England squad for India set to be announced

First topic message reminder :

England announce the squad for India at 11 tomorrow.

The rumour currently going round is that it will be: Cook, Root, Trott, Bell, Morgan, Bairstow, Bopara, Prior, Kieswetter, Swann, Patel, Tredwell, Broad, Anderson, Bresnan, Finn

A few surprises in there and I'm not sure I can agree with some of the decisions if this is true - no Monty, no Taylor, Ravi in despite his form, Morgan back in despite no FC runs in yonks.

I like Root but at this time, following the loss of two experienced batsmen, I reckon we need to unearth a Mike Hussey type who can slot straight in and score heavily - I reckon Carberry or Compton are more likely to do that.

The one position that is a bit up in the air is the Bopara one - some people think Compton will go and I'd assume it must be in place of Bopara.

Eng's best chance will be drawing at Nagpur whihc is traditionally a dead slow, low pitch...it will be the 4th test....and by that time they would have had enough practise.

T2 and T3 are spinning Mumbai and Kolkata......no chance.

T1 ahmedabad I don't know....it's a variable pitch that can be anwhere from a little grassy, to uneven, to slow and low to a square turner......

If Eng can win the toss, bat big and get away with a draw assisted by pitch in T1.....their India campaign would kick off well

KP_fan wrote:Eng's best chance will be drawing at Nagpur whihc is traditionally a dead slow, low pitch...it will be the 4th test....and by that time they would have had enough practise.

T2 and T3 are spinning Mumbai and Kolkata......no chance.

T1 ahmedabad I don't know....it's a variable pitch that can be anwhere from a little grassy, to uneven, to slow and low to a square turner......

If Eng can win the toss, bat big and get away with a draw assisted by pitch in T1.....their India campaign would kick off well

I'd probably agree if India had a World-Class spinner like Ajmal but they don't. England are better than India in all departments but home advantage should pull it back a little for India so 2-1 England.

^i would put 2-0 as good as it can get for Eng.......and on the low side...it can get as bad as it can

India is better at playing spin on helpful tracks, India's spin bowling unit is better than that of England although Graeme Swann is a class act. But India's spin partnership of R Ashwin and Pragyan Ojha is jeling well and are quite a force on home conditions.
If India is going through a rebuilding stage with the batting lineup, the forced absence of Kevin Pietersen, the retirement of Andrew Strauss and the long term struggles of England at number 6 negates any advantage on that ground. If Bairstow had a fine test against the South Africans then Pujara scored more runs than oanyone else in the last series he played. If Morgan's expected to transform his good ODI performances to the test level then Virat Kohli, one of the very best ODI batters at present has already started that process. If Indian openers are struggling for consistency and form then England will have to find a new one with Cook too struggling towards the latter part of the summer. If the Indian batters have a bit of a problem playing quality pace then Ian Bell and most of the rest of English batting have no idea about playing spin in helpful conditions in general and in India in particular.
If there is any area where England has a clear advantage then that is the pace unit. Zaheer Khan is getting on in age and Umesh Yadav is still finding his feet in international cricket. Praveen Kumar has lost his form and people are forced to talk about Ishant Sharma's potential rather than the actual output even today, 5 years after his debut. Varun Aaron has to do a lot of developing, and Sreesanth a lot more growing up. RP Singh has lost it and Munaf Patel isn't fit enough to play the longer format.
But England, despite the recent consistency/pace problems of Bresnan and Broad are way ahead in that department.
Usually it has been quality Fast bowling that troubled India in India. Steyn, Donald, Aqtar....... Finn could be ahandful on that count but the rest will have to do a lot more than what they managed during the summer.

msp83 wrote:guildford, Agree with almost every bit of it. You surely know what I don't agree with right?
Anyways, what do you make of Morgen's selection? What is the 11 you would see at this point taking the field for that first test?
For me it has to be
Alastair Cook
Joe Root
Jonathan Trott
Ian Bell
Eoin Morgan
Jonny Bairstow
Matt Prior
Stuart Broad
Graeme Swann
James Anderson
Steven Finn.

Msp - thanks for your resonse. You too, Mad and Mike.

I rather like the look of msp's team and am comfortable with the suggested order. I also agree with msp's post to Mad about Prior moving up to six if Patel gets picked.

I think Morgan's selection is the closest the selectors would go to giving a wild card and probably one considered appropriate in view of Pietersen's omission. Following up on a point made by Mike, I think Bairstow might be the one most in danger during the series if the selectors look to bring in Patel. I certainly don't regard Bairstow's place as nailed on. Things can change very quickly. Someone else may just find that out if we surprise a few and end up doing well in this series.

