New H-cup, minus the English likely?

First topic message reminder :

According to Gerry Thornley in today's article the FFR have more power than their clubs when it comes to negotiating and their priority is to make sure that the French players play less rugby, for the sake of the national side, and also so that they can compete in the playoffs in the Top 14 without any clash with the H cup. This is the gist of what Patrick Wolff, vice president of the LNR (represents French clubs) says in the quote below:

"But much stricter French law and the strength of the French Federation, whose president Pierre Camus signs off any television deal involving the French team or its clubs, means the LNR could not go down the English clubs’ route.

“The Heineken Cup is a very good competition and we don’t want to kill it,” added Wolff. “We love the Heineken Cup in France. Sometimes we complain, because we are French first, then because the Celts don’t play as many games as us. But I can’t imagine that the French will allow the big games like Clermont against Leinster not to happen. We will do our best to keep these type of games.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0915/1224324046581.html

If they can make the same money but have a reduced number of competitors they may well be happy with that. If the English leave both of these outcomes could be accomplished without too much hardship to one side. They may well also want more money and tougher qualification rules for the pro 12 sides but their priorities are not the same as the English clubs. Would the LNR and public be happier with a smaller competition that included the best sides in Europe (mostly from the pro 12) or one with the next best sides in Europe involving only one other country?

Whatever way these negotiations go this way that people have gone of playing out each stage/ idea in public is a very bad idea. People are far less likely to back down and compromise if they think that they will lose face for going back on a previous statement. Pride could play as big a part as logic and greed in this process.

Update: From the Guardian, 25th Sept
"They opened talks directly with some South African and French clubs. This has hampered the negotiations. It is hard to talk with them. We may have to move on without the English, though I do not want it."
ERC chairman, Jean Pierre Lux quoted in the Guardian today.

Full article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/25/bt-deal-heineken-cup-illegal

He couldn't have made it clearer that they are considering a h cup without English clubs.

Intotouch wrote:Yes, no, maybe, I don't know..can you repeat the question?

The argument about audience numbers doesn't hold water. A hundred thousand MORE people watched last years final, between two Irish sides, than ever before. (According to Lux in Equipe) So who is actually putting bums on seats in front of tvs in England and France? Last year Leinster and Ulster were.

Plenty of people have been tuning in for years to watch teams from other countries duke it out. It's not as simple as "my country has a bigger audience than yours" Other teams contribute to the "product" that is being sold internationally as well as in the six countries involved.

Not sure where Lux got his stats from, Intotouch. (Unless he's talking about French TV numbers) The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports. A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source: http://www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased. But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view. An Anglo-Irish clash attracts more than an Anglo-French clash, or possibly an all-English clash. Munster's win in 2006 certainly seemed to gain a lot of neutral fans support.

But the biggest to date has been the classic comeback match - Leinster v Northampton at 400,000.

Just to put rugby viewership in perspective, a soccer match played in the week of that 2011 final, between Peterborough and MK Dons had 427,000 viewers.

Intotouch wrote:Yes, no, maybe, I don't know..can you repeat the question?

The argument about audience numbers doesn't hold water. A hundred thousand MORE people watched last years final, between two Irish sides, than ever before. (According to Lux in Equipe) So who is actually putting bums on seats in front of tvs in England and France? Last year Leinster and Ulster were.

Plenty of people have been tuning in for years to watch teams from other countries duke it out. It's not as simple as "my country has a bigger audience than yours" Other teams contribute to the "product" that is being sold internationally as well as in the six countries involved.

To give an analogy if last years champions league final was watched by forty million people in Russia , who's teams didn't make the final, compared to say twenty million in the UK, should the Russian clubs get more of a cut of the profits from the champions league? Should the Russians have more teams in it compared to other countries that have been more successful? Do these arguments even come up in soccer?

I can tell you for a fact that the top champions league teams are pulling in far more money than their home audience is worth. Far more. The TV money comes in from all around the world. TV companies have to outbid each other to watch these games.

So on the one hand you have Man Utd getting piles more cash than they should compared to the English audience and other the other hand premiership rugby clubs get less than they should compared to their audience. Nobody in the world complains about this except the English (and to a lesser extent French) rugby clubs.

I think most English fans can also see that their clubs are chancing their arm a bit. What they might be better off doing in the AP is extending the wage cap so they can compete with the French and let millionaire owners like Bruce Craig pump their money into the clubs. If a team fails another will come along (Exeter). You can let the possibility of teams failing hold every other team back.

Pot Hale wrote:
Not sure where Lux got his stats from, Intotouch. (Unless he's talking about French TV numbers) The official figures from BARB show the following audiences for H Cup finals over the last ten years on Sky Sports. A hundred thousand LESS people watched last years final:

2012 - 309,000 - Leinster v Ulster
2011 - 400,000 - Leinster v Northampton
2010 - 161,000 - Toulouse v Biarritz
2009 - 339,000 - Leinster v Leicester
2008 - 137,000 - Munster v Toulouse
2007 - 258,000 - Wasps v Tigers
2006 - 315,000 - Munster v Biarritz
2005 - 179,000 - Toulouse v Stade Francais
2004 - 140,000 - Wasps v Toulouse
2003 - 130,000 - Toulouse v Perpignan

source: http://www.barb.co.uk/report/weekly-top-programmes?

Clearly, over time, the viewer numbers have increased. But equally, as 2011 v 2012 shows, when an English team is involved the viewing numbers go up, or drop when they aren't in, if you want to look at it from Sky's point of view. An Anglo-Irish clash attracts more than an Anglo-French clash, or possibly an all-English clash. Munster's win in 2006 certainly seemed to gain a lot of neutral fans support.

But the biggest to date has been the classic comeback match - Leinster v Northampton at 400,000.

Just to put rugby viewership in perspective, a soccer match played in the week of that 2011 final, between Peterborough and MK Dons had 427,000 viewers.

Pot Hale - without knowing what the viewing figures were in France (and beyond) I don't think you can really dismiss Lux's claim. I'd be surprised, but that match may have had a huge following in France - or they may have sold rights in other countries and picked up a few thousand extra viewers in Japan, the states, etc. Having started the other thread, what interests me is how that compares to viewing figures for ITV's premiership highlights. That they apparently get 2-3 times as many viewers for a round up of the weekends premiership results is very surprising. I'd be very interested to see what the viewing figures were like for the Heineken Cup final before it was on Sky... they may have paid a fair sum for the rights, but I'm not convinced it's worth it.

Havent read any of the previous comments but given the English arent making much of a difference these days in the HC then they wont be missed.

DOD wrote:Havent read any of the previous comments but given the English arent making much of a difference these days in the HC then they wont be missed.

Ah that's not fair. Or true. Who will be our yearly whipping-boys?