John Terry banned for 4 games

First topic message reminder :

Per SSN

Also a fairly hefty fine (comparatively)

Today, the FA have released their 63 page report of the incident. Ashley Cole has just tweeted: "Hahahahaa, well done #fa I lied did I, #BUNCHOFTWATS"

Duty281 wrote:Today, the FA have released their 63 page report of the incident. Ashley Cole has just tweeted: "Hahahahaa, well done #fa I lied did I, #BUNCHOFTWATS"

A considered and rational opinion from Mr. Cole there.

So much for Ashley's England career then

GSC wrote:So much for Ashley's England career then

That's one thing I've been worrying about, will Ashley retire from internationals to spite the FA? If he does, it's a real hammer blow for England - he's the best left-back in the World and whilst we have depth there (Baines, Bertrand and Gibbs) he would be a massive loss if he retired.

Confectionary Cole should be done for perjury.

Lol what a muppet cole is.

Don't see how Cole can return from this. I get hes angry, but this is just sheer stupidity.

GSC wrote:So much for Ashley's England career then

I believe Ashley would have retired long ago if not for financial reasons. The FA just wasted the time of the court of law, probably under pressure by the black players or someone with agendas (QPR).

Then again, I didn't exactly expect much from the guy who cheated on cheryl cole with a mong hairdresser

Cheryl's little more than a hairdresser that got lucky though in fairness.

Cheryl is a complete chav, she's 10 a penny, only difference is she's loaded

Kay Fabe wrote:Cheryl is a complete chav, she's 10 a penny, only difference is she's loaded

And yet, you'd still bang it?

Oh dear Oh Dear!!

When will our footballers learn....what a complete tool Mr Cole continues to be. Were it not for the fact he isn't 'employed' by the FA I would say sack him!...Great player but wouldn't be too sad to see him never pull on the shirt again.

If I was found saying that about my employees I no doubt would be told to clear my desk in no uncertain terms...I hope the FA hand out a severe punishment for what was not just an oversight but a gross error of judgement with no defence by Cole.

You can catch my full view on the whole thing via my blog, address is below:

http://aviewfrommyarmchair.wordpress.com/2012/10/05/end-of-the-line-for-ashley-cole/

Hero wrote:Cheryl's little more than a hairdresser that got lucky though in fairness.

I blame Pete Waterman.

Beer wrote:

Kay Fabe wrote:Cheryl is a complete chav, she's 10 a penny, only difference is she's loaded

And yet, you'd still bang it?

Yes!!!! Yes I would

Im unaware of which part of "The FA are a bunch of tw**s" is inaccurate??

Went easy on them IMO....................and he shouldn't have apologised either............the FA have behaved disgracefully and dishonestly IMO

John Cregan wrote:Im unaware of which part of "The FA are a bunch of tw**s" is inaccurate??

Went easy on them IMO....................and he shouldn't have apologised either............the FA have behaved disgracefully and dishonestly IMO

A novel attitude, how have the fa acted dishonestly?

It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............

Did they?
Did you read the report, they have a different standard for 'burden of proof' compared to the court.

John Cregan wrote:
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................

Did they? Does that make him not guilty?
Even Howard Riddle, the court magistrate, said, and I quote exactly,

Mr Terry’s explanation is, certainly under the cold light of forensic
examination, inherently unlikely. It is not the most obvious response. It is
sandwiched between other undoubted insults.

It is very unlikely that he (Anton Ferdinand) should firstly accuse John Terry of calling him a black c**t, then shortly after the match completely deny that he had made such a comment, and then maintain that false
account throughout the police investigation and throughout this trial.

Terry was proclaimed not guilty in court, because there was a very very slight possibility that: JT accidentally thought that AF asked JT whether he call him a Black C*nt. (the court concluded AF did not actually think JT had said it, or he would have spoken about that claim.). JT called AF a f*cking knobhead (which he admits he did), and then suddenly 5 seconds later asks him whether AF has accused him of calling him a black c*nt.
It was also revealed in the 63 page report, dunno if you have read it, that Ashley Cole was asked to change his 'witness statement' twice to benefit John Terry (so it was relatively clear that was his agenda).

John Cregan wrote:
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

JT himself has admitted to saying the words after he was caught on camera. A.Cole was also not actually a witness during the incident, he was only involved afterwards.
He was not actually directly called a liar in the report, but it was observed that he changed his statement twice to suit JT.

John Cregan wrote:
The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish,

Interesting observation.
Remember the magistrate himself concluded that JT's case was 'inherently unlikely.'
The tribunal work on a balance of probabilities, they are not the court of law...

John Cregan wrote:
Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

What case does Cole have?
Terry should remain silent, or apologise.

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Ashley is a liar. The courts called into doubt his evidence. They also called into doubt Terry's evidence. But it could not be proven 100% as required in law courts. The F's decision is on the balance of probability. On the balance of things they didn't believe Terry or Confectionery Cole. Ice Ice Coley is a liar. You saw on TV what Terry said. Do you seriously believe he was asking a question? Be honest.