India's spin bowling will be a handful in their conditions. Both Ashwin and Ohja should be more threatening than Herath.

Trott and Cook can guts it out ok, and Bell is usually a good player of spin if he doesn't stay strangely creasebound, whilst Morgan plays spin as well as anyone outside the subcontinent and the Clarke family. The days where England were hopeless against spin seemingly had passed but then came the UAE. The question is have those scars healed, and how little will be needed to reopen them.

Actually Kohli and Pujara would be the least of my concerns about India's batting if I were Indian. Tendulkar's form of late has been patchy, whilst Raina is clearly not particularly good. I also think England can attack Shewag by bowling at his ribs, I feel he's prone to playing too early and getting leading-edges - Australia exploited that quite well the last time they toured.

Zaheer and Yadav aren't that bad actually, Zaheer can plug away and Yadav will pick up the odd wicket. With Ashwin and Ohja bowling plenty of overs, I'm not sure England's advantage in the seam department will be that great. Having said that Anderson is not to be underestimated, and is due some luck, and Finn should cause some problems. Broad should be fine, but his lack of pace against the Saffers will be a worry.

Swann? Well, he's a very fine bowler, but India (Raina aside) do play spin very very well, so I think he'll find it tough going. Frankly a series of averageing 35-40 with an eco of 2.5-2.7 would be a very good return, and allow the seamers to rotate, which will be his main role.

I think it's got the potential to be a very tight series, if England's batsman don't pretend they are stuck in the UAE with time-bombs outside their creases. If England bat like they did last winter then India will cruise it.

Mike Selig wrote:India's spin bowling will be a handful in their conditions. Both Ashwin and Ohja should be more threatening than Herath.

I saw Ojha bowl for Surrey at the Oval in the closing weeks of the 2011 season. He was very impressive and I rate him highly. Most Division Two batsmen never had a chance. Facing him in his home conditions, our leading batsmen will need to be at their best.

Coincidentally and by contrast, Herath played for Surrey a couple of years earlier and rarely looked any better than ordinary.

Mike Selig wrote:Guilford raises an interesting point about the value of having "good tourists" amongst the likely replacements. Certainly when I think about picking a squad it plays a part, but the guys I coach are essentially kids (well, teenagers anyway), and more to the point few have ever been on any sort of tour, and even fewer have experience of being 12th (or 13th) man. I would have thought that being a "good 12th man" whilst not coming naturally to anyone is something that any decent pro should be able to do without too much trouble, but it is a fairly demeaning role, and a very good 12th man makes a difference. Brett Lee was apparently a fantastic 12th man (at the time when first Kasperwicz then Bichel were picked ahead of him). I wouldn't ever suggest that I know much about the 12th man abilities of this squad (and those missing out) so absolutely no offence is taken - the closest I can come to is knowing someone who knows someone very well who knows very well, but I wouldn't dream of asking and he wouldn't dream of telling if I asked.

Mike - thanks for your response on this aspect.

I've obviously no way of knowing how much the selectors generally take this into account and whether it had any significant bearing on those who made and didn't make this particular squad. However, I do believe it is a factor which to some extent rightly goes into the mix. Anecdotal evidence certainly supports the value of ''the good tourist'' waiting in the wings and Lee is another and more recent example to the ones I gave. It's also something that we, the general cricket following public, probably don't appreciate enough at the time - and, just for once, nor can we looking from afar!

what is special about herath is his mystery ball that turns in to the RHB....
like a chinamen.

He is about the only SLA I have seen who bowls "the other one".....in addtion to all the standard SLA armoury.

Ojha ain't even the best SLA in India at the moment...juts happens to be more established and under challnage from Dharekar who had a great Ranji season and a good tour or WI with the A team....and Harmeet singh of u-19 world cup fame...who has imprssed one and all

I think both Harmeet and Dharekar have quite some way to go as yet. Dharekar will have to show consistency, and Harmeet, although quite impressive to start with will have to develop more before being considered for the test side.
Ojha is anyday better than Piyush Chawla who continues to get chances for no reasons, and Amit Mishra as well. So I think he's rightfully there.

Ohja is a good bowler, very canny with his changes of flight. I think he uses "natural variation" rather than a genuine arm ball (like Herath). England played spin well over the summer (they usually do at home), can they take that mentality with them to India.

