Evolution of wingers

Read an article about how Lomu changed our percpetion of wingers in NZ: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/7694566/Coming-off-the-long-run-Wingers-worth-weighed-in-wows We plumped for a winger with Polynesian power, pace and... plosiveness.

Frankly I have to disagree that Lomu was the beginning of that change in perception. We had Inga the winger before Lomu. Obviously when Lomu trampled over Catt in 95 that image stuck in people's minds. Since that time we had the likes of Joe Rokocoko, Sivivatu on the wing and a whole host of club players like Caucau, Vidiri, Masaga who had a ton of pace and an eye for the tryline. None was particularly eyecatching in terms of workrate or helping out their fellow team mates but they made the headlines for the right reasons and it was easy to gloss over their shortcomings. Lomu stands out as our most recognised winger but put him in a Pepsi challenge with Goldie and Jeff Wilson ticked most of the boxes ahead of Lomu apart from smashing or trampling over players.

Now it seems there is a move away from that type of player. Gear and Savea have been in the squad this year but neither has gained a reputation in the way that Lomu did although Savea had an impressive debut. But in the World Cup Richard Kahui and Corey Jane were preferred over any Polynesian flyer.

When you look around in world rugby, it seems positions across the park have favoured bigger players. I remember growing up watching Terry Wright and Craig Green play on the wing. But when the professional era came in, size and power became more important. Speed was also important but big powerful players became all the rage.

Has this been just a general evolution in world rugby with the advent of professionalism and will anomalies like Shane Williams, Jason Robinson (ok he was fullback for most his career but go easy on me), Corey Jane, Dominici, Underwood etc die out altogether in a few years or is there still a place in modern rugby for a winger who can create space and finish well without having to be a freak of nature?

I think there certainly is a space for them in Union. Just hope England might pick one!

You raised some good points there. I think it depends on what the player adds for the team. Personally I value skillful, intelligent wingers with a high workrate, far more than I value power and pace. Corey Jane, Shane Williams etc being good examples. I know the French player us Irish fans fear most is Vincent Clerc who is small but has a great try scoring record and always does the right thing.

The wingers' size might also depend on how the speed of the game is evolving. The faster the game is the more it suits the smaller players. I think thats where rugby is headed but of course theres always room for the bigger players.

I'd agree about Lomu. I remember Ireland put Shane Horgan on him year ago. Horgan was over 16st so although not Lomus size, Lomu wasn't going to trample over him. Horgan nullified Lomu in that game and Ireland kicked in behind Lomu and won territory and penalties because Lomu was slow to turn and his skills were not the best. That day he was the NZ weak link.

We just used Joost with a broken arm to counter Lomu

All our wingers are smaller though more Jack Russel like. Run after the ball the whole time and try to catch it in the air. And just like my Jack Russells, if they caught it, it is going to be very difficult to get the ball back.

I wouldn't say the NZ wingers are smaller now. They look big, or on TV anyway.

Australia are struggling due to fielding a generally small and under powered back line. They were much more of a scary proposition in the days of Chris Latham, Lote Tuquiri, Mortlock, Larkham, et al.

Lomu was not the most skillful by any means but he had power and pace to burn. Only people near his size in a one on one situation had any chance against him. Generally he had to be team tackled.

If anything rugby is getting more powerful not less.

englandglory4ever wrote:Australia are struggling due to fielding a generally small and under powered back line. They were much more of a scary proposition in the days of Chris Latham, Lote Tuquiri, Mortlock, Larkham, et al.

Lomu was not the most skillful by any means but he had power and pace to burn. Only people near his size in a one on one situation had any chance against him. Generally he had to be team tackled.

If anything rugby is getting more powerful not less.

I'm not sure there's much evidence that that is why they are struggling- the same backline spanked Wales and won the last ever Tri Nations! It's more that all their players are injured or bizarrely and horribly out of form reflected presumably by their poor performance at club level this season. They tried to play some power centres in the beginning of the RC. They sucked. That is the only word to describe how Fainga'a and Horne played accurately.

SA made us select wingers that could act as pseudo fullbacks, turn and chase, catch and return high balls. Henry found that the levels at which SA sent the balls our way he could use them as an additional source of possession for attacking purpose so that we now have an extra string to our bow.

Taking the high balls is one thing...returning them with interest is another. Muilianas run in 2010 at Eden park from a high ball sixty meters out to cut through the entire SA defence to put mccaw in illustrated this.

It gave us a lot of 'attack from the back' practice, something we've become very good at. Last weekend illustrated how poor kicking can be punished with daggs initial take, setup, and eventual try in the right corner.

