Credit where credits due.

ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

I agree theres not many out there to match Pacquiao but its not like Pacquiao beat Berto. Seems like you are giving him credit for a win that wasnt his.

The argument is that was Berto more capabe than Mosely or more deserving of a shot?

Financial element aside I still think Berto was a more credible fight at the time, notwithstanding he lost recently.

OasisBFC wrote:ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

Is Mosley really an easy fight? Or Margarito or Cotto. Manny has always fought the tough fights and continues to do so. If Pacquiao fought Berto it would over in 6 and Berto spending most of the time on the canvas.

When you consider Pacquiao is really a lightweight it pretty amazing what he has achieved.

D4thincarnation wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

Is Mosley really an easy fight? Or Margarito or Cotto. Manny has always fought the tough fights and continues to do so. If Pacquiao fought Berto it would over in 6 and Berto spending most of the time on the canvas.

When you consider Pacquiao is really a lightweight it pretty amazing what he has achieved.

What???!?!

1 minute ago you were telling me how Manny is a natural LWW. (I agree, btw - I reckon he's better at 140). Now he's meant to be at 135?

Neither Cotto nor Margarito were easy fights - but there were better fights to be made.

Just think d4. All that glory that's gone to Ortiz could have been Manny's. Instead Manny fights Mosley - who as we all accept can punch, but hasn't pulled the trigger in 3 of his last 4 - and can't punch anyone who moves. So basically - Manny takes a fight he is expected to win. If he does win, he gets little credit, if he loses his legacy is shattered.

Appalling matchmaking, I'm sure you'd agree.

This reminds me of when Calzaghe chose Jones over Pavlik. When Pavlik lost to Hopkins many argued it vindicated the decision, it didn't, it was a guy choosing the easier option. Can't take credit for someone else doing the job for you. Dorian is finished, just because Berto has lost does not mean Dorian was a better choice.

Thought this article was going to be about Berto/Ortiz?

Not a Manny sodding effing Pacquiao debate again.

Oasis

Is it poss you can edit the article to remove the Pacquiao bit? I mean it's not really necessary, if you want it to disolve into a Pacquiao debate then by all means leave it on there.

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

Is Mosley really an easy fight? Or Margarito or Cotto. Manny has always fought the tough fights and continues to do so. If Pacquiao fought Berto it would over in 6 and Berto spending most of the time on the canvas.

When you consider Pacquiao is really a lightweight it pretty amazing what he has achieved.

What???!?!

1 minute ago you were telling me how Manny is a natural LWW. (I agree, btw - I reckon he's better at 140). Now he's meant to be at 135?

Neither Cotto nor Margarito were easy fights - but there were better fights to be made.

Just think d4. All that glory that's gone to Ortiz could have been Manny's. Instead Manny fights Mosley - who as we all accept can punch, but hasn't pulled the trigger in 3 of his last 4 - and can't punch anyone who moves. So basically - Manny takes a fight he is expected to win. If he does win, he gets little credit, if he loses his legacy is shattered.

Appalling matchmaking, I'm sure you'd agree.

He might get little credit from the casual fans, but those who know boxing know how dangerous this fight is for Manny and it was the toughest fight at welter he could have took.

Why beat a hype job when you could beat the real thing.

Manny could still make lightweight, but would have to miss a meal the night before and breakfast, and maybe a morning run.

rowley wrote:This reminds me of when Calzaghe chose Jones over Pavlik. When Pavlik lost to Hopkins many argued it vindicated the decision, it didn't, it was a guy choosing the easier option. Can't take credit for someone else doing the job for you. Dorian is finished, just because Berto has lost does not mean Dorian was a better choice.

I was one of the few that said Hopkins would beat Pavlik then also.

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

Is Mosley really an easy fight? Or Margarito or Cotto. Manny has always fought the tough fights and continues to do so. If Pacquiao fought Berto it would over in 6 and Berto spending most of the time on the canvas.

When you consider Pacquiao is really a lightweight it pretty amazing what he has achieved.

What???!?!

1 minute ago you were telling me how Manny is a natural LWW. (I agree, btw - I reckon he's better at 140). Now he's meant to be at 135?

Neither Cotto nor Margarito were easy fights - but there were better fights to be made.