Chawla is - well, I was going to say rubbish, but that's a tad harsh - just completely average. He's not going to get good batsmen out (unless they get themselves out), simple as.

msp83 wrote:I think both Harmeet and Dharekar have quite some way to go as yet. Dharekar will have to show consistency, and Harmeet, although quite impressive to start with will have to develop more before being considered for the test side.
Ojha is anyday better than Piyush Chawla who continues to get chances for no reasons, and Amit Mishra as well. So I think he's rightfully there.

sorry msp...have you seen Dharekar ?
He is much better than Ojha.....in flight control and ability to get something out when the pitch has nothing?
He lacks the big league confidence...whihc he will as he does more India-A tours.

and Harmeet...is clearly a teenaged prodigy who has to be groomed in 2 seasons of FC cricket.

Ojha is juts more established...more evolved in his career.....but a matter of time, before one of Dharekar or Harmeet will challnage him.

I am surprised that some of the posters here rate Ojha so highly. He is a ubiquitious Indian SLA that India has had one all the time since the retirement of Bedi.....but a class or two below Bedi.
India has had a SLA +/- like Ojha always...........Doshi, Maninder, Raju, Joshi, Kartik, Saghvi.......even Dharekar is in the same league...nothing drastically better.
Harmeet has the potential to be one cut above these if developed properly.

MFC, Chawla was ones promissing, but he's too one-dimensional and doesn't have enough control over his line and length to make a good international bowler. He has been distinctly average over the last 3 domestic seasons, but somehow gets picked from time to time.
Ojha for me is a much better bowler, and the game of musical chairs haven't given him a fair run. In fact whenever he was dropped it was not because of a dreadful performance. He's not a worldbeater as yet, but he has done well enough to get a run. He's at last getting a bit of it in home games, and haven't done anything wrong at all. I believe the county stint with Surrey was of help.

when I saw him play for Surrey I remember thinking "why are India picking such distinctly average spinners (Mishra, Harbajan at that time, Chawla) when they've got this guy kicking his heels?" I agree not a world beater, but a very clever bowler who won't let the side down.

Ojha has 75 wickets from 16 test matches, and his ODI and T-20I record aren't bad at all. 21 wickets from 18 ODIs going at an economy rate well under 5, and 10 wickets from 6 T20Is at just over 6 an over.
Has to be India's 2nd spinner in all formats, but the selectors somehow haven't quite settled on that as yet.
KPF, I have seen a bit of Dharekar and he looks good. But I think he has to have more solid and consistent domestic performance before he could be considered for national duties. Harmeet indeed has the look of class about him, but at this moment it is more at the stage that has to be carefully managed.

msp83 wrote:Ojha has 75 wickets from 16 test matches, and his ODI and T-20I record aren't bad at all. 21 wickets from 18 ODIs going at an economy rate well under 5, and 10 wickets from 6 T20Is at just over 6 an over.
Has to be India's 2nd spinner in all formats, but the selectors somehow haven't quite settled on that as yet.
KPF, I have seen a bit of Dharekar and he looks good. But I think he has to have more solid and consistent domestic performance before he could be considered for national duties. Harmeet indeed has the look of class about him, but at this moment it is more at the stage that has to be carefully managed.

I am a bit critical of those whose success is on designer home conditions.
To me a great spinner is one...who can do a good job if not excellent in foreign conditions......and Ojha is untested.
and that applies to seamers also from countries like Eng and NZ who pick a lot of wicket sin home conditions.......how much can they deliver in foreign conditions.

Murali, Warne and to a large extent Kumble in the latter half of his career..... passed that tests as spinners in recent times.
I think ashwin is more likely to pass this test...than Ojha.

But guys like Amit Mishra and Piyush Chawla haven't had that much success at home either. Relatively speaking, Ojha has been much better than them even at home.
As I said, Ojha isn't a great spinner as yet, but a very good one in my book.

India should have picked Ojha for the T-20I wc ahead of the lower order batting all-rounder who ones used to be a world class spinner.
Perhaps its a good move, Ojha would do well to stay focused on giving the ball some air and getting it to turn rather than firing it in at the batsman's pads. Harbhajan has managed only that in the last 2 years.

Looking forward to seeing Joe Root hopefully make his debut......can also bowl some decent off spin..

not the worst place to make debut as a batsman, ball wont swing much upfront, and yes the ball will turn, but he is a good player of spin, and we will really see what he's made of

msp83 wrote:But guys like Amit Mishra and Piyush Chawla haven't had that much success at home either. Relatively speaking, Ojha has been much better than them even at home.
As I said, Ojha isn't a great spinner as yet, but a very good one in my book.

