England squad for India set to be announced

First topic message reminder :

England announce the squad for India at 11 tomorrow.

The rumour currently going round is that it will be: Cook, Root, Trott, Bell, Morgan, Bairstow, Bopara, Prior, Kieswetter, Swann, Patel, Tredwell, Broad, Anderson, Bresnan, Finn

A few surprises in there and I'm not sure I can agree with some of the decisions if this is true - no Monty, no Taylor, Ravi in despite his form, Morgan back in despite no FC runs in yonks.

I like Root but at this time, following the loss of two experienced batsmen, I reckon we need to unearth a Mike Hussey type who can slot straight in and score heavily - I reckon Carberry or Compton are more likely to do that.

The one position that is a bit up in the air is the Bopara one - some people think Compton will go and I'd assume it must be in place of Bopara.

CF wrote:when is the first test?

15th November.

KP_fan wrote:

yeah I meant Bhajji is one of the all time greats.....
Kumble to me ranks he greatest........then Chandra, then bedi, then Bhajji, then Gupte, then Prassana, then Mankad then Venkat and finally Doshi just about gets in

KP_fan, I find it incredibly difficult to put these players in any sort of order. I've been lucky enough to see most of them bowl but probably not over a meaningful enough period to make a valid judgment. Kumble was past his best when I saw him whilst Harbhajan was far from effective.

The one who made the most initial impact when he first came to this country was Bedi. However, that was probably as much or even more the man as the bowler. Hard to explain that properly after all these years but his warm personality and constantly changing colourful turbans (an innovative thing at the time) really endeared him to the British public.

guildfordbat wrote: I'll take your last comment above as being no action planned and on that basis will ask the Corporal to stand down his troops.

Sadly, I missed the unedited version. But I could be confident there was no trace of hostility between old friends from across the Thames

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:

guildfordbat wrote: I'll take your last comment above as being no action planned and on that basis will ask the Corporal to stand down his troops.

Sadly, I missed the unedited version. But I could be confident there was no trace of hostility between old friends from across the Thames

It seems funny again now, but I felt could have been taken to have been poor taste given the subject's health problems.

No hostility for now. Waiting for the HoF thread to start up again for that...

Corporal - rest assured there was no hostility between old friends from across the Thames. Far more a political reference across the years but unfair on Mike to say any more.

Mike Selig wrote: No hostility for now. Waiting for the HoF thread to start up again for that...

Or maybe a strategic alliance to get Patsy Hendren, one of the greatest ever Middlesex and England batsmen, voted into the HoF!

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

yeah I meant Bhajji is one of the all time greats.....
Kumble to me ranks he greatest........then Chandra, then bedi, then Bhajji, then Gupte, then Prassana, then Mankad then Venkat and finally Doshi just about gets in

KP_fan, I find it incredibly difficult to put these players in any sort of order. I've been lucky enough to see most of them bowl but probably not over a meaningful enough period to make a valid judgment. Kumble was past his best when I saw him whilst Harbhajan was far from effective.

The one who made the most initial impact when he first came to this country was Bedi. However, that was probably as much or even more the man as the bowler. Hard to explain that properly after all these years but his warm personality and constantly changing colourful turbans (an innovative thing at the time) really endeared him to the British public.

I doubt you would have seen Gupte and Mankad.....even I haven't..... but have read accounts of and spoken to those who saw them.

Gavasakar in early days of Warne compared him to Gupte......as it turned out Warne far exceeded Gupte....but it is one measure of what Gupte might have been like.
Physically a small statured man...it was said of Gupte he could turn the ball even on a glass surface....such was his ability to spin big and produce big ripping googlies

I have a rationale for ranking them........but it requires some time writing a long article...and I will do it some day

i know its only 20-20 but im not convinced by Bairstow playing spin at all, and think he will struggle badly in india!

KP_fan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

yeah I meant Bhajji is one of the all time greats.....
Kumble to me ranks he greatest........then Chandra, then bedi, then Bhajji, then Gupte, then Prassana, then Mankad then Venkat and finally Doshi just about gets in

KP_fan, I find it incredibly difficult to put these players in any sort of order. I've been lucky enough to see most of them bowl but probably not over a meaningful enough period to make a valid judgment. Kumble was past his best when I saw him whilst Harbhajan was far from effective.

The one who made the most initial impact when he first came to this country was Bedi. However, that was probably as much or even more the man as the bowler. Hard to explain that properly after all these years but his warm personality and constantly changing colourful turbans (an innovative thing at the time) really endeared him to the British public.

I doubt you would have seen Gupte and Mankad.....even I haven't..... but have read accounts of and spoken to those who saw them.