Just think d4. All that glory that's gone to Ortiz could have been Manny's. Instead Manny fights Mosley - who as we all accept can punch, but hasn't pulled the trigger in 3 of his last 4 - and can't punch anyone who moves. So basically - Manny takes a fight he is expected to win. If he does win, he gets little credit, if he loses his legacy is shattered.

Appalling matchmaking, I'm sure you'd agree.

He might get little credit from the casual fans, but those who know boxing know how dangerous this fight is for Manny and it was the toughest fight at welter he could have took.

Why beat a hype job when you could beat the real thing.

Manny could still make lightweight, but would have to miss a meal the night before and breakfast, and maybe a morning run.

Guess this forum must be all casual fans then D4 - cos I haven't seen anyone who thinks its a good idea.

Why beat an undefeated world champion when you could beat an old man who gets you little credit.

I'm not going to bother re: Manny's diet. If you know it in that much detail, I'm a little scared.

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:ive been guilty of calling manny - not for being a ducker, but for taking the easy fights. im a huge fan, but picking these fights just for the money when they pose no real live threat isnt something i like.

with marg and mosley spring to mind.

ive also said that berto would be too much for him, a fully active, unbeaten big welter. after seeing ortiz defeat him, it makes me realise even more how good manny really is.

i thought berto would be too much for manny, and ortiz wasnt even on my radar of people capable of beating manny. there really only seems to be mayweather out of the lightweight - light welter - welter - and pretty much all the light middle bar martinez - divisions that could stand a chance of beating him.

when you think of it like that, its outstanding.
and fair play to ortiz, i didnt like the 'no heart' tag. the man is a professional boxer, he has more balls than us lot put together.

Is Mosley really an easy fight? Or Margarito or Cotto. Manny has always fought the tough fights and continues to do so. If Pacquiao fought Berto it would over in 6 and Berto spending most of the time on the canvas.

When you consider Pacquiao is really a lightweight it pretty amazing what he has achieved.

What???!?!

1 minute ago you were telling me how Manny is a natural LWW. (I agree, btw - I reckon he's better at 140). Now he's meant to be at 135?

Neither Cotto nor Margarito were easy fights - but there were better fights to be made.

Just think d4. All that glory that's gone to Ortiz could have been Manny's. Instead Manny fights Mosley - who as we all accept can punch, but hasn't pulled the trigger in 3 of his last 4 - and can't punch anyone who moves. So basically - Manny takes a fight he is expected to win. If he does win, he gets little credit, if he loses his legacy is shattered.

Appalling matchmaking, I'm sure you'd agree.

He might get little credit from the casual fans, but those who know boxing know how dangerous this fight is for Manny and it was the toughest fight at welter he could have took.

Why beat a hype job when you could beat the real thing.

Manny could still make lightweight, but would have to miss a meal the night before and breakfast, and maybe a morning run.

Guess this forum must be all casual fans then D4 - cos I haven't seen anyone who thinks its a good idea.

Why beat an undefeated world champion when you could beat an old man who gets you little credit.

I'm not going to bother re: Manny's diet. If you know it in that much detail, I'm a little scared.

Manny not looking for an untested hype job, he wanted to face the best. Granted Mosley being a free agent and his marketability made this fight more likely but this is the tougher fight for Manny, and I can't really understand why others can't see it?

How do you think a fight with Berto and Manny will go?

I can't really understand why others can't see it?

Because other people aren't contradictory, biased, unobjective idiots like you.

It's called being a boxing fan, something you're not.

coxy0001 wrote:

I can't really understand why others can't see it?

Because other people aren't contradictory, biased, unobjective idiots like you.

It's called being a boxing fan, something you're not.

Maybe if Yahoo did an article about then you would fall in line.

Manny wins. Against a live fighter.

How do you think a fight with Mosley will go?

Manny wins. Against a fighter everyone thinks is dead.

THIS is the crucial point. It doesn't matter HOW good he's been - everyone thinks he's past-it now.

What happens if Manny wins?
No legacy enhancement

What happens if Manny loses?
No legacy at all

Which would be a great shame. I am a huge fan of Manny's as you know; and have defended him against some of the more outrageous slurs thrown against him. But this fight is bad matchmaking.

oxring wrote:Manny wins. Against a live fighter.

How do you think a fight with Mosley will go?

Manny wins. Against a fighter everyone thinks is dead.

