Munster v Dragons

First topic message reminder :

Obviously this will be difficult for all the Irish provices due to Nevin Spence's death. I expect to see Sean Dougall excused for this game as he and Nevin were close friends. Same with BJ Botha who played with him at Ulster and probably his U20s team mates from Munster too.

Probable team:

01 Wian du Preez
02 Mike Sherry
03 Stephen Archer
04 Donncha O'Callaghan
05 Dave Foley
06 Billy Holland
07 Niall Ronan
08 James Coughlan
09 Conor Murray
10 Ronan O'Gara
11 Keith Earls
12 JJ Hanrahan
13 Danny Barnes
14 Doug Howlett
15 Denis Hurley

16 Dave Kilcoyne
17 Damien Varley
18 Christy Condon
19 Philip Donellan
20 Barry O'Mahony
21 Peter Stringer
22 Scott Deasy
23 Ivan Dineen

Gibson wrote:He looks free DOD. As does Zebo. This will be good for Ireland too.

33-13 in real time. 26-6 stream time.

Nope,makes no difference with Ireland until we get that plank Kidney out.

You know how I feel about that Sore. Lets just wait, but it shouldn't stop him bringing thro and entrusting in youth, on his way out. He should be the one to signal the end of ROG's, POC's, DOC's, Darcy's & BOD's international careers. But he wont.

I swore I wouldnt talk about this.

If Munster hope to do anything this season, they will have to put their faith in Keatley. Rog is gone. Murray made a big difference when he came on, besides the stupid mistake for the dragons try. Earls had a great game, involved fairly heavily in 4 of the tries.

Its looking good for Munster, Val. Penney is no gob. He will bring Keatley thro at 10. JJ is so good though. Must be given his chance at 10 or 12. He's a bit special that lad. Like Madigan.

Some brilliant tries from Munster. Zebo was my MOTM but was impressed with Keatley, Earls, Ronan and the no 8 (doh mind gone blank) too.

I actually thought ROG had a really good game too.

Some serious pace in that Munster back line right now.

Gibson wrote:Its looking good for Munster, Val. Penney is no gob. He will bring Keatley thro at 10. JJ is so good though. Must be given his chance at 10 or 12. He's a bit special that lad. Like Madigan.

JJ showed enough in the few minutes he was on to convince me that he is going to make it. He's only 20 but he is physically up to pro rugby, and he has the confidence to be a star. I think Munster still have some problems though, that was a very poor Dragons team and the cut Munster open a few times, even if they were clueless once they got inside the 22. Some of the Munster old guard are still managing to hang on despite not being up to it, Horan is lucky to have a contract, Doc despite his positive start to the season was awful tonight, if Murray gets injured they have no one at scrumhalf, and Rog is a huge problem.

rodders; Butler was the 8.

Butler it was indeed . A fine performance from him.

Gibson wrote:Its looking good for Munster, Val. Penney is no gob. He will bring Keatley thro at 10. JJ is so good though. Must be given his chance at 10 or 12. He's a bit special that lad. Like Madigan.

.


Changing your tune about Madigan I see...Keatley is a stopgap to give ROG a rest every now and then, before hanrahan comes in. A bit like Sexton

rodders wrote:Some brilliant tries from Munster. Zebo was my MOTM but was impressed with Keatley, Earls, Ronan and the no 8 (doh mind gone blank) too.

I actually thought ROG had a really good game too.

Some serious pace in that Munster back line right now.

It's amazing the pace you can achieve when the coach lets you off a leash - and more importantly, gives you the stategic awareness and hints and tips tools to make the release of the chains effective. The best thing that has happened Munster is the arrival of Penney, because Ireland International needs Munster believing in this rugby or we're shooting with blanks at International. Munster has to be on board in mind and in weekly action.

Now all we need is for our International coaches to accept the truth, follow along and offer the players from all the Provinces the game that will merge fluidly with the game they choose to play at those Provinces.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

Get out of that lake, DOD - I'm getting fed up taking my bloody hook out of your jaw and dropping you back in.

