that spells trouble for the euro tournament, if the French can be convinced that the PRL are the enemy the PRL will have to back down.

Bigger question how are you going to convince the French the PRL want to expand Europe. By whoring out do you mean making money? How's that going to put off the French?

The French want less player pressure, and want the tournament to run before the T14 final.

A few key words such as asain travel, and extra revenue sources such as team involvement etc...

Word your case correctly and all you'd have to do is give the French the impression that the PRL will treat the comp as they treat the AP and RFU and the French would become very nervous.

Unfortunately if it made more money I think the French would agree

TJ - have you read any of the proposals being put forward by any parties?

First you say 8 out of 20 which is practically half - except it isn't.

Then you say 8 out of 24, which the PRL is not proposing. You say they have control of the TV rights - but omit to say English teams only.

The PRL is proposing a 33.3% split across the three leagues, plus the two winners.

It isn't a majority no matter which way you slice it.

The Irish are proposing an 8, 6, 6 split which gives the Pro 12 the biggest vote if you want to look at it like that.

Methinks you want to see demons, therefore, everything English has horns.

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

I think thats where the celts need to play PRL and FFR against each other, if the PRL get their way and the tournament becomes club owned then it's only a matter of time before the PRL enforce more teams = more games = more revenue!!!

Given the english clubs tarty history for using football stadiums, travelling to asia for a quick buck etc it would be a great hand to play, the French want the exact opposite of what the English are currently doing, it's about letting the french know that!

Using football stadiums is tarty is it? How exactly?

beshocked wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

I think thats where the celts need to play PRL and FFR against each other, if the PRL get their way and the tournament becomes club owned then it's only a matter of time before the PRL enforce more teams = more games = more revenue!!!

Given the english clubs tarty history for using football stadiums, travelling to asia for a quick buck etc it would be a great hand to play, the French want the exact opposite of what the English are currently doing, it's about letting the french know that!

Using football stadiums is tarty is it? How exactly?

Lol. Hadn't seen that. 'Tarty history'.

Yis are all tarts over there. You use soccer stadiums. We, on de udder hand, have proper ones over here. Horses jump in ours.

Pot Hale wrote:

beshocked wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

I think thats where the celts need to play PRL and FFR against each other, if the PRL get their way and the tournament becomes club owned then it's only a matter of time before the PRL enforce more teams = more games = more revenue!!!

Given the english clubs tarty history for using football stadiums, travelling to asia for a quick buck etc it would be a great hand to play, the French want the exact opposite of what the English are currently doing, it's about letting the french know that!

Using football stadiums is tarty is it? How exactly?

Lol. Hadn't seen that. 'Tarty history'.

Yis are all tarts over there. You use soccer stadiums. We, on de udder hand, have proper ones over here. Horses jump in ours.

What a short memory they have. Seemed more than happy to use tarty Wembley when the millenium stadium was being built. It was obviously too tarty for Warburton to puke on, so small mercies there.

Going back to the orginal Question, is the H-cup likely to go ahead without the English?

Rabo nations will hold out for 8 qualifers, One from each nation guarenteed, rest league based, 6 English and 6 French.

H-cup winners and Almin winners come out of that countries allocation.

Money spilt accordenly,

This means that each H-cup place will be worth 5% of the participation pot.
Meaning the split would be

IRFU and WRU would get between 5-20% each year (from 13% prevously)
SRU and FIR between 5-10% each year (from 13% and 11% prevously)

French and English will both increase their share by 5%, from 25% to 30%

The itialial French stance is softening, and they appear to not want a Anglo/French cup, but a rejigged H-cup.

This is what I think the French will agree with as it see's the French and English share increase from 25% to 30% and a reduction in number of Pro 12 teams and tougher qualification critea for them, plus since with less teams a reduction in payments from 50% to 40%. While still having every nation represented. Also they will have final earlier and played in blocks, and Almin will be relaunched.

This covers what the French are requesting an dshould be agreeable for the French and Rabo unions.

This may not go far enough to applease the English, but if the Rabo nations and French agree, what choice do they have?

The English TV deal will have highlighted that the ERC have not been selling the TV rights for the maximum potental value, all Unions will be annoyed at the ERC for this, but will appoint a commentee to sell them better in future, and will not be happy at the PLC for doing things this way and possiblably having to bring in lawyers to resolve.

All Unions are unhappy with the way the PLC have acted ,the French and Rabo nations will agree on the new format, its going to be down to the RFU and PLC if they accept these terms, that will determine the future.

RFU may be agreeable, PLC not and we could see a split, and championship teams entered.

They both may not accept these terms and there be no English teams in it.

They may accept this as the best deal.

or they may accept it, and the PLC either repremanded orpunished for doing the TV deal, which could see English teams banned for a year, or a reduced number for a year, etc etc

Kingshu, those numbers assume that teams get nothing for ACC spots. Part of this proposal is for making the ACC more 'attractive' therefore I can see participation money and performance money being increased. We've no idea how it's going to split so we can't really compare.

The French have said they will only consider a Franglo cup if negotiations break done. The PRL have looked into it as an option for when negotiating but it's still a last resort. Any small 'improvement' that appeases the French will also get the English on board. But I do think the French will go for that 'improvement'. The one you mentioned would be the 'best' IMO, along with strengthening the finances of the ACC.

The PRL TV deal has nothing to do with the ERC. The RFU own the TV deals following the 2014. so banning the English would be completely unjustified considering the money is being shared.