THIS is the crucial point. It doesn't matter HOW good he's been - everyone thinks he's past-it now.

What happens if Manny wins?
No legacy enhancement

What happens if Manny loses?
No legacy at all

Which would be a great shame. I am a huge fan of Manny's as you know; and have defended him against some of the more outrageous slurs thrown against him. But this fight is bad matchmaking.

Just prove what a fighter Manny is, he will take the tough fight even though they get him little credit.

oxring wrote:Manny wins. Against a live fighter.

How do you think a fight with Mosley will go?

Manny wins. Against a fighter everyone thinks is dead.

THIS is the crucial point. It doesn't matter HOW good he's been - everyone thinks he's past-it now.

What happens if Manny wins?
No legacy enhancement

What happens if Manny loses?
No legacy at all

Which would be a great shame. I am a huge fan of Manny's as you know; and have defended him against some of the more outrageous slurs thrown against him. But this fight is bad matchmaking.

This is exactly the point. No more needs to be said, lest this thread needs merging, surely?

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:Manny wins. Against a live fighter.

How do you think a fight with Mosley will go?

Manny wins. Against a fighter everyone thinks is dead.

THIS is the crucial point. It doesn't matter HOW good he's been - everyone thinks he's past-it now.

What happens if Manny wins?
No legacy enhancement

What happens if Manny loses?
No legacy at all

Which would be a great shame. I am a huge fan of Manny's as you know; and have defended him against some of the more outrageous slurs thrown against him. But this fight is bad matchmaking.

Just prove what a fighter Manny is, he will take the tough fight even though they get him little credit.

REPLY OF THE CENTURY!!!

Genuinely matey, you've made my day. I didn't think anyone could turn this into a positive so I'm very impressed you managed to.

Suffice to say, I disagree entirely.

Anyway, I'll say no more on the matter, in case I have to merge the debate.

Oxring, what utter garbage. So if Manny loses he has no legacy at all? Do me a favour.

Why are you still debating with this guy? Any credibility he had has been entirely shattered.

Fists of Fury wrote:Oxring, what utter garbage. So if Manny loses he has no legacy at all? Do me a favour.

Don't get drawn into this same old tired debate. For the record, he wouldn't lose his legacy, bit it would certainly mark it down a couple of notches. It's all about losing to a guy you're not expected to.

Fists of Fury wrote:Oxring, what utter garbage. So if Manny loses he has no legacy at all? Do me a favour.

Thank you for noticing hyperbole. I will attend to it in all future posts.

Manny's legacy takes a huge hit if he loses to a 39 year old who's struggled with pace in his last 4 fights. I don't think anyone would argue that?

oxring wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:Oxring, what utter garbage. So if Manny loses he has no legacy at all? Do me a favour.

Thank you for noticing hyperbole. I will attend to it in all future posts.

Manny's legacy takes a huge hit if he loses to a 39 year old who's struggled with pace in his last 4 fights. I don't think anyone would argue that?

And he if he beats Mosley especially by KO it will add to his legacy, for beating a HOF and 3 time world champ.

If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Fists of Fury wrote:If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Yeah, but the counter argument to that is that a great fighter shouldn't be taken out by that big shot.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Yeah, but the counter argument to that is that a great fighter shouldn't be taken out by that big shot.

I guess Hearns ain't a great fighter then.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Yeah, but the counter argument to that is that a great fighter shouldn't be taken out by that big shot.

If it can happen to Lewis or Hearns then the same leeway should be applied for Pacquaio.

The manner of defeat is important. If hes outboxed or beaten up then it will be a big hit to his legacy. If he wins every round but gets caught by a huge shot in the final round then it wont be as disasterous.

Whatever else happens anyway his record below lightweight is intact and even a loss to Mosely at Welterweight would only forward an argument that he was only ever a blown up superfeatherweight anyway.

D4thincarnation wrote: And he if he beats Mosley especially by KO it will add to his legacy, for beating a HOF and 3 time world champ.

Not really. Marciano doesn't get much credit for Louis. Lewis doesn't get much credit for Tyson. Ali doesn't get much credit for Patterson or Moore. See where I'm going here?

Fists of Fury wrote:If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Nope - if he gets KOd then we'll here how he was "always overrated" and "carefully protected". Remember the B-hops and the Vivek Wallace's of this world enjoy stating how he's never fought a "slick African American". The fact that at his weight, there's no slicker than JMM and he's fought him twice seemingly passes them by.