Interestingly though, other than Ice Cole, no other black Chelsea player came out in support of Terry either in writing or words.

Justice at last. The guy is a racist. Only a racist would use those words. And only a racist would believe him and his statement (or a coconut).

I hope Confectionery takes it further. Terry has nothing to apologise for. He was being true to himself.

Having watched this clip, I can say, in my opinion, there's 0.1% chance that Terry was asking a question.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0z_Y2dk-aQ

To make it clear, at the start JT is calling AF a f*cking knobhead (which he admits), then Cole blocks the camera. Then JT says the words 'f*cking black c*nt.'
We are meant to believe in the moment Cole blocked the camera's view from JT, Terry said the words 'did you call me?'

Total nonsense.

Terry is a liar. A proven liar also. Lied after being sent off against Barca and only told the truth when tv camera replays showed exactly what he did. He is a lying c***.

IMBL,

The lack of any witnesses is the problem..............while Terry's explanation is perhaps unlikely, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt..................as for the "lower" burden of proof, i think for a charge as serious as this, "beyond reasonable doubt" should be the FA's standard as well...............they make up the rules to suit their "high moral ground" "PC" agenda.......................

If Terry did say what he said as an insult, i don't believe it to be racist either................i believe it to be vile and disgusting and worthy of a 4 match ban, plus another 4 for being a liar, BUT he hasn't got the benefit of the doubt here and is now stigmatised as a racist..............

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

GSC wrote:So much for Ashley's England career then

I believe Ashley would have retired long ago if not for financial reasons. The FA just wasted the time of the court of law, probably under pressure by the black players or someone with agendas (QPR).

How did the FA waste the time of the court of law? I thought the courts decided to charge Terry on their own.

John Cregan wrote:IMBL,

If Terry did say what he said as an insult, i don't believe it to be racist either................i believe it to be vile and disgusting and worthy of a 4 match ban, plus another 4 for being a liar, BUT he hasn't got the benefit of the doubt here and is now stigmatised as a racist..............

There's one born every minute. 4 games is 10 too less. Respect in football? The comedy writes itself.

It is a racial insult, that there is no doubt, whether that makes him a racist or not though is another matter.

While I'd never condone using anyone race to insult them for me tht doesn't automatically make someone a racist

Kay Fabe wrote:It is a racial insult, that there is no doubt, whether that makes him a racist or not though is another matter.

While I'd never condone using anyone race to insult them for me tht doesn't automatically make someone a racist

It does to be fair as he is discriminating on the grounds of race - irrespetive of how he behaves in private.

Another point, whilst not legally binding, a few law colleagues of mind fine it baffling g he wasn't found guilty in his criminal trial, likening his excuse to a drug dealer saying he found the drugs he was in possession of.

azania wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Ashley is a liar. The courts called into doubt his evidence. They also called into doubt Terry's evidence. But it could not be proven 100% as required in law courts. The F's decision is on the balance of probability. On the balance of things they didn't believe Terry or Confectionery Cole. Ice Ice Coley is a liar. You saw on TV what Terry said. Do you seriously believe he was asking a question? Be honest.

Interestingly though, other than Ice Cole, no other black Chelsea player came out in support of Terry either in writing or words.

Justice at last. The guy is a racist. Only a racist would use those words. And only a racist would believe him and his statement (or a coconut).

I hope Confectionery takes it further. Terry has nothing to apologise for. He was being true to himself.

And by calling Cole a chocice, you're racist as well. Hypocrisy much?

We've already been down this route Duty, he isn't worth the time it takes to type a response

John Cregan wrote:IMBL,

The lack of any witnesses is the problem..............

Not really. He has admitted saying the words, and been caught by camera.

John Cregan wrote:
while Terry's explanation is perhaps unlikely, he is entitled to the benefit of the doubt..................

Are you being serious?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0z_Y2dk-aQ

To make it clear, at the start JT is calling AF a f*cking knobhead (which he admits), then Cole blocks the camera. Then JT says the words 'f*cking black c*nt.'
We are meant to believe in the moment Cole blocked the camera's view from JT, Terry said the words 'did you call me?'

Total and absolute nonsense.

John Cregan wrote:
as for the "lower" burden of proof, i think for a charge as serious as this, "beyond reasonable doubt" should be the FA's standard as well...............they make up the rules to suit their "high moral ground" "PC" agenda.......................

You clearly haven't read the report. It explains this in great detail.
Firstly it has it's own burden of proof, and looking at the evidence here I think 99% of people will agree it's pretty clear cut that JT is trying to cover himself up. Secondly what rule did the FA make up? If you read the report it's clear the rules was in place already.

I think people are forgetting that being a footballer is not a normal job. They can and have gotten away with far worse than the general public ever could. That's down to the fact the performance of the team is the highest priority for every club. Sacking Terry or even just stripping him of the captaincy would no doubt have a negative impact on Chelsea's performances. It's the same reason Suarez wasn't sacked by Liverpool and the same reason Gerrard remained Liverpool captain after he was accused of assault.

This whole ordeal has gotten just so messy, Suarez, i guess was made an example of, the FA should stick with the example and not change it, give him the same amount of games banned as Suarez and move on.

