Does your captain need to be in a certain position?

Read a thread about possible England candidates for the captaincy.

It got me thinking is it possible to pick captains from around the park and where have the best captains be concentrated?

I have always believed that the best place for your captain is somewhere in the engine room. I remember Phillipe Saint-André captained a winning French touring side to NZ but there aren't too many candidates out wide. Provincial or clubs have their captains. For example Doug Howlett is now the Munster captain I believe but there aren't too many cases of this. So feel free to add to my list, dispute my list (I'm not sure about a few) and give your opinion where the ideal place for a captain is other than the first name on the team sheet and your best player (because that works for BOD but I feel he is an example where being rid of the burden of the captaincy would actually be better for him now).

15. Gavin Hastings (iffy whether he actually captained)
14. Phillipe Saint-André
11. Ieuan Evans
13. BOD
12 Tana Umaga
10 Hugo Porta
9 Picot, David Kirk, Nick-Farr Jones (did Joost van der Westhuizen captain a few games?)
8. Buck Shelford
7. Richie McCaw
6. Francois Pienaar
5. Nobody aka John Eales
4. Martin Jonhson
3. Wilson Whineray
2. Sean Fitzpatrick, Ibanez
1. Phil Vickery

It's late but I'll be damned if I can think of a test prop captain whereas hooker, lock, and halfback seem to be popular positions for captain.

kia,

Ieuan Evans was captain for us for a long time from the wing, also not sure if Alfie captained us from the wing or if it was always from XV.

Jenkins has captained us from prop but not a good record, as the funbus ever skippered England and then theres David Sole from Scotland.

Phil Vickery was the England captain at prop.

kia

Ever hear of a bloke called Wilson Whineray?

It's late Laurie and Colin Meads tends to take the limelight rather than Whineray. But thanks for the suggestions all.

Any takers for 10?

Ever hear of a bloke called Hugo Porta?

Hasn't Felipe Contepomi skippered Argentina from 10 (though moving to 12 when Hernandez is fit)?

A few definites from longer ago:
Hugo Porta ARG
Cliff Morgan WAL
Adrian Stoop ENG, but since he invented the role of fly-half you might regard that as cheating a bit.

Actually, no.10 is interesting.
I cant think af a more astute reader and thinker of the game than Grant Fox, yet I can never recall him ever captaining Auckland let alone the All Blacks, Even if Fitzy or Zinny or Buck were around.

Did Barry John ever captain Wales?

I bow to your infinite knowledge laurie.

I don't remember the black and white era too well. I was born when TVs had colour. I know the players like Porta, Ella and Naas Botha but I'll be honest and don't recognise the names Morgan or Stoop pourfour. But I appreciate the input.

That's not too shabby a side really.

On the only two occasions that Scotland have done the Grand Slam since the War, the side was captained by a prop, Jim Aitken and David Sole. Dai Young also captained Wales a few times, I seem to remember, while the great Irish prop Ray McLoughlin also skippered his country more than once. No reason at all why it shouldn't have happened more often, though.

At 10, of course, Phil Bennett skippered Wales to a Grand Slam, as well as leading the Lions to New Zealand in 1977.

Stu Wilson on the wing

the capt need not be a 10 or playmaker but he must lead from the front and since the front implies the forwards my pref is always a lock/back row..... he must always set an example in his physicality and understanding of the game and the ref. Props aren't perhaps the best for this and in my view 9 and 10 shoudl be left out of it as they are so key to gameplan that having someone outside the playmaking set up is useful when the gameplan ain't woeking

To be fair I would like our current Bok captain to be on the sideline.

Benny captained us and also Wellies has but not sure if Cliff Morgan or Barry John ever did

Biltong wrote:To be fair I would like our current Bok captain to be on the sideline.

We've all been there mate. We feel your pain.

Basil Borthwick for England, (I know Steve was his real name but he just reminded me of a stroppier more heavily built version of Basil Fawlty), Reuben Thorne, Todd Blackadder and Taine Randell for NZ. I've never given up on my beloved AB team (well I did for Canterbury in the lean late 80s and well into the 90s. Thank God for Otago and Speights beer. CD and the Canterbury rugby team were a good match back then... utter pish) but geez Louise it's hard to get behind the team when the first name on the sheet is an absolute donkey.

i think the apt description for jean de Villiers is Mule.

He knows only one way, drop the head and go.