In addition - to get KOd he'd be taking a huge hit in terms of a h2h vs Floyd. Floyd won all but 1 round against Mosley. If Manny wants to be above Floyd in the all time stakes he needs to win by at least as much, if not win better.

Like I said earlier - why take a fight that doesn't help your legacy and looks to all the world to be easy, when you could take another fight against a "live" opponent that you'd have won instead?

(D4, don't worry, you don't have to repeat your answer)

Good responses, guys. Just to echo the above, I believe the manner of defeat is all important. An early KO loss to a big shot, or a KO loss late on after dominating beforehand, shouldn't really ever detract from someones legacy.

oxring wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote: And he if he beats Mosley especially by KO it will add to his legacy, for beating a HOF and 3 time world champ.

Not really. Marciano doesn't get much credit for Louis. Lewis doesn't get much credit for Tyson. Ali doesn't get much credit for Patterson or Moore. See where I'm going here?

Fists of Fury wrote:If he is outboxed then yes, however I'm not so sure a big punch would have too much of an effect in terms of legacy, as we all know this could potentially happen to any fighter.

Nope - if he gets KOd then we'll here how he was "always overrated" and "carefully protected". Remember the B-hops and the Vivek Wallace's of this world enjoy stating how he's never fought a "slick African American". The fact that at his weight, there's no slicker than JMM and he's fought him twice seemingly passes them by.

In addition - to get KOd he'd be taking a huge hit in terms of a h2h vs Floyd. Floyd won all but 1 round against Mosley. If Manny wants to be above Floyd in the all time stakes he needs to win by at least as much, if not win better.

Like I said earlier - why take a fight that doesn't help your legacy and looks to all the world to be easy, when you could take another fight against a "live" opponent that you'd have won instead?

(D4, don't worry, you don't have to repeat your answer)

There might be some hysteria if he were to lose. There always is after a Pacquiao fight.

But when the dust settles on his career the legacy will be there in plain sight. You dont go 5-1-1 against Morales, MAB and Marquez without being great. Add his post superfeather acheivements which are still pretty impressive for a guy that did his best work at SFW and its a pretty stellar legacy regardless of what some people might say.

Manos-were Lewis and Hearns afforded much leeway? Lewis avenged his defeats, which helped him save face, but it's still widely acknowledged that he shouldn't have lost to begin with. Tommy Hearns fought the wrong fight. In that sense, he's not afforded much leeway either. IF he'd been better, he wouldn't have lost. Difference is, Hagler is a bit different to a faded Mosley. I'm not old enough to know what the contemporary opinion was on that fight, but Pacquiao is roundly expected to beat Mosley. Now, if Pacquiao were to lose to Mayweather, then that wouldn't have such an impact on his legacy.

Wasn't he talking about the Barkley loss for Hearns rather than Hagler?

BALTIMORA wrote:Manos-were Lewis and Hearns afforded much leeway? Lewis avenged his defeats, which helped him save face, but it's still widely acknowledged that he shouldn't have lost to begin with. Tommy Hearns fought the wrong fight. In that sense, he's not afforded much leeway either. IF he'd been better, he wouldn't have lost. Difference is, Hagler is a bit different to a faded Mosley. I'm not old enough to know what the contemporary opinion was on that fight, but Pacquiao is roundly expected to beat Mosley. Now, if Pacquiao were to lose to Mayweather, then that wouldn't have such an impact on his legacy.

Well they both have legacies and are both considered greats. Ive seen Lewis ranked as high as 4 in terms of ATG heavies and he usually clocks in between 5-10.

Hearns lost by KO to Barkley and by decision on top of being beaten knocked out by Hagler and Leonard. I still see him regularly rated as a top Welter and hes still regarded as a legend.

Nobody would argue Pacquiaos legacy wouldnt take a hit but its definately not going to be a legacy destroying one. Especially for a guy that did his best work as a superfeatherweight and has plenty of great wins to support his claims.

Just realised we've all gotten sidetracked again. Congratulations to Ortiz for taking Berto's cherry. No excuses, no ifs or buts. Berto was unbeaten, and is young, with Ortiz the one being made to move up. No catchweights, just a good solid win.

Enjoyed it immensely - great fight.

