Carlos Ortiz, Puerto Rico's finest - do you agree?

Afternoon gents, how is everyone?

Fret not - this will be, by my standards, a fairly short and straightforward offering! But worth pondering all the same, I think. After yesterday's and this morning's debate regarding the great Julio Cesar Chavez, the most successful Mexican fighter of them all, I began to think of all the Puerto Rican fighters he vanquished; Juan La Porte, Edwin Rosario and Hector Camacho to name just a few.

You don't need to be any kind of boxing scholar to appreciate that, perhaps more than any other rivalry in boxing, the one which exists between Mexico and Puerto Rico is littered throughout history with epic battles, controversial indidents and, above all, some truly wonderful fighters. However, while the all-action, body-hooking Mexicans remain so heavily lauded, I feel that some of their great Puerto Rican contemporaries are, relatively speaking, unfairly forgotten to an extent.

So with that in mind, I thought it might be worthwhile to get your opinions on who was the greatest boxer to emerge from the island, and see if we can find the necessary gaps to separate some truly superb names from each other. After a little while of careful thinking, I've come up with this:

1) Carlos Ortiz
2) Wilfredo Gomez
3) Wilfred Benitez
4) Hector Camacho
5) Felix Trinidad
6) Miguel Cotto
7) Ivan Calderon
8) Esteban De Jesus
9) Edwin Rosario
10) Wilfredo Vasquez

Near misses; José Torres, Juan La Porte, Pedro Montanez, Sixto Escobar and Alfredo Escalera.

As ever, not an easy list to compile and I'm sure there will be plenty who'd disagree with how I see it.

So, does the list look any good to you? Any quibbles, be they major or minor? If there's sufficient response I'll go in to a little more depth on how I've come to the above order, but just a little something for you fine fellas to get your teeth in to for now.

Fire away if you like. Cheers.

Pretty much how I'd have it, chris. Almost tempted to switch Gomez and Benitez around but I think you've got it the right way round with Gomez' domination of super-bantam being the deciding factor.

Both have losses above when venturing to higher weights but these are against the very elite (Sanchez and Nelson for Gomez and Leonard and Hearns for Benitez) and both have equally fine wins at higher weights (Pintor and Laporte for Gomez and Duran for Benitez) which makes them very hard to split. However, Gomez was far more dominant at super-bantam than Benitez was at light-welter or welter and that just about tips the balance in his favour.

Thanks, Superfly. Gomez against Benitez did require a bit of thought, to be fair.

You could argue, I suppose, that Benitez was never thoroughly dominated around his peak years the way Gomez was against Sal, but Gomez was moving up in weight, which shouldn't be forgotten. It may have only been 4 lb, but Sal did look huge compared to Gomez come fight night.

As you allude to, at his treasured 122 lb, Gomez was a freak; his performances against Zarate and Pintor, regardless of whether or not they were Bantams moving up, were remarkable. But there was something indomitable about him at that weight, whereas Benitez, insanely gifted though he was, sometimes made fights harder tahn they needed to be. Sensational talent though, who'd have topped this list had he shared the single-mindedness and dedication of someone like Hagler.

Great article Chris as always, the thread definetly deserves more attention, however you haven't mentioned PED's and the word ducker in there so doesn't surprise me.

I cant fault your list mate as Super alluded in his nice reply, I guess if someone was to have a first look at Carlos ypu may hear people call him 'workmanlike', and it always seems a bit condescending; almost like he was some neolithic toiler, although I suppose he's one of those fighters who can appear unremarkable on first viewing if you don't know what you're looking Almost minimalistic upper body movement and feinting ability; good combination punching skills and finishing ability/killer instinct; top level ability at every range; tremendous physical strength, stamina, durability and ability on the inside.

A magnificent fighter by any standard; his reign at lightweight is not too far behind Duran's imo and maybe even challenges the tenures of both Leonard and Gans, though I'm happy to hear otherwise. Lightweight is the deepest division ever and Ortiz is nailed in the top 6 or 7, maybe as high as the top 3.

Puerto Ricos finest, I'd say so Chris.

Cheers Rodders

I won't argue with you chris...great list and you know your latinos!!!

Think he had Whittaker's number for sure!!

I'd have Rosario above Dejesus by the way.....Three time world champ at two weights....

I'd heard of everyone on the list apart from the guy at number one!

Sometimes feel out of my depth on here, but thankful for the education.

The list of people I have to check out goes on.....

Thanks for the replies, lads. Be sure to let me know when you've found a Lightweight / Light-Welter who doesn't have Whitaker's number won't you, Truss!?