Hmmm - I must try some diffferent bait next time.

Earls ran some poor lines at times and butchered at least 1 try ...... oops sorry thought this was UAFC.....

Fly - most Ireland players don't have pace (exceptions now are Earls, Fitz & Zebo). You may recall my many posts bemoaning the loss of Fitz (& O'Leary) because of their pace.

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rodders wrote:Earls ran some poor lines at times and butchered at least 1 try ...... oops sorry thought this was UAFC.....

Are they in De Nile over there?

DOD wrote:

Gibson wrote:Its looking good for Munster, Val. Penney is no gob. He will bring Keatley thro at 10. JJ is so good though. Must be given his chance at 10 or 12. He's a bit special that lad. Like Madigan.

.


Changing your tune about Madigan I see...Keatley is a stopgap to give ROG a rest every now and then, before hanrahan comes in. A bit like Sexton

Ha! Not changing my tune. I saw it early, just like I did with Sexton 4 years ago. He has the magic of a BOD. But, he is a long way from Sexton yet. The best Standoff in the NH. And top 3 in the World.

The player Munster and the rest of the World should be concerned about, is Macken.

I really think Earls should move back to the wing, where he is relatively safe. He wont be able to resist Macken or O Malley in the centre. They just have far more about them. Like brains an ting.

Ive said it before, Earls is not smart enough to be a top class 13.

Sin é wrote:Fly - most Ireland players don't have pace (exceptions now are Earls, Fitz & Zebo). You may recall my many posts bemoaning the loss of Fitz (& O'Leary) because of their pace.

Believe what you will believe, Sin é. Your entitlement. Exciting performance from the Munster boys tonight but Ireland isn't a problem of lack of players it's a problem of conservative ideas. But we won't get into Ireland. This is Munster. Good game - congratulations to the guys on the win.

Yeah Fly but if they actually attempt to try play sexshy rugby against us, I think I'll die laffin. Be far too weird.

It was a strange sort of game. Everything lately is 100 mph with Munster. Theres a lot of spilled ball and mis placed passes but they're scoring some cracking tries.

I think Keatley will be playing at 10 for the big matches. He gives Munster an extra attacking dimension.

All wumming aside, I do believe Munster are in a far better spot than most envisioned. It is a transition period, but things don't look so bad down on the farm. Some great young players and a coach that will get the best out of them. That's where he comes from, with the Baby Blacks.

Its a new Red Dawn.

Gibson wrote:Yeah Fly but if they actually attempt to try play sexshy against us, I think I'll die laffin. Be far too weird.

Well................ hmmm, the way we played tonight... I don't know, Gibbo. We looked pretty damned sluggish and one dimensional. Yep it was a powerful Edinburgh but us strolling to lineouts is something I might understand at many level in early season - I don't have to like it though, and didn't. Not enough soul out there - much too casual.

Fly,

Check the last two seasons. It is frighteningly symmetrical. We will start surging soon. Always best not to peak too early, one finds. Hold it back to shaag de big boys in the HC.

I think Joe has a plan that works. Say nowt. This is a Munster thread. They are already copying our playing-style after a 100 years. What next? Dube-wellies and an Aran sweater over de shoulders like? Dont think so.

Gibson wrote:Fly,

Check the last two seasons. It is frighteningly symmetrical. We will start surging soon. Always best not to peak too early one finds dahlink. Hold it back to shaag de big boys in the HC.

I think Joe has a plan that works. Say nowt.

Well yep - I know that plan...and tend to like it (so by my reference to early season and sauntering pace). But this year will need a tad more effort, I feel. The opposition will be that tad more difficult, I feel - in my bones. There mightn't be as much leverage to glide easily up the gears. I just hope Joe has his finger on the pulse of this most important year. This is the history making one if he and the team control it right and get some of the luck too. Big goals out there.