Ortiz should tighten his defence up a touch and try to keep fighting similar standard opposition - if he drops his competition it increases the chances of him getting careless.

He was a monster come fight-night - 161 at welterweight?!

One thing about Manny's recent fights is that because of his dominance people tend to downgrade their opinion of his opponents after the fight. But if you think about it there were a great many people (and sometimes more people) picking ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto before those fights took place (much fewer people picking Margarito, Clottey, or Mosely however).

The problem about putting Manny's weight jumping run from SFW up to LMW into perspective is that there's a credible argument either way for being positive or negative. Think about it:-

David Diaz:

Pros - He jumped up to the next weight division to take on a legit beltholder (always impressive). he destroyed a usually durable fighter.

Cons – Diaz was limited and Manny didn’t stick around at LW to prove his dominance

Oscar de la Hoya:

Pros – Jumps another 2 weight divisions (pretty amazing) and takes on a much bigger man. Plus ODLH was a legend who no one was saying was totally shot before the fight. ODLH was the favourite for this.

Cons – Fight was made at 147 and Oscar was clearly weight drained and looked as weak as a kitten. It really seemed to be one of those bouts where a fighter becomes ‘shot’ on the night – perfect timing for Manny.

Ricky Hatton:

Pros – He fights bone-fide LWW whilst only being 2 fights removed from SFW. Hatton has only been beaten by FMJ and looked decent against Malignaggi. Lot’s of people saying that Hatton was too strong – it’s not really all that fair to look back now and say that Hatton was limited – that was not the consensus then (as it is now). He annihilates him with a KO of the year.

Cons – Hatton had already been outclassed by FMJ (Manny’s emergent rival) and may have lost the type of confidence that comes with being undefeated.

Miguel Cotto:

Pros - For me it was every bit as tough a fight as Mosely was (the alternative fight at the time). A great many people saw Cotto as a huge challenge, and a good few had him picked to win. Manny was still not really settled at the weight. He destroyed Cotto, put him down, and stopped him.

Cons – Cotto was not long over a confidence shattering beating at the (possibly plaster wrapped) hands of Margarito. This was the type of beating that can really take something from a fighter – I should say though that this hasn’t been proved conclusively as he’s since looked decent in stopping Yuri Foreman and Ricardo Mayorga. Not a huge deal because Cotto was formally a 140 fighter, but it was annoying that Manny’s team insisted on having the fight at 145 rather than the actual WW limit. If you’re going to take on the challenge of jumping weight then you should do it at the actual weight classification rather than seeking small advantages.

Joshua Clottey:

Pros – A big, strong WW who had pushed Cotto close and proved himself a capable fighter. Being fair, most people before the fight were agreed that this was a decent match to make (even if it was widely agreed that Manny would win) – especially given that Manny’s first round of negotiations with FMJ had broken down at short notice and there weren’t too many others around to fight. Manny dominated again.

Cons – Clottey was never that great. The match, while ok, was highly disappointing in comparison to the FMJ potential matchup. Clottey fought in a ridiculously negative manner. Manny could’ve fought a resurgent Mosely a few times around this period, but by his trainers own admission he considered Mosely a bit too big/too good to risk when there were other fights to take – although to be fair Mosely was down to fight Berto at the time and Floyd took that fight on short notice once Berto pulled out.

Antonio Margarito:

Pros – Another jump in weight to go up against a vastly bigger man. Margarito is super-tough and can punch. Manny wiped the floor with him and could’ve stopped him.

Cons – Margarito did not deserve the fight on account of being a reckless cheat. Margarito is tailor made for Manny – he was always a crude (if formidable fighter). Margarito had looked pretty ordinary in his comeback fights prior to Manny. Margarito had been given a confidence shattering beating from Mosely and had had a massive layoff from top level boxing. Most people expected Manny to win this one. Manny got a 154 title, but had again insisted on a catchweight of 150. Again, this is annoying, but I’m not sure it’s a big deal in terms of weight draining as Margarito had just moved up to 154.

Shane Mosely:

Pros – Mosely can fight and he can punch. There weren’t too many viable alternatives in light of the 2nd FMJ negotiations breaking down.

Cons – Mosely had just had a comprehensive beating from FMJ (that’s four fighters now – Hatton, Cotto, Margarito, Mosely - a pattern emerging here). Mosely had looked terrible in the Mora fight. He is showing serious signs of age and is beginning to look shot. Almost no one has Mosely winning this.