With regards to De Jesus and Rosario, well at first I was going to edge Edwin a little in front of Esteban as it goes. But the more I thought about it, the more I leaned towards De Jesus' consistency. Rosario had that unfortunate habit of blowing hot and cold - for many of his best wins (Ramirez, Nazario, Randall etc), that same man turned the tide in a rematch. The same is true for De Jesus with regards to Duran, of course, but Duran is certainly a greater win than anything on Edwin's record, and was really the only man to have the wood on De Jesus during Esteban's peak years. Wouldn't object to anyone putting Rosario higher, though.

Rodney, you're absolutely right with regards to how Ortiz could sometimes leave you underwhelmed. I watched his second fight with Flash Elorde not long back - he didn't seem particularly quick in that fight, never looked like he could end the fight with a single shot, and didn't have a huge workrate, either - and yet Elorde, a genuinely great Super-Feather, couldn't so much as win a single round, so Ortiz was clearly doing everything right!

Regardless of that, his record and consistency makes him top dog, for me.

Ortiz is the monzon of the lighter weights

Tito is my favourite of that list. He is also probably the best. Certainly better than Camacho and Gomez (not as flashy or brutally exciting respectively). I'd pick him over Benitez also. Don't know much about Ortiz.

Tito was certainly a hell of a fighter, Az - I actually think he doesn't always get the credit he deserves. But I don't think he can really lay claim to being the best from Puerto Rico, be it on abilities or on record. Thinking about it now, however, putting him ahead of Camacho may be justified. Not much in it either way for me, but at the top I'd still say that the trio of Ortiz, Gomez and Benitez are separated by a bit of daylight from the chasing pack.

Unfairly, the fallout from the Oscar fight has clouded popular perception of Trinidad. It shouldn't. He deserves to rank within the top fifteen or so Welters of all time and I'd say that the young, left-hooking Trinidad of the nineties would be a seriously stern test for any 147 lb fighter in history, save for a very, very select few.

With Ortiz he holds wins over 3 undeniable greats in Loi, Laguna and Elorde, that in itself separates him from the rest.

88Chris05 wrote:Tito was certainly a hell of a fighter, Az - I actually think he doesn't always get the credit he deserves. But I don't think he can really lay claim to being the best from Puerto Rico, be it on abilities or on record. Thinking about it now, however, putting him ahead of Camacho may be justified. Not much in it either way for me, but at the top I'd still say that the trio of Ortiz, Gomez and Benitez are separated by a bit of daylight from the chasing pack.

Unfairly, the fallout from the Oscar fight has clouded popular perception of Trinidad. It shouldn't. He deserves to rank within the top fifteen or so Welters of all time and I'd say that the young, left-hooking Trinidad of the nineties would be a seriously stern test for any 147 lb fighter in history, save for a very, very select few.

I like Gomez. His fight with Pintor was one of the best ever. I wont hold it against him for his loss to Sal Sanchez or Nelson as they were special fighters. Possibly a justified higher ranking than Tito. But I struggle with ranking Benetiz over him if truth be told (in terms of H2H). Tito's jab would keep Wilfredo at bay. Also Willy gets far too much credit for winning the title at 17, although it is an incredible achievement in itself. Great fighter but I'd back Tito to win.

Ortiz, Gomez, and then tight between Trinidad and Benitez for me, Chris. Benitez's flaming out relatively early has to count against him to a degree, and he certainly never dominated at any weight the way Felix did at 147.

Nitpicking, I know, but generally an excellent list, as usual.

Thanks Az and Captain - perhaps Benitez and Tito are a little closer than I first thought.

However, with regards to Benitez's early decline, I'd actually argue that there isn't much between them in longevity at the highest level. Trinidad was still only twenty-eight then Hopkins brought him back down to earth with a bang, and after that he added nothing to his legacy. Wilfred was a few years younger when he hit his slippery slope, yes, but he also entered the highest class at a younger age than Tito, too. I appreciate that Tito had compiled an undefeated record prior to that, but realistically speaking, how many points can we really deduct from Benitez for losing to a young Ray Leonard?

I'd definitely accept that Trinidad did cram an awful lot in to his seven or eight years at the top, though. Defended his Welterweight title with appreciable frequency, unified belts both there and at 160 lb and generally took on all comers. I guess I'm pretty easily seduced by the effortless fluidity of Benitez's boxing - he was such a natural it was scary - but it's food for thought, all the same.

I'll always be a fan of Trindad's, though. That four-round shootout with Campas was a cracking slug fest.