And Ojha had a good T20 WC in England in 2009. And an excellent county season last year. Mishra is innocuous overseas. No control. No bounce. I still have time for Chawla but he is still a bit raw. He is only 23 which is somewhat surprising given that he made his debut in 2006.

we've gotta keep our attacking test match spinners and seamers away from t20.....for the fear of them losing their attacking styles.

Not every one is flexible enough...and hence it's a good decision to keep Yadav, Ishant and Ojha away from T20.

Mishra ain't bad.......he is a rythm bowler and we haven't seen the best of his rythm in the last series he had in England.
He is capable of and has delievred much better......at his best he is like Danish Kaneria.

Sadly there is no crop of young leggies or Off spinners in India.......it's all SLAs as the lead spinners in FC cricket in India......behind Ojha and Harmeet are Darekar, Nadeem, Iqbal abdulla, Apanna, jakati as the lead spinners in Ranji....and all of them SLAs.

Rahul sharma is classified as leg break...but he doesn't turn.....ain't a test match potential in my view.......is getting out of turn chances because of selectors desires to pluck out anotehr Kumble from somewhere.

Harbhajan at 32 still has 6 years of international cricket left in him and based on what we saw a couple of days back.... he is the next best spinner in the country that is a non SLA

Bhaji over Ashwin? Not really for me. He bowled well against England, but we'll have to see how he would go in the longer format. England never even gave us a chance to see how Bhaji would react after being hit for a couple of boundaries.
Unlike Zaheer's in 2006, Harbhajan's most recent county stint was nothing special. He was terrible in the Ranji matches he played last year and struggled for wickets in the IPL as well. Without a bag of wickets, no way should he be even considered for test matches.

Yes. Fair point. We don't really have any young leggies coming through, which is a shame. Still, SLAs are not bad. Think Harmeet could be special. Darekar is good. Not sure about the rest though.

Ashwin will be a real handful in India, they'd be mad to drop him IMO. Ohja brings a nice contrast to Ashwin - where Ashwin mainly bowls fairly flat but with a tall action and bowls all these modern variations, Ohja is a more classical bowler not afraid to toss it up with subtle variations of flight and spin. They're a good combination.

Harbajhan bowled nicely against England but that's one 4 over spell against players who won't have prepared for facing him. he'll get more chances in the rest of the tournament and it will be interesting to see how he goes, but for now he's well behind the above two in the pecking order.

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Yes. Fair point. We don't really have any young leggies coming through, which is a shame. Still, SLAs are not bad. Think Harmeet could be special. Darekar is good. Not sure about the rest though.

Eh?

msp83 wrote:Bhaji over Ashwin? Not really for me. He bowled well against England, but we'll have to see how he would go in the longer format. England never even gave us a chance to see how Bhaji would react after being hit for a couple of boundaries.
Unlike Zaheer's in 2006, Harbhajan's most recent county stint was nothing special. He was terrible in the Ranji matches he played last year and struggled for wickets in the IPL as well. Without a bag of wickets, no way should he be even considered for test matches.

I thought he meant next best after Ashwin. Tbf, if Bhajji regains his mojo (I am not getting too excited just as yet) he is the second best spinner in the world(behind Ajmal) but I would like to see more from him before I claim that "he's back". Hopefully, we will prepare rank turners at home and play 3 spinners against England.

Mike Selig wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Yes. Fair point. We don't really have any young leggies coming through, which is a shame. Still, SLAs are not bad. Think Harmeet could be special. Darekar is good. Not sure about the rest though.

Eh?

Erm? Didn't I say on the other thread that I am no longer an England supporter?

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:Yes. Fair point. We don't really have any young leggies coming through, which is a shame. Still, SLAs are not bad. Think Harmeet could be special. Darekar is good. Not sure about the rest though.

Eh?

Erm? Didn't I say on the other thread that I am no longer an England supporter?

Ok. That was a quick transition. Suggest you change your username.

Indeed!

I suppor India, Australia and NZ now. Also a soft spot for the Windies.

Have I just walked in on some sort of skit?

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I suppor India, Australia and NZ now. Also a soft spot for the Windies.

Is that in order? And just out of interest with no malice intended (honestly), why those teams?

Mike Selig wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I suppor India, Australia and NZ now. Also a soft spot for the Windies.

Is that in order? And just out of interest with no malice intended (honestly), why those teams?

Yes, in order. Why those teams? India because thats my country. Australia? Dunno. NZ? Nice blokes. Some talent too. Windies? Same.

And England?

Erm, no.

Any reason. Surely not because Pietersen hasn't been picked?

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I suppor India, Australia and NZ now. Also a soft spot for the Windies.

Is that in order? And just out of interest with no malice intended (honestly), why those teams?