More like a Clydesdale work horse with blinkers on: no peripheral vision, able to do honest graft work but no fine touches about him.

Kia

Amazing that a team that has been so dominant through the years managed to have a string of such weak captains. Was it the result of internal politics in the New Zeland rugby union or did you just have an incompetent coach and weaker than usual group of players?

Oh, and while we are on the subject of poor captains, how can anyone have over-looked Phil de Glanville? Reasonably decent inside centre at club level (aided by playing alongside Jeremy Guscott, who for all his naffness as a pundit was a very good player), but how he ever got picked for England, never mind made captain is one of those things that continues to cause bewilderment 20 years later.

Rob Howley captained us from scrum half on a few occasions, I think you need your most respected player who is also well spoken to be captain, you would need your captain to be canny as well and be able to get on side with the ref so to speak. I do not think that it matters what position he plays in.

Dummy half, there's no such thing as a weak ABs side but during those late 90s early 2000s, that was as close as we got to the edge.

I think it was just a lean patch and no real contenders. Plenty of star performers but you need more than that to be captain. When you have someone of the pedigree of McCaw or Fitzpatrick in between, I guess it makes most people look like mugs. But it didn't make for pretty viewing. Canterbury was gaining ascendancy but the loss of Auckland as the powerhouse region of NZ took a long while to recover. Then again rebuilding for England is still going on to some extent after 2003 so you just have to make do with what you have got.

David Sole was a strong captain at prop.
Keith Wood at hooker?
Did popplewell or Clohessey ever Captain Ireland from Prop?

Jason Robinson at 15 and Jonny Wilkinson at 10.

PS Michael Lynagh at 10 over Porta also...

Kia

Thanks for the reply. I asked because some choices of captain for England (particularly in the amateur years) was clearly as influenced by internal RFU politics as any on-field ability.

I'm not sure I'd describe England as rebuilding from the 2000-2003 side - I think it's more a case of 'reversion to the mean', in that our normal level is somewhere between about 3rd and 6th in the world (in the same was that the ABs reverted to being clear world leaders after some beatable teams in the late 90s and early 00s). Having said that, it was interesting to see discussion of Will Greenwood on another thread yesterday - for me he is one of the players we've struggle most to replace.

dummy_half wrote:Kia

Thanks for the reply. I asked because some choices of captain for England (particularly in the amateur years) was clearly as influenced by internal RFU politics as any on-field ability.

I'm not sure I'd describe England as rebuilding from the 2000-2003 side - I think it's more a case of 'reversion to the mean', in that our normal level is somewhere between about 3rd and 6th in the world (in the same was that the ABs reverted to being clear world leaders after some beatable teams in the late 90s and early 00s). Having said that, it was interesting to see discussion of Will Greenwood on another thread yesterday - for me he is one of the players we've struggle most to replace.

100% Agree

Captain - no doesn't have to be best player. (O'Driscoll is many things but not a captain - too much of an individualist)

But neither does a Captain have to be the big Martin Johnson intimidator.

Just for the fun of it, I think some little smartass scrumhalves would make exceptional captains. The good ones goad and harry their forwards, shape them and control them and then can become central to the communication between those forward intentions and the backs.
Peter Stringer, Morgan Parra would have been interesting Captain experiments. Also 10s are quite central figures and hold that influencial mid ground between forwards and backs

Scotland captains:

Prop - mighty mouse McLauchln, Jim Aitken, David Sole, Tom Smith
Hooker - Colin Deans, Gary Callender, Gordon Bulloch, Ross Ford
Locks - Stuart Grimes, Scott Murray, Al Kellock
Backrow - Jim Telfer, Peter Brown, mike Biggar, Eric Peters, Jim Calder, David Leslie, Finlay Calder, Rob Wainright, Budge Pountney
Scrum half - Dougie Morgan, Roy Laidlaw, Gary Armstrong, Andy Nicol, Bryan Redpath, Mike Blair, Chris Cusiter, Rory Lawson
Fly half - Gregor Townsend
Centre - Ian McGeechan, John Leslie
Wing - Chris Paterson
Fullback - Ken Scotland, Andy Irvine, Gavin Hastings

A dearth of quality pivots over the last 40-50 years reflected in the paucity of captains at 10?

why did Ryan Jones fail at being capt?

dummy_half wrote:Kia

Thanks for the reply. I asked because some choices of captain for England (particularly in the amateur years) was clearly as influenced by internal RFU politics as any on-field ability.