Historically there were relatively big wings like Ted Woodward and Katene,Lomu was a forward as fast as a back.Unlike Hennie Muller and BillClark who were as fast as backs but played as forwards.In NZ the 5/8 skillset was used to cover 15,12 and 10.The trend of wings acting as sweepers probably dates back to Stu Wilson,Bernie Fraser,and Allan Hewson.Hewson was a great Goal kick/counter attacker but average in the basic FB skills.It was common practice in Nz to have wings cover defend when"Cover Defence was in vogue".Wings these days seem to have at least one converterd 15 or a wing who can play at 15.The vogue of wings looking for work and creating breaks for others seems to have gone redundant.Zac Guildford on form creates more than either Savea or Gear on there recent form.Gear seems like a one season wonder,Savea not yet consistent.Guildford since his RWC antics has fallen from favour.

ChequeredJersey wrote: They tried to play some power centres in the beginning of the RC. They sucked. That is the only word to describe how Fainga'a and Horne played accurately.

For sure, never felt confident of scoring then they were in the line up

I think the size and skill set vaies with the evolution of the game. My feeling is that since the mid 2000's at least we have been heading into a more defensive oriented game and you need 2 3 players at the back who can cover ground, are great under the high ball, can kick return and have an eye for the counter attack (although this is becoming less important as the oppositions kick chase improves). The AB's need at least 2 kick receivers that can punt (i.e. Dagg and Jane). This allows them to control field position and defuse the bomb) and 1 power winger (e.g. Savea or Gear) to get them across the advantage line, break tackles, midfield crash, suck in the defence etc). because defence seems to have an increasing advantage over attack, players like Rokocoko and Sivivatu (not recognized kickers) get less opportunities and having two such players is a bit of luxury at the moment. That's my take on the AB's. Not sure about other teams.

I think teams will look for balance.

Players like North are brilliant, but England fans have a huge hope on cristian wade...half Norths size. So if a player is good enough he will be recognized.

PS Had the pleasure of watching inga a few times for the falcons...better than Lomu in my opinion

ChequeredJersey wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Australia are struggling due to fielding a generally small and under powered back line. They were much more of a scary proposition in the days of Chris Latham, Lote Tuquiri, Mortlock, Larkham, et al.

Lomu was not the most skillful by any means but he had power and pace to burn. Only people near his size in a one on one situation had any chance against him. Generally he had to be team tackled.

If anything rugby is getting more powerful not less.

I'm not sure there's much evidence that that is why they are struggling- the same backline spanked Wales and won the last ever Tri Nations! It's more that all their players are injured or bizarrely and horribly out of form reflected presumably by their poor performance at club level this season. They tried to play some power centres in the beginning of the RC. They sucked. That is the only word to describe how Fainga'a and Horne played accurately.

That is because they do suck. There is no comparison. Mortlock, Tuqiri and Latham were world class players.

If Australia can find some good physical players in the near future, then they must play them to compliment their skillful playmakers.

I wouldn't say they spanked Wales either, they sure did in the first test i'll grant you that but the 2nd and 3rd could have gone either way. I'm not making excuses but it was after a very long season of almost 12 months solid rugby for some players.

That last tri nations doesn't count for much, most Aussies will tell you that. South Africa played a b/c team and the Allblacks were testing combos preparing for the WC, Aus saw that as an opportunity to take advantage and go for it.

I must say I was quite uncomfortable reading the article at first as it felt subliminally racist to me. But then I thought, hey I’m not hugely clued in on NZ domestic wingers, maybe it’s just coincidental. That was, until I read the replies at the bottom of the page which confirmed my initial suspicions. Polynesians are big fast strong etc but don’t have the work rate of the white guys? FFS.
If you take Tommy Bowe as an example; Big guy, fast, strong, great skills with the turning circle of a Long Wheel Base Transit has never seen the bottom of a ruck and doesn’t cope well with a side step. Sound familiar? Ben Cohen was a similar type and one of my favourite players to watch. Thankfully there is still room in our game for all body shapes and long may it continue.
Getting back to Kia’s original point, I thought John Kirwan was the prototype for the modern monster winger back in the late 80’s. Long before professionalism came about. He was as tall as most back rowers and as heavy as a prop, in many ways he was the original and possibly the best.

Submachine

I think you are reading a sub-text that just isn't there. It just happens that quite a number of the big wingers over the last 20 years have been of Polynesian descent (and particularly those that have made a big impact on the game) - Tuigamala, Lomu, the various Tuillagis.

Clearly, England for one have spent a lot of time looking for comparable players, with the huge successes of Steve Hanley and Matt Bananaman springing to mind (Cohen wasn't quite in the Lomu size class, but to date is our one really successful big winger of the pro era).