Gibson wrote:All wumming aside, I do believe Munster are in a far better spot than most envisioned. It is a transition period, but things don't look so bad down on the farm. Some great young players and a coach that will get the best out of them. That's where he comes from, with the Baby Blacks.

Its a new Red Dawn.

Its Anscombe who has the good history with the Baby Blacks. Penney lost the final.

According to a poster on Munsterfans, ROG was interviewed by 95FM during the week - ROG said

- Rob Penney is a breath of fresh air, he doesn't do stress, therefore gives guys great confidence, especially the young ones, to try things
- Mannix a really good appointment, is very strong-minded which is what you need in a coach...

But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Gibson..Sexton is a decent OH but nothing more. His time is already coming to an end. He was never going to have the same impact as ROG and only because of ROGs age got his chance. Madigan and Hanrahan are the future which will be arriving at 5.30 this evening...

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Thank god its not up to you to make any decisions. Give the ROG bashing a rest, will you

ROG had a cracking game yesterday, had the old swagger back. Keatley was electric though and brings an extra cutting edge in attack.

Did I imagine this or did ROG absolutely flatten Tuilagi with a head on tackle in the 2nd half?

Not much more we can get out of ROG.

I want to see Keatley, Jackson and Madigan getting plenty of gametime. Jackson is full of potential and will probably be an international option in 1 or 2 years. Keatley is pretty much already there, he deserves to be first choice Munster 10 based on what I've seen of him so far this season. Madigan is another guy with loads of potential, but my concern is that the game he plays for Leinster is so far removed for Kidneys neanderthal gameplan. Madigan could thrive for Ireland if we get in a better coach.

Well I did say ROG still had a lot to offer Munster. This season and next season at LEAST. I didn't see Munsters resounding win but I'm assuming he played well from reading all this.

Morgannwg wrote:Well I did say ROG still had a lot to offer Munster. This season and next season at LEAST. I didn't see Munsters resounding win but I'm assuming he played well from reading all this.

i dont think anyone would dispute that. ROG still has a lot to offer munster but the national team is a different story.

Well some had said they don't want O'Gara in the Munster team when it's a must win game, I would say the total opposite to that.

Morgannwg wrote:Well some had said they don't want O'Gara in the Munster team when it's a must win game, I would say the total opposite to that.

Hes past his best now. His kicking isn't as good and teams are targeting him. The Welsh teams have been very successful targeting ROG in the last year or so.

profitius wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Well some had said they don't want O'Gara in the Munster team when it's a must win game, I would say the total opposite to that.

Hes past his best now. His kicking isn't as good and teams are targeting him. The Welsh teams have been very successful targeting ROG in the last year or so.

I would argue that the biggest problem with Rog isn't that other teams are targetting him, he has always been targetted, Wallace spent a career having to defend for two. The problem now is that Munster are having to adapt their game to cater for him. Downey was forced to play a different game last night, Keatley is able to play to the strengths of those around him, Rog is not.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Thank god its not up to you to make any decisions. Give the ROG bashing a rest, will you

Wtf are you on about? It's not Rog bashing to say that Keatley is the better player nowadays, and I've never said it's up to make any decisions.

ROG should not start any serious game for Munster this year. Is he still important ot Musnter? Absolutely he is, good man to have for the Rabo he won't be a mentor type I think. Wouldn't have the mentality for the that I think.


I know no one will get this reference but reminds me of the Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Favre was the old timer and Rodgers gets drafted high a few years before he is ready for the big stage, Rodgers sits and works out the kinks to his game but Favre wasn't exactly helping him along, his coaches and other team mates were the ones helping him mature. Keatley is obviously Rodgers in this scenario. That seems like how it has or will play out.

Thomond wrote:ROG should not start any serious game for Munster this year. Is he still important ot Musnter? Absolutely he is, good man to have for the Rabo he won't be a mentor type I think. Wouldn't have the mentality for the that I think.