Gavasakar in early days of Warne compared him to Gupte......as it turned out Warne far exceeded Gupte....but it is one measure of what Gupte might have been like.
Physically a small statured man...it was said of Gupte he could turn the ball even on a glass surface....such was his ability to spin big and produce big ripping googlies

I have a rationale for ranking them........but it requires some time writing a long article...and I will do it some day

KP_fan, you're quite right. Gupte and Mankad are the two (the only two) of those you listed that I haven't seen. I have to be honest and confess I don't know much about Gupte. I would be genuinely interested in reading one day your rationale for ranking them all.

CF, I agree, this is what I wrote when they announced the squad.

Mike Selig wrote:
I actually think Bairstow may struggle a bit on this tour (which will no doubt lead to the usual knee-jerking suggestions that he was never good enough anyway) - I have said in the past that his technique has a bit of Ponting about it, and am not convinced he will handle the Indian spinners and conditions all that well. With that in mind, I think the higher you can put him up the order, the better.

im glad someone agrees with me lol!

I'm fairly sure guildford has raised it as a concern as well.

guildfordbat wrote:

I think Morgan's selection is the closest the selectors would go to giving a wild card and probably one considered appropriate in view of Pietersen's omission. Following up on a point made by Mike, I think Bairstow might be the one most in danger during the series if the selectors look to bring in Patel. I certainly don't regard Bairstow's place as nailed on. Things can change very quickly ....

CF / Mike - there you go! Extracted response to a post from msp.

So that's all the bases covered: wise, experienced man and young impetuous rebel...

Yep, I also said at the time something along the lines of 'I'm surprised how quickly people seem to have gone from being ambivalent toward Bairstow to seeing him as one of the first names on the teamsheet'.

As I suspected a few dodgy T20 knocks and he's not the man of the moment people saw him as a few weeks ago.

Of course he's earned his place for India, and will almost certainly play in the 1st Test. But I'm not altogether pleased with the idea of Bairstow and Morgan at 5 and 6, as will almost certainly be the case.

Bairstow and Morgan both in the test side would worry me..

this would be my side for the first test

Cook
Root
Trott
Bell
Compton
Prior
Patel
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Finn

You would drop Bairstow after his last test match? That's just not going to happen, you don't drop someone who made 95 and 50odd in his last game...

I would bat Bairstow at 4, maybe even at 3 TBH, because he's more a top order player than middle order anyway IMO.

Morgan may do well, he's improved his technique on a few key points and is obviously in good form. He's also one of England's best fielders (with Anderson and Bairstow).

I just can't see Patel's bowling doing anything. With that in mind he's certainly not amongst the top 6 batsmen on the trip...

CF wrote:Bairstow and Morgan both in the test side would worry me..

this would be my side for the first test

Cook
Root
Trott
Bell
Compton
Prior
Patel
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Finn

Bairstow for Root with Compton opening and that is my team too.

Mike Selig wrote:You would drop Bairstow after his last test match? That's just not going to happen, you don't drop someone who made 95 and 50odd in his last game...

I would bat Bairstow at 4, maybe even at 3 TBH, because he's more a top order player than middle order anyway IMO.

Morgan may do well, he's improved his technique on a few key points and is obviously in good form. He's also one of England's best fielders (with Anderson and Bairstow).

I just can't see Patel's bowling doing anything. With that in mind he's certainly not amongst the top 6 batsmen on the trip...

Better FC batsman than Morgan. You are the only one on this board who seems to believe that Morgan will do well.

Better FC batsman than Vaughan and Trescothick were when they started their test careers if you're only going by the stats.

Meanwhile in the real world, Morgan is clearly a better batsman than Patel. And showed he can destroy bowling even in the subcontinent. Which you said he couldn't do.

Always nice to bring the Vaughan/Tresco comparison, isn't it? Of course, teams should not be selected solely based on the stats but an average of 18 in this year's CC would seem to suggest a serious problem.

Out of nick at the start of the season after bench-warming at the IPL. A few slightly unlucky dismissals. Got his form back in the shorter formats, and played reasonably for the Lions in his only first class matches since then.

Last year the problems were obviously technical, and he has ironed out some of his more major flaws.

I don't think there's a serious problem. Problems certainly, but every player has problems.

What he does have is special ability and to be able to take the game away from the opposition; and he's tough mentally. On that basis and given England don't have that many strong options with the bat at the moment I'd say he's worth another shot.

He is definitely worth another shot but I'd give him his "another shot" after he has done well in FC cricket.

I have no problems with picking a player based on a "hunch" rather than merit the first time around. But if that "hunch" fails, then it really doesn't make any sense to recall the same player based on a "hunch" without having scored FC runs.