Would sky still want the t.v rights to the HC without the English teams in it ? At the moment sky and English rugby have a pretty comfortable relationship with each other, as do ESPN so could we then see the HC back on the BBC ? I have not liked any of this thus far, and I said at the start of this that somebody will come out of this with a very bad reputation, and it is looking more like PRL that are going to look like the villians as this pans out, the French are not mentioning money, they are talking about less games and a restructuring of the layout, PRL though are demanding more money and power and it does not cover them in glory, at least not outside of England anyway.

HammerofThunor wrote:Kingshu, those numbers assume that teams get nothing for ACC spots. Part of this proposal is for making the ACC more 'attractive' therefore I can see participation money and performance money being increased. We've no idea how it's going to split so we can't really compare.

The French have said they will only consider a Franglo cup if negotiations break done. The PRL have looked into it as an option for when negotiating but it's still a last resort. Any small 'improvement' that appeases the French will also get the English on board. But I do think the French will go for that 'improvement'. The one you mentioned would be the 'best' IMO, along with strengthening the finances of the ACC.

The PRL TV deal has nothing to do with the ERC. The RFU own the TV deals following the 2014. so banning the English would be completely unjustified considering the money is being shared.

I think every Union will agree to these figures and then, they all agree to reduce each portion by say 2/3% and add this to the Almin, Meaning the Almin is increased by the same amount that the SRU used to recieve, or more.

LordDowlais wrote:...and it does not cover them in glory, at least not outside of England anyway.

LD, we English have metaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us all day every day from all other home nations anyway - we are the big oppressing bad. After a while you have to say feick it, we can never seem to do right for doing wrong, and if we're going to get more methaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us for going for more money, then so what? we have it thrown at us all the time anyway so we have to look after what we think is fair for us and our teams. Celts rant and moan, no change there.

When I talk value - this is monetary only


A compromise will be reached, just as it was in 1999. Mainly due to the market size a European competition without the English clubs is a lot less valuable financially. The income lost is some way in excess of the amount received by England so less money would be made by all.

The financial value of the competition without the French as well equates to the value of the Rabo league - so draw your own inference.

The wildcard is the French. For the English it is pretty much about money, but for the French clubs it is about power. They want a say in how the competition is run (such as voting rights) which as it is a club competition seems fair, but the FFR disagree.

In the end a compromise will be reached and if PRL are able to bring significantly more money to the table than the pittance Sky get away with paying, everyone would be wealthier (though the gap between haves and have nots would grow)

AlastairW wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...and it does not cover them in glory, at least not outside of England anyway.

LD, we English have metaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us all day every day from all other home nations anyway - we are the big oppressing bad. After a while you have to say feick it, we can never seem to do right for doing wrong, and if we're going to get more methaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us for going for more money, then so what? we have it thrown at us all the time anyway so we have to look after what we think is fair for us and our teams. Celts rant and moan, no change there.

You will not see me throwing rotten fruit at you, I have no problem with England or English people what so ever, I have some very good friends who are English as well, I think some of you have some sort of inferiority complex for what ever reason or it might just be the fact that you like having this perspective of yourselves.

AlastairW wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...and it does not cover them in glory, at least not outside of England anyway.

LD, we English have metaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us all day every day from all other home nations anyway - we are the big oppressing bad. After a while you have to say feick it, we can never seem to do right for doing wrong, and if we're going to get more methaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us for going for more money, then so what? we have it thrown at us all the time anyway so we have to look after what we think is fair for us and our teams. Celts rant and moan, no change there.

Oh dear

A phrase with the words chip and shoulder in it comes to mind.

You complain about being sterotyped and then through out a blanket assessment of others...priceless

geoff998rugby wrote:

AlastairW wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:...and it does not cover them in glory, at least not outside of England anyway.

LD, we English have metaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us all day every day from all other home nations anyway - we are the big oppressing bad. After a while you have to say feick it, we can never seem to do right for doing wrong, and if we're going to get more methaphoric rotten fruit thrown at us for going for more money, then so what? we have it thrown at us all the time anyway so we have to look after what we think is fair for us and our teams. Celts rant and moan, no change there.

Oh dear

A phrase with the words chip and shoulder in it comes to mind.

You complain about being sterotyped and then through out a blanket assessment of others...priceless

a celt talking about shoulder chips and moaning about someone elses post . That proves my point well enough.

English not your first language then ...at no point do I complain about your post I merely point out its absurdity

No. you're complaining. did you come up with your own arguement? no. Did you comment on the OP? no. You moaned about mine, need some polish for that shoulder ship of yours?

No way. MY Dad is bigger than your Dad

red_stag wrote:No way. MY Dad is bigger than your Dad

Probabley.

red_stag wrote:No way. MY Dad is bigger than your Dad

Probably, my dad is pint sized. His Winkle is massive though, apparently

a well lads back to the topic

Geoff intrested in what you rekon the out come will be?

Do yo agree with me that the
Rabo nations will hold out for 8 qualifers, One from each nation guarenteed, rest league based, 6 English and 6 French.

H-cup winners and Almin winners come out of that countries allocation.

French and English will both increase their share by 5%, from 25% to 30%

I think the French will agree with as it see's the French and English share increase from 25% to 30% and a reduction in number of Pro 12 teams and tougher qualification critea for them, plus since with less teams a reduction in payments to pro 12 unions from 50% to 40%. While still having every nation represented. Also they will have final played earlier and played in blocks, and Almin will be relaunched.

This covers what the French are requesting and should be agreeable for the French and Rabo unions.
This may not go far enough to applease the English, but if the Rabo nations and French agree, that its a reasonable compromise for all nations, they may have to accept they are not getting more.

quick question. Would that be 5 pools of 4 or 4 pools of 5?