I'm not sure I'd describe England as rebuilding from the 2000-2003 side - I think it's more a case of 'reversion to the mean', in that our normal level is somewhere between about 3rd and 6th in the world (in the same was that the ABs reverted to being clear world leaders after some beatable teams in the late 90s and early 00s). Having said that, it was interesting to see discussion of Will Greenwood on another thread yesterday - for me he is one of the players we've struggle most to replace.

I've said something like that before but no one seemed to notice or agree. I think the young fans who turned up in 2003 got a distorted perspective of England's usual place in world rugby. I'm not saying English fans shouldn't ask for more but that they shouldn't expect more until structurally things change. eg Windies and Sri Lankan cricket.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Scotland captains:

Prop - mighty mouse McLauchln, Jim Aitken, David Sole, Tom Smith
Hooker - Colin Deans, Gary Callender, Gordon Bulloch, Ross Ford
Locks - Stuart Grimes, Scott Murray, Al Kellock
Backrow - Jim Telfer, Peter Brown, mike Biggar, Eric Peters, Jim Calder, David Leslie, Finlay Calder, Rob Wainright, Budge Pountney
Scrum half - Dougie Morgan, Roy Laidlaw, Gary Armstrong, Andy Nicol, Bryan Redpath, Mike Blair, Chris Cusiter, Rory Lawson
Fly half - Gregor Townsend
Centre - Ian McGeechan, John Leslie
Wing - Chris Paterson
Fullback - Ken Scotland, Andy Irvine, Gavin Hastings

A dearth of quality pivots over the last 40-50 years reflected in the paucity of captains at 10?

The border terrier...the best of the lot

GeordieFalcon wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Scotland captains:

Prop - mighty mouse McLauchln, Jim Aitken, David Sole, Tom Smith
Hooker - Colin Deans, Gary Callender, Gordon Bulloch, Ross Ford
Locks - Stuart Grimes, Scott Murray, Al Kellock
Backrow - Jim Telfer, Peter Brown, mike Biggar, Eric Peters, Jim Calder, David Leslie, Finlay Calder, Rob Wainright, Budge Pountney
Scrum half - Dougie Morgan, Roy Laidlaw, Gary Armstrong, Andy Nicol, Bryan Redpath, Mike Blair, Chris Cusiter, Rory Lawson
Fly half - Gregor Townsend
Centre - Ian McGeechan, John Leslie
Wing - Chris Paterson
Fullback - Ken Scotland, Andy Irvine, Gavin Hastings

A dearth of quality pivots over the last 40-50 years reflected in the paucity of captains at 10?

The border terrier...the best of the lot

Certainly one of the Scottish greats, Geordie, but he's got tough competition in there - Scotland, Irvine, Hastings, Sole, Mighty Mouse, Telfer, Fin

Ah im just showing my Newcastle bias there...one of my favorite players in history mate...Newcastle fan favorite

So, who's gonna captain the captains, Nick Farr-Jones? That guy is a legend player. Great comments man on TV as well, very intelligent.

The captain of captains? Of players I've watched in any depth, it would be between Eales, Hastings and Johnson.

The Scots played out of their skins for Big Gav. But I think I'd still go for Johnno.

Captain of captains is a good question. You can go purely on results, in which case a lot of recent All Black skippers would probably hold the call. However, it seems to me that the captains who have welded together sides capable of beating apparently stronger combinations also deserve particular commendation. In that regard, Johnson's achievements with the 97 Lions merit especially high rank, for me.

Others who would be in the mix for the most inspirational captains, combining both leadership qualities and success for their side would include Dawes, Mourie, WJ McBride, Beaumont, Pienaar, Sole and Fouroux. Today, Warburton, McCaw and Dusautoir, in their different ways, are the epitome of a good captain in the media-drenched modern era, a part of the job that shouldn't be overlooked. If I had to pick three for my life, I'd go with Pienaar, McBride and Johnson.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:
Any takers for 10?

Phill Benentt won a Grandslam Captaining at Flyhalf for wales

Stephen Jones Wales a few years back

Jonny Wilkinson England Injured through most of it

Regarding Sevens it seems the vogue to go for a captain at seven. probably because when they are scrabbling round on the flour illegally all game the ref is less likely to send them off.

McCaw, Pocock, Dausitoir, Warburton