I know no one will get this reference but reminds me of the Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Favre was the old timer and Rodgers gets drafted high a few years before he is ready for the big stage, Rodgers sits and works out the kinks to his game but Favre wasn't exactly helping him along, his coaches and other team mates were the ones helping him mature. Keatley is obviously Rodgers in this scenario. That seems like how it has or will play out.

As good as Keatley might be, hes no Rodgers. Rog has an awful lot to offer if he wants to help others, but he might leave that until he retires. I think that whatever Keatley does in the next year or so, you feel he is only keeping the jersey warm until JJ takes over.

Rodgers has only been alright so far this year but yes a top player. It was an imperfect comparison like but it was the only comparison I think Keatley won't reach that level but he is a very capable player and is a HC level outhalf in my view.

Thomond wrote:Rodgers has only been alright so far this year but yes a top player. It was an imperfect comparison like but it was the only comparison I think Keatley won't reach that level but he is a very capable player and is a HC level outhalf in my view.

In fairness the 49ers are unbelievably good defensively, he was much better against the Bears. We'll see how he goes against the Seahawks. It is a good comparison, in fairness, I was just being a bit of a gosh**e.

We could do with some fresh blood on the American footballsection, if you're interested hop on there!

Thomond wrote:We could do with some fresh blood on the American footballsection, if you're interested hop on there!

Might do that, living in SF again, and I'd forgotten how appalling the time difference is when it comes to watching sports back home. Its only 7.30 and I've been up for hours. The HEC and international afternoon games are going to be a killer.

I feel your pain,staying up late overhere for the NFL and things can be difficult. The majority of big rugby games (HC and international) tend to pop up on youtube now though so there's a good chance you will be able to watch it when you like and for free. Gibbo would probably help you with a proxy if you wanted........

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Thank god its not up to you to make any decisions. Give the ROG bashing a rest, will you

Wtf are you on about? It's not Rog bashing to say that Keatley is the better player nowadays, and I've never said it's up to make any decisions.

You haven't stopped moaning about ROG on this thread and how Penney should drop him.

Sorry, good and all as Keatley has been, his tactical kicking is Poopie. And when you see Doug Howlett kicking, you know that the rest of them are Poopie as well. Having a breaking SH & OH together can be just as predictable as having a kicking/passing OH & SH (like ROG & Stringer together).

Thomond wrote:I feel your pain,staying up late overhere for the NFL and things can be difficult. The majority of big rugby games (HC and international) tend to pop up on youtube now though so there's a good chance you will be able to watch it when you like and for free. Gibbo would probably help you with a proxy if you wanted........

Nah, I have my proxy sorted, was living in France before here, so needed one there. Youtube is great for when I miss a game, but I always find it hard not to look up the result if I haven't seen the match and that ruins some of the enjoyment. The rabo games are great as they're normally on at a reasonable time, so I can watch most of them.

valjester wrote:

Thomond wrote:ROG should not start any serious game for Munster this year. Is he still important ot Musnter? Absolutely he is, good man to have for the Rabo he won't be a mentor type I think. Wouldn't have the mentality for the that I think.


I know no one will get this reference but reminds me of the Green Bay Packers with Brett Favre and Aaron Rodgers. Favre was the old timer and Rodgers gets drafted high a few years before he is ready for the big stage, Rodgers sits and works out the kinks to his game but Favre wasn't exactly helping him along, his coaches and other team mates were the ones helping him mature. Keatley is obviously Rodgers in this scenario. That seems like how it has or will play out.

As good as Keatley might be, hes no Rodgers. Rog has an awful lot to offer if he wants to help others, but he might leave that until he retires. I think that whatever Keatley does in the next year or so, you feel he is only keeping the jersey warm until JJ takes over.

Yep, JJ has it all - especially a kicking game.

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Thank god its not up to you to make any decisions. Give the ROG bashing a rest, will you

Wtf are you on about? It's not Rog bashing to say that Keatley is the better player nowadays, and I've never said it's up to make any decisions.

You haven't stopped moaning about ROG on this thread and how Penney should drop him.