Yes, in order. Why those teams? India because thats my country. Australia? Dunno. NZ? Nice blokes. Some talent too. Windies? Same.

Shanky - so your new user name becomes:

shankyoneofthebiggestindfanswithsoftspotsforaus,nzandwindieswhileengleaveoutkp

It doesn't roll off the tongue and onto the keyboard but, hey, as long as it reflects the situation.

Stella wrote:Any reason. Surely not because Pietersen hasn't been picked?

Not because he hasn't picked. Its the double standards surrounding the KP scenario.

guildfordbat wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:

Mike Selig wrote:

shankythebiggestengfan wrote:I suppor India, Australia and NZ now. Also a soft spot for the Windies.

Is that in order? And just out of interest with no malice intended (honestly), why those teams?

Yes, in order. Why those teams? India because thats my country. Australia? Dunno. NZ? Nice blokes. Some talent too. Windies? Same.

Shanky - so your new user name becomes:

shankyoneofthebiggestindfanswithsoftspotsforaus,nzandwindieswhileengleaveoutkp

It doesn't roll off the tongue and onto the keyboard but, hey, as long as it reflects the situation.

Nah, it will just be ShankyCricket

Shanky, I'll change that for you now, if you like?

I've seen some bandwagon jumping in my time but changing the national team you support overnight!

Fists of Fury wrote:Shanky, I'll change that for you now, if you like?

VTR wrote:I've seen some bandwagon jumping in my time but changing the national team you support overnight!

Well, I hope Mike Selig and Shelsey don't think they can switch their support from Middlesex to Surrey like that!

Deleted. Seemed much funnier at the time. Really I must start thinking a bit more before I post sometimes.

In answer to guildford, I don't think there's much chance of that happening anyway...

Well ashwin remains the best Indian spinner on form and talent.....and undoubted first choice selection.

Harbhajan is India's all time great spinner...who went horribly out of form for a long period and showed to those who have seen and known his bolwing enouhg a couple of days back....to believe he is back.

he will have to show consistency by performaing in ranji, challenger and other forms of cricket being played in the Indian season.

If he does manitain his form...there is no reason why India cannot play with 3 spinners......in India...for I am a believer best bowlers must play...regardless of whther all the seamers are left arm...and all the spinners are leggies..

imagine if you had 2 ajmals one bowling from each end?

Well Bhajji at his best and Ashwin are a little short of ajmal .......but would be a deadly combination bowling in tandem.

KP_fan wrote:Well ashwin remains the best Indian spinner on form and talent.....and undoubted first choice selection.

Harbhajan is India's all time great spinner...who went horribly out of form for a long period and showed to those who have seen and known his bolwing enouhg a couple of days back....to believe he is back.

he will have to show consistency by performaing in ranji, challenger and other forms of cricket being played in the Indian season.

If he does manitain his form...there is no reason why India cannot play with 3 spinners......in India...for I am a believer best bowlers must play...regardless of whther all the seamers are left arm...and all the spinners are leggies..

imagine if you had 2 ajmals one bowling from each end?

Well Bhajji at his best and Ashwin are a little short of ajmal .......but would be a deadly combination bowling in tandem.

Erm.. Kumble? Prasanna? Chandrashekar? Bedi?

ShankyCricket wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Well ashwin remains the best Indian spinner on form and talent.....and undoubted first choice selection.

Harbhajan is India's all time great spinner...who went horribly out of form for a long period and showed to those who have seen and known his bolwing enouhg a couple of days back....to believe he is back.

he will have to show consistency by performaing in ranji, challenger and other forms of cricket being played in the Indian season.

If he does manitain his form...there is no reason why India cannot play with 3 spinners......in India...for I am a believer best bowlers must play...regardless of whther all the seamers are left arm...and all the spinners are leggies..

imagine if you had 2 ajmals one bowling from each end?

Well Bhajji at his best and Ashwin are a little short of ajmal .......but would be a deadly combination bowling in tandem.

Erm.. Kumble? Prasanna? Chandrashekar? Bedi?

yeah I meant Bhajji is one of the all time greats.....
Kumble to me ranks he greatest........then Chandra, then bedi, then Bhajji, then Gupte, then Prassana, then Mankad then Venkat and finally Doshi just about gets in

when is the first test?

Mike Selig wrote:Deleted. Seemed much funnier at the time. Really I must start thinking a bit more before I post sometimes.

In answer to guildford, I don't think there's much chance of that happening anyway...

Mike - your original post gave me a smile but clearly your call.

I'll take your last comment above as being no action planned and on that basis will ask the Corporal to stand down his troops.