My suspicion is that, as defences continue to improve, there will be a move away from the monster winger back towards the Jason Robinson / Shane Williams type, who have the speed off the mark and footwork to embarrass larger defenders - heck, rugby league, which is a far more physical game, has been tending to go that way for the last decade, with smaller and quicker wingers being used to run the ball out of defensive situations and use their speed and nimbleness to find space in the heavy traffic. Obviously, this will continue until someone finds a 22 stone Usain Bolt, and we'll swing back to the big guys again...

Fair comment submachine. Pat Lam had to put up with a lot of talkback radio, internet comment tripe.

But what all good wingers crave is space. That just doesn't seem to be happening at the moment in the 4N and so guile and trickery are required. It takes a special player to create space or forward monentum when nothing is on. When there is front foot ball though and space is found out wide, that's when the playing field becomes more level. Put Gear or Savea, for example, in the gap though and sit back and enjoy.

I like the look of Wade but I wonder how he'd do in test rugby when the space closes in round him. It doesn't matter what your physical attributes are, having a knack of finishing off a move with pressure from all sides is more valuable than blazing a run from your own 22. North and Ashton started their careers with a bang but once you have video footage to bone up on it becomes increasingly difficult to make an impact. Power or a big fend help in the former but it's not everything.

I think the big problem for wingers in test rugby at the moment is that the midfield is crowded with forwards and backs and teams are struggling to create overlap situations.

dummy_half wrote:Submachine

I think you are reading a sub-text that just isn't there. It just happens that quite a number of the big wingers over the last 20 years have been of Polynesian descent (and particularly those that have made a big impact on the game) - Tuigamala, Lomu, the various Tuillagis.

Clearly, England for one have spent a lot of time looking for comparable players, with the huge successes of Steve Hanley and Matt Bananaman springing to mind (Cohen wasn't quite in the Lomu size class, but to date is our one really successful big winger of the pro era).

My suspicion is that, as defences continue to improve, there will be a move away from the monster winger back towards the Jason Robinson / Shane Williams type, who have the speed off the mark and footwork to embarrass larger defenders - heck, rugby league, which is a far more physical game, has been tending to go that way for the last decade, with smaller and quicker wingers being used to run the ball out of defensive situations and use their speed and nimbleness to find space in the heavy traffic. Obviously, this will continue until someone finds a 22 stone Usain Bolt, and we'll swing back to the big guys again...

While the "wow" moments produced by these enigmatic players were abundant, I couldn't help question the emphasis that went on a winger's try-scoring ability as opposed to their on-field work rate. Rupeni Caucaunibuca, Marika Vunibaka, Fero Lasagavibau, Lome Fa'atau, Joeli Vidiri and countless more dazzling, exciting wingers at this time had very poor work rates. Plenty of tries, few runs and tackles. How often would we see big Joeli prop up on his opposite wing, clearing rucks or on fringe defence?

He is implying that these guys are lazy as they did not get involved in rucks etc. My point is that no matter your ethnicity if you are a giant winger you bring a different basket of items to the till. How many of the wingers he names as having a superior work rate created the same quality front foot ball when going into contact? How many extra defenders were taken out of play simply because they had to commit to the big guy? As I said, I agree with the commentators on the atricle. The journo is using selective stats to make a racially charged point that they are lazy.

Submachine,

Where on Earth do you get racist comments from anywhere in this thread APART from YOU bringing it up!!!??

Many of the premium wingers in NZ and in the World have been from an Oceanic background and of a larger than normal size. Fact. Wheres the racism?
Most people would agree that they have played in a certain way...power running, monstrous tackling etc. Fact.
Thats not saying Polynesians cant play another way its merely point out the highly successful styles of recent years. And it has been massively successful. Again NOT RACIST....

Asw mentioned previously many teams up North have tried to copy that...with North and Cuthbert etc coming about.

I am not commenting on the thread Geordie but on the article to which Kia provides a link in the OP and more specifically to the comments at the end of the article. Have you read the article?

Ok i apologise for jumping the gun...i hadnt read the article - i have now.

I must confess mind i dont think the author is being racist by saying all island wingers are lazy...just pointing out something he believes in many of their particular styles. Some people on here might agree to an extent...again not a racist thing. Certainly i dont believe it is anyway.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok i apologise for jumping the gun...i hadnt read the article - i have now.

I must confess mind i dont think the author is being racist by saying all island wingers are lazy...just pointing out something he believes in many of their particular styles. Some people on here might agree to an extent...again not a racist thing. Certainly i dont believe it is anyway.

Really? Maybe our definitions of racism are different but I would have thought stereotyping like this gets you into the club.