Overall when you add Manny’s wins over the cream of the crop from the lighter weights (Barrera, Morales, Marquez, etc) to this run up the weights then you’ve got to admit that it’s an impressive resume. But it is clear that this resume has to have an asterisk or two. I can see the arguments for and against Manny’s record – and I think that’s the reason why there is so much argument and contention about him (added to the side taking mentality that seems to be fostered by the fact that him and FMJ are a) in the same weight class, b) completely different in attitude and fighting style - you pick one then you generally dislike the other).

Next for Manny needs to be a live opponent, who’s not coming off of a recent beating, at an acceptable weight class. There’s not that many options, and given Berto’s recent defeat at the hands of Ortiz you can see that a lot of the promising younger guys aren’t quite ready to be a challenge (i.e. you wouldn’t put Ortiz in with Manny yet). I’d be happy with:

Marquez @ 140

Williams @ 147 (who is coming off a beating but is so big that it’d be a huge challenge for Manny)

Martinez @ 154 (doubt this will ever happen and I don’t blame Manny for not taking it – Manny is a 140 fighter who can push to 147, Martinez can barely make 154 anymore. He'd be an utter legend for taking and winning this fight)

Bradley @ 140/147 (if Bradley beats Khan, Maidana, or Ortiz in his next fight)

Mayweather @ 147

We have to remember that Pacquiao has competed in nearly 60 fights now. He's not some sort of work horse to be plodded through endless big match contests. Margarito and Cotto were tough fights, its more of a chill down fight with Mosely. Not disrespect to Mosely intended, he still has some capabilities, I doubt Manny or Roach will take any fight lightly. But, its pretty a much a crowd pleaser, a retirement fight. There could be one more fight left, perhaps a big one I don't know. But, Pacquiao is not a spring chicken anymore, no more trilogies.

A few months ago, just as many people didn't favour a match with Berto as were behind any option. Roach and Pacquiao have their own views and timescales, they may fancy different opponents out there. My take on it is that Pacquiao would like at least one more big fight, perhaps more. He's been at his career peak recently, is enjoying his boxing and wants to continue. But, i get the impression Roach would rather call it a day after Mosely. He's older and wiser, he may well be more cautious because of his condition.

Mosely is a marquee fighter, experienced welter - not a bad defence. Its not supposed to be a career defining fight, more of a standard defence. Some fighters have success continuing at a high level into their twilight years. But, is it really worth it? It may be time for Pacquiao to quit while he's ahead.

Boxtthis wrote:One thing about Manny's recent fights is that because of his dominance people tend to downgrade their opinion of his opponents after the fight. But if you think about it there were a great many people (and sometimes more people) picking ODLH, Hatton, and Cotto before those fights took place (much fewer people picking Margarito, Clottey, or Mosely however).

The problem about putting Manny's weight jumping run from SFW up to LMW into perspective is that there's a credible argument either way for being positive or negative. Think about it:-

David Diaz:

Pros - He jumped up to the next weight division to take on a legit beltholder (always impressive). he destroyed a usually durable fighter.

Cons – Diaz was limited and Manny didn’t stick around at LW to prove his dominance

Oscar de la Hoya:

Pros – Jumps another 2 weight divisions (pretty amazing) and takes on a much bigger man. Plus ODLH was a legend who no one was saying was totally shot before the fight. ODLH was the favourite for this.

Cons – Fight was made at 147 and Oscar was clearly weight drained and looked as weak as a kitten. It really seemed to be one of those bouts where a fighter becomes ‘shot’ on the night – perfect timing for Manny.

Ricky Hatton:

Pros – He fights bone-fide LWW whilst only being 2 fights removed from SFW. Hatton has only been beaten by FMJ and looked decent against Malignaggi. Lot’s of people saying that Hatton was too strong – it’s not really all that fair to look back now and say that Hatton was limited – that was not the consensus then (as it is now). He annihilates him with a KO of the year.

Cons – Hatton had already been outclassed by FMJ (Manny’s emergent rival) and may have lost the type of confidence that comes with being undefeated.