Sorry, good and all as Keatley has been, his tactical kicking is Poopie. And when you see Doug Howlett kicking, you know that the rest of them are Poopie as well. Having a breaking SH & OH together can be just as predictable as having a kicking/passing OH & SH (like ROG & Stringer together).

Did you actually watch the game last night? If you saw it, you'd realise that Rog has lost an awful lot of distance on his kicks, it doesn't matter how good is tactical kicking was, he can still put in plenty of good kicks but before he was pinning the opposition back into their 22, now he gains 20yards at most. Even if he was still kicking well, the rest of his game is no longer up to the standard required. Keatley has show with Connacht that he can kick, maybe not consistently, but he needs to be given the chance to improve. Earls and Zebo are well able to kick, although I agree that Howlett should never put boot to ball.

Edit; JJ's kicking game still needs work as well.

JJ is 20 nowhere near the finished article and you wouldn't expect him to be. When a player goes for the line from a penalty it's always a bad sign if the linesman walk back from their original stance. They did that every time ROG went for the line, he has the heart but not the skills, some fans don't realise this yet.

Thomond wrote:JJ is 20 nowhere near the finished article and you wouldn't expect him to be. When a player goes for the line from a penalty it's always a bad sign if the linesman walk back from their original stance. They did that every time ROG went for the line, he has the heart but not the skills, some fans don't realise this yet.

The most annoying thing about it is, that last night, Zebo and Earls were playing and the both have huge boots, not to mention Keatley. The out half doesn't have to take the kicks. It is quite annoying because you can tell his brain clearly knows what to do, but his legs are shot.

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Sin é wrote:

valjester wrote:

Gibson wrote:But SIN, ROG is old guard, he's best out of Penney's way. The best thing he could do for Munster now - is to retire. Move over and stop being a stroppy red-faced baby about it. He's even talked of the Lions. I mean. Really?

If Penney really means business, he will finish the Munster old-guard this season.

Bye ROG. So long and tanks for all the kicks.

It's not up to Rog to retire, you can't expect any player to retire, they will always feel they have something to offer. It's up to Penney and the coaching staff to drop him. Rog will cling on as long as he is allowed to,the same as any other player would.

Thank god its not up to you to make any decisions. Give the ROG bashing a rest, will you

Wtf are you on about? It's not Rog bashing to say that Keatley is the better player nowadays, and I've never said it's up to make any decisions.

You haven't stopped moaning about ROG on this thread and how Penney should drop him.

Sorry, good and all as Keatley has been, his tactical kicking is Poopie. And when you see Doug Howlett kicking, you know that the rest of them are Poopie as well. Having a breaking SH & OH together can be just as predictable as having a kicking/passing OH & SH (like ROG & Stringer together).

Did you actually watch the game last night? If you saw it, you'd realise that Rog has lost an awful lot of distance on his kicks, it doesn't matter how good is tactical kicking was, he can still put in plenty of good kicks but before he was pinning the opposition back into their 22, now he gains 20yards at most. Even if he was still kicking well, the rest of his game is no longer up to the standard required. Keatley has show with Connacht that he can kick, maybe not consistently, but he needs to be given the chance to improve. Earls and Zebo are well able to kick, although I agree that Howlett should never put boot to ball.

Edit; JJ's kicking game still needs work as well.

There is more to tactical kicking than kicking the corners and looking for distance (none of the Munster backs are much use either at that aspect of the game). Its more about seeing space and using your boot to get the ball there (i.e., first few minutes in ROG lays down a marker and dinks over the Dragons defence which made them think twice about staying up too close for the rest of the game). Then there are the crossfield kicks & dinks which are far more effective than any break an outhalf makes generally ends up with getting caught up in a ruck with no one to direct play.

Keatley's does lots of things very well, but he isn't consistent. He might also lack concentration (as in missing that kick to touch to finish the game that nearly ended up in a try for the Dragons).

JJ's kicking does need work, but for a kid who only went 20 a few weeks ago, he has plenty of time to do it.