Anyway, I don't want to flog this to death. I still think John Kirwan was the model for the modern big winger. I can still recall the incredulity in his voice when Bill Mclaren would mention "the winger who weighs in at a masshive 15 shtones"

I was not stereotyping there I was referring to the.above comment...that u highlighted...and that was most definately not meant as a racist comment

But let's just leave it there....

This is why I try to avoid controversial commentary on here. The tone and meaning of words is so often misinterpreted. I did not mean to offend any poster. My issue is solely with the author of the article in the link. http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff-nation/7694566/Coming-off-the-long-run-Wingers-worth-weighed-in-wows

I think that that is a pretty poor article overall.
Very simplistic in its analysis and choices of names to used to show a point.

First Lomu was more than just big and fast. He was / became a fairly decent winger in many ways. The fact that Gear and Savea haven't succeeded so far is because they just aren't that good. Anyway isn't Kahui a big polynesian (well Maori) flier. Its just that Kahui happens to be an excellent player as well.

The article also forgets to mention a few wingers like Inga, Howlett and Umaga - who were hard working and successful wingers.

There's always been some big backs.

Cuppla things:

This stuff.co article is another exaple of their sub standard writing.
And Rupene caucau isnt polynesian but he was most definitely lazy.

Nga

Yes you are right , as Kahui is Maori he also is Polynesian.

Everyone else

I find it somewhat amazing that an article like this can be written and followed up with so many subsequent posts and no one has mentioned the Samoan winger that made us realise what an assett it was to have big, fast Poynesian wingers (with fullback skills) and a lethal side step, hailing out of the Ponsonby Ponies club, the same club as Inga Tuigamala, The mighty Bryan (Bee Gee) Williams.

Submachine wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ok i apologise for jumping the gun...i hadnt read the article - i have now.

I must confess mind i dont think the author is being racist by saying all island wingers are lazy...just pointing out something he believes in many of their particular styles. Some people on here might agree to an extent...again not a racist thing. Certainly i dont believe it is anyway.

Really? Maybe our definitions of racism are different but I would have thought stereotyping like this gets you into the club.

Anyway, I don't want to flog this to death. I still think John Kirwan was the model for the modern big winger. I can still recall the incredulity in his voice when Bill Mclaren would mention "the winger who weighs in at a masshive 15 shtones"

When people praise the Polynesians for their athletic ability, do you complain of racism then or does it only apply if something negative is pointed out? Thats your definition of racism. Its hard to take someone seriously if they're not consistent.

The article is a result of the website’s drive to include reader contributions so it isn’t the work of a journalist, it is the work of Jeff Bahmer of Opunake (ok so I don’t know where he’s from but you get the point). It’s just his take on things really.

Laurie, you’ve pointed out a good’un with BG. Here’s another one with a great work ethic – Tana Umaga. Was always working on the wing....wouldn’t have made it as a centre otherwise.

Joe Rokocoko was always extremely industrious, Dougy Howlett another one, Rico Gear (maori is pacific islander). I think the comparison to Terry Wright is ludicrous in my opinion. The bloke hardly weighed over 7 stone and from what I recall would wait till the ball came to him before doing anything with it.

I don't think the article is racist, just lazy

The main point about Lomu surely was he WAS`NT a wing but a loose forward playing as a wing for tactical purposes.Due to his kidney problem he seldom reached his true potential.His value was it took gang tackling to stop him then Jeff Wilson and Christian cullen filled there boots.Many wings used the Maori Sidestep,just as many were jinky runners.Some great allround players that used there heads to outwit defences,some out and out speedsters.Today with league style defences they have to be sweepers league style too.

I think Maori side step is probably a bit racist.

I think the lazy comments are true in a way. I grew up playing all my rugby in South Auckland. My teams were predominantly Maori/ Island and European based. Islanders in particular, tended to have two common strengths-speed/ flair and a love for the real physical side of the game.

They loved getting the ball, running with it, in through or around people- didnt matter. In defence they loved the big hits. Because of this they tended to get results, get selected for higher sides etc for those reasons.

The rest, the turn and chase stuff, the big 40-50 yard sprints just to cover some potential threat isnt something they were necessarily good at or cared about. generally they just wanted to do what they were really good at, and enjoyed.

Simply by having strengths in one area amplified the weaknesses in others. And their size and bone density doesnt help with all the aerobic work on a relative basis with non islanders.

Its no coincidence that the days of hard running wings- the Lomus, Rokos and Sivis were dominated largely by Islanders, when now the skill factor in returning the big kicks means theres less of them.

With the return to some more physicality on the wing and the lower impact of sides like SA putting pressure on us at the back, the return of the Savea types is returning.