Miguel Cotto:

Pros - For me it was every bit as tough a fight as Mosely was (the alternative fight at the time). A great many people saw Cotto as a huge challenge, and a good few had him picked to win. Manny was still not really settled at the weight. He destroyed Cotto, put him down, and stopped him.

Cons – Cotto was not long over a confidence shattering beating at the (possibly plaster wrapped) hands of Margarito. This was the type of beating that can really take something from a fighter – I should say though that this hasn’t been proved conclusively as he’s since looked decent in stopping Yuri Foreman and Ricardo Mayorga. Not a huge deal because Cotto was formally a 140 fighter, but it was annoying that Manny’s team insisted on having the fight at 145 rather than the actual WW limit. If you’re going to take on the challenge of jumping weight then you should do it at the actual weight classification rather than seeking small advantages.

Joshua Clottey:

Pros – A big, strong WW who had pushed Cotto close and proved himself a capable fighter. Being fair, most people before the fight were agreed that this was a decent match to make (even if it was widely agreed that Manny would win) – especially given that Manny’s first round of negotiations with FMJ had broken down at short notice and there weren’t too many others around to fight. Manny dominated again.

Cons – Clottey was never that great. The match, while ok, was highly disappointing in comparison to the FMJ potential matchup. Clottey fought in a ridiculously negative manner. Manny could’ve fought a resurgent Mosely a few times around this period, but by his trainers own admission he considered Mosely a bit too big/too good to risk when there were other fights to take – although to be fair Mosely was down to fight Berto at the time and Floyd took that fight on short notice once Berto pulled out.

Antonio Margarito:

Pros – Another jump in weight to go up against a vastly bigger man. Margarito is super-tough and can punch. Manny wiped the floor with him and could’ve stopped him.

Cons – Margarito did not deserve the fight on account of being a reckless cheat. Margarito is tailor made for Manny – he was always a crude (if formidable fighter). Margarito had looked pretty ordinary in his comeback fights prior to Manny. Margarito had been given a confidence shattering beating from Mosely and had had a massive layoff from top level boxing. Most people expected Manny to win this one. Manny got a 154 title, but had again insisted on a catchweight of 150. Again, this is annoying, but I’m not sure it’s a big deal in terms of weight draining as Margarito had just moved up to 154.

Shane Mosely:

Pros – Mosely can fight and he can punch. There weren’t too many viable alternatives in light of the 2nd FMJ negotiations breaking down.

Cons – Mosely had just had a comprehensive beating from FMJ (that’s four fighters now – Hatton, Cotto, Margarito, Mosely - a pattern emerging here). Mosely had looked terrible in the Mora fight. He is showing serious signs of age and is beginning to look shot. Almost no one has Mosely winning this.

Overall when you add Manny’s wins over the cream of the crop from the lighter weights (Barrera, Morales, Marquez, etc) to this run up the weights then you’ve got to admit that it’s an impressive resume. But it is clear that this resume has to have an asterisk or two. I can see the arguments for and against Manny’s record – and I think that’s the reason why there is so much argument and contention about him (added to the side taking mentality that seems to be fostered by the fact that him and FMJ are a) in the same weight class, b) completely different in attitude and fighting style - you pick one then you generally dislike the other).

Next for Manny needs to be a live opponent, who’s not coming off of a recent beating, at an acceptable weight class. There’s not that many options, and given Berto’s recent defeat at the hands of Ortiz you can see that a lot of the promising younger guys aren’t quite ready to be a challenge (i.e. you wouldn’t put Ortiz in with Manny yet). I’d be happy with:

Marquez @ 140

Williams @ 147 (who is coming off a beating but is so big that it’d be a huge challenge for Manny)

Martinez @ 154 (doubt this will ever happen and I don’t blame Manny for not taking it – Manny is a 140 fighter who can push to 147, Martinez can barely make 154 anymore. He'd be an utter legend for taking and winning this fight)

Bradley @ 140/147 (if Bradley beats Khan, Maidana, or Ortiz in his next fight)

Mayweather @ 147

Great great post.

I tend to side with the Pros above.

Its easy to say afterwards that "you knew" someone was rubbish. If you didn't pick it on fight night - give some respect!

TRUSSMAN66 picked Hatton to win TKO8 in dominant fashion. Were Trussy to then say he didn't rate the Hatton win, [I haven't seen him do this, I mentioned his name because I remembered his prediction] it would be an unfair detraction from a brilliant win.