To be fair, he did ok (not great, but ok) until the UAE, when the wheels came off for everyone.

I still think ODI ability is a better guide to test ability than FC records. Unless there is an obvious technical glitch (like Bevan/Raina who couldn't/can't play the short ball; Raina of course seemingly can't play off-spin in tests either).

CF wrote:Bairstow and Morgan both in the test side would worry me..

this would be my side for the first test

Cook
Root
Trott
Bell
Compton
Prior
Patel
Swann
Broad
Anderson
Finn

You have concerns about Bairstow's yet to be evaluated ability to play spin bowling in Tests , and doubts over Morgan's reliability ...yet apparently have no problem with including two first gamers in a line up of only five pure batsmen ?

Definitely a courageous decision ... (as Sir Humphey used to say when he wished to dissuade the PM from some action )

I think I would sooner start the series with a more experienced lineup , and at least give Bairstow a chance to show what he can do in Indian conditions...he has already shown that he can learn quickly , judging from the way he came back from being worked over by West Indian pace to play well against a superior SA fast attack. Granted spin is different and he may not handle it , but if you are going to drop him before the series even starts there isn't much point in taking him on the tour , is there ? He won't get better carrying the drinks...
Morgan has been picked for this tour for his experience , and a perceived ability to play spin bowling better than many of England's batsmen. I'd be very surprised if he didn't start in the XI.

Not to say there won't be changes as the series goes on ....

Mike Selig wrote:You would drop Bairstow after his last test match? That's just not going to happen, you don't drop someone who made 95 and 50odd in his last game...

I would bat Bairstow at 4, maybe even at 3 TBH, because he's more a top order player than middle order anyway IMO.

Morgan may do well, he's improved his technique on a few key points and is obviously in good form. He's also one of England's best fielders (with Anderson and Bairstow).

I just can't see Patel's bowling doing anything. With that in mind he's certainly not amongst the top 6 batsmen on the trip...

That's an interesting point, but it isn't unique to Bairstow - surely the problem is that virtually all England's batsmen on this tour would probably do better if they batted higher up the order?

ShankyCricket wrote:I have no problems with picking a player based on a "hunch" rather than merit the first time around. But if that "hunch" fails, then it really doesn't make any sense to recall the same player based on a "hunch" without having scored FC runs.

Was first time around a hunch? He was picked for the test team because his form in ODI's was fantastic over a long period of time.

One criticism labelled at the England batting line-up without a certain Mr Pietersen is that there is no-one to take the game away from the opposition, I think Morgan is the only one in the squad capable of doing so.

I'd go for:

Cook
Root
Trott
Bell
Morgan
Bairstow
Prior
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

Mat wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:I have no problems with picking a player based on a "hunch" rather than merit the first time around. But if that "hunch" fails, then it really doesn't make any sense to recall the same player based on a "hunch" without having scored FC runs.

Was first time around a hunch? He was picked for the test team because his form in ODI's was fantastic over a long period of time.

One criticism labelled at the England batting line-up without a certain Mr Pietersen is that there is no-one to take the game away from the opposition, I think Morgan is the only one in the squad capable of doing so.

I'd go for:

Cook
Root
Trott
Bell
Morgan
Bairstow
Prior
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

Morgan seems to be the Raina of England...who can blast the opponents apart and take the game away......when his mind is set and conditionsed on a 20 over scale.

and Raina has done this dozens of times for India in limited overs....but failed to replicate that in the ample test opportunities he has got.

It's in the conditioning of the mind that is unbale to replicate the 20 over scale over a 5 day game........and actually there are a few batsmen in that category.....Yuvraj also.

i agree KP fan, both morgan and raina have a lot of talent, but i dont think they can adapt to the longer form of the game!

CF wrote:i agree KP fan, both morgan and raina have a lot of talent, but i dont think they can adapt to the longer form of the game!

Yes you are right....they are not cut out for the longer form.
Look no further than their FC records........Raina's ordinary and Morgan's poor.
shows they cannot adapt to the longer version even at the less competitive FC level

Mike Selig wrote:You would drop Bairstow after his last test match? That's just not going to happen, you don't drop someone who made 95 and 50odd in his last game...

I would bat Bairstow at 4, maybe even at 3 TBH, because he's more a top order player than middle order anyway IMO.

Morgan may do well, he's improved his technique on a few key points and is obviously in good form. He's also one of England's best fielders (with Anderson and Bairstow).

I just can't see Patel's bowling doing anything. With that in mind he's certainly not amongst the top 6 batsmen on the trip...

i would leave out bairstow, he's a poor player of spin, and the likes of root etc, are much better players of spin!