I think Manny has a great resume. I also feel that a Berto win would have added more than a faded Mosley.

A final fight against Martinez at 154 would be incredible - but I don't think he can do it. He's great, but he's not superman. He fought effectively at 147 against Margarito and Martinez' power is huge - he's a BIG hitting LMW.

ArchBritishchris wrote:We have to remember that Pacquiao has competed in nearly 60 fights now. He's not some sort of work horse to be plodded through endless big match contests. Margarito and Cotto were tough fights, its more of a chill down fight with Mosely. Not disrespect to Mosely intended, he still has some capabilities, I doubt Manny or Roach will take any fight lightly. But, its pretty a much a crowd pleaser, a retirement fight. There could be one more fight left, perhaps a big one I don't know. But, Pacquiao is not a spring chicken anymore, no more trilogies.

A few months ago, just as many people didn't favour a match with Berto as were behind any option. Roach and Pacquiao have their own views and timescales, they may fancy different opponents out there. My take on it is that Pacquiao would like at least one more big fight, perhaps more. He's been at his career peak recently, is enjoying his boxing and wants to continue. But, i get the impression Roach would rather call it a day after Mosely. He's older and wiser, he may well be more cautious because of his condition.

Mosely is a marquee fighter, experienced welter - not a bad defence. Its not supposed to be a career defining fight, more of a standard defence. Some fighters have success continuing at a high level into their twilight years. But, is it really worth it? It may be time for Pacquiao to quit while he's ahead.

ive been reading that after khan/bradley (assuming he wins), that he is going to step up a weight and fight with pac man at 147- could this be the big money retirement fight he's been after but cant seem to arrange? it would definetly sell lots of PPV

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,12040_6882946,00.html

Khan wouldn't be "ready" for Pacquiao. Manny would tear him apart. Manny punches harder, without headgear and pulling punches its hard to see how Khan wins.

And who will be training him for this? Roach won't. Ariza's already gone from his camp.

I can see a final fight with Bradley for Manny. That would be legacy enhancing.

oxring wrote:Khan wouldn't be "ready" for Pacquiao. Manny would tear him apart. Manny punches harder, without headgear and pulling punches its hard to see how Khan wins.

And who will be training him for this? Roach won't. Ariza's already gone from his camp.

I can see a final fight with Bradley for Manny. That would be legacy enhancing.

Bradley would need to beat Khan, then they could really build that fight up.

Imagine it, Bradley nutts Khan out in two round leaving him a bloody mess collapsed on the canvas in Manny's arms. And Manny just stares back at him.

Then announce his come back after saying he was retired after the Mosley fight and will fight Bradley in Palm Springs California on December 25th for no money, saying it not about the money, Bob Arum immediately has a heart attack.

Manny goes training it the mountains of Big Bear where he could heard yelling BRADLEY!!!! BRADLEY!!!!

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:Khan wouldn't be "ready" for Pacquiao. Manny would tear him apart. Manny punches harder, without headgear and pulling punches its hard to see how Khan wins.

And who will be training him for this? Roach won't. Ariza's already gone from his camp.

I can see a final fight with Bradley for Manny. That would be legacy enhancing.

Bradley would need to beat Khan, then they could really build that fight up.

Imagine it, Bradley nutts Khan out in two round leaving him a bloody mess collapsed on the canvas in Manny's arms. And Manny just stares back at him.

Then announce his come back after saying he was retired after the Mosley fight and will fight Bradley in Palm Springs California on December 25th for no money, saying it not about the money, Bob Arum immediately has a heart attack.

Manny goes training it the mountains of Big Bear where he could heard yelling BRADLEY!!!! BRADLEY!!!!

Lets dig up James Brown for Bradley's ring entrance and have survivor there for Manny's.

Love it.

D4thincarnation wrote: Bradley would need to beat Khan, then they could really build that fight up.

Imagine it, Bradley nutts Khan out in two round leaving him a bloody mess collapsed on the canvas in Manny's arms. And Manny just stares back at him.

Then announce his come back after saying he was retired after the Mosley fight and will fight Bradley in Palm Springs California on December 25th for no money, saying it not about the money, Bob Arum immediately has a heart attack.

Manny goes training it the mountains of Big Bear where he could heard yelling BRADLEY!!!! BRADLEY!!!!

Tremendous.