Duty281 wrote:

azania wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Ashley is a liar. The courts called into doubt his evidence. They also called into doubt Terry's evidence. But it could not be proven 100% as required in law courts. The F's decision is on the balance of probability. On the balance of things they didn't believe Terry or Confectionery Cole. Ice Ice Coley is a liar. You saw on TV what Terry said. Do you seriously believe he was asking a question? Be honest.

Interestingly though, other than Ice Cole, no other black Chelsea player came out in support of Terry either in writing or words.

Justice at last. The guy is a racist. Only a racist would use those words. And only a racist would believe him and his statement (or a coconut).

I hope Confectionery takes it further. Terry has nothing to apologise for. He was being true to himself.

And by calling Cole a chocice, you're racist as well. Hypocrisy much?

Is coconut better? Please explain why calling Cole a choc ice is racist.

Kay Fabe wrote:It is a racial insult, that there is no doubt, whether that makes him a racist or not though is another matter.

While I'd never condone using anyone race to insult them for me tht doesn't automatically make someone a racist

Why would a non racist use a nasty racist insult? Using a racist insult means you are a racist. By definition.

Az, you've been warned about using terms such as choc ice, and other terms which mean the same thing. People find them offensive and I don't care whether in your "culture" or "community" they are acceptable terms, on this board they are not.

The next time I see you post using a term or one similar, you're getting an instant ban, no warnings. You've had enough warnings.

Crimey wrote:Az, you've been warned about using terms such as choc ice, and other terms which mean the same thing. People find them offensive and I don't care whether in your "culture" or "community" they are acceptable terms, on this board they are not.

The next time I see you post using a term or one similar, you're getting an instant ban, no warnings. You've had enough warnings.

Apologies. It was used in the post I responded to so I assumed it was ok to use it. Why do I feel that I am being singled out here?

azania wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

azania wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Ashley is a liar. The courts called into doubt his evidence. They also called into doubt Terry's evidence. But it could not be proven 100% as required in law courts. The F's decision is on the balance of probability. On the balance of things they didn't believe Terry or Confectionery Cole. Ice Ice Coley is a liar. You saw on TV what Terry said. Do you seriously believe he was asking a question? Be honest.

Interestingly though, other than Ice Cole, no other black Chelsea player came out in support of Terry either in writing or words.

Justice at last. The guy is a racist. Only a racist would use those words. And only a racist would believe him and his statement (or a coconut).

I hope Confectionery takes it further. Terry has nothing to apologise for. He was being true to himself.

And by calling Cole a chocice, you're racist as well. Hypocrisy much?

Is coconut better? Please explain why calling Cole a choc ice is racist.

Dictionary definition of racist:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

By calling Ashley Cole a 'chocice', you believe he's black on the outside but white on the inside, i.e that white people are different to black people in human character.

azania wrote:

Crimey wrote:Az, you've been warned about using terms such as choc ice, and other terms which mean the same thing. People find them offensive and I don't care whether in your "culture" or "community" they are acceptable terms, on this board they are not.

The next time I see you post using a term or one similar, you're getting an instant ban, no warnings. You've had enough warnings.

Apologies. It was used in the post I responded to so I assumed it was ok to use it. Why do I feel that I am being singled out here?

Because other people haven't been warned in the past for using the term.

Crimey wrote:

azania wrote:

Crimey wrote:Az, you've been warned about using terms such as choc ice, and other terms which mean the same thing. People find them offensive and I don't care whether in your "culture" or "community" they are acceptable terms, on this board they are not.

The next time I see you post using a term or one similar, you're getting an instant ban, no warnings. You've had enough warnings.

Apologies. It was used in the post I responded to so I assumed it was ok to use it. Why do I feel that I am being singled out here?

Because other people haven't been warned in the past for using the term.

Nice one. Glad to know 'm keeping you guys on your toes. Well it seems I'm soon to be banned then.

Duty281 wrote:

azania wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

azania wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Ashley is a liar. The courts called into doubt his evidence. They also called into doubt Terry's evidence. But it could not be proven 100% as required in law courts. The F's decision is on the balance of probability. On the balance of things they didn't believe Terry or Confectionery Cole. Ice Ice Coley is a liar. You saw on TV what Terry said. Do you seriously believe he was asking a question? Be honest.

Interestingly though, other than Ice Cole, no other black Chelsea player came out in support of Terry either in writing or words.

Justice at last. The guy is a racist. Only a racist would use those words. And only a racist would believe him and his statement (or a coconut).

I hope Confectionery takes it further. Terry has nothing to apologise for. He was being true to himself.

And by calling Cole a chocice, you're racist as well. Hypocrisy much?

Is coconut better? Please explain why calling Cole a choc ice is racist.

Dictionary definition of racist:

The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

By calling Ashley Cole a 'chocice', you believe he's black on the outside but white on the inside, i.e that white people are different to black people in human character.

Good thing the dictionary definition doesn't apply to me or anything I have said.....even if the FA were doing an inquiry.

White people are different to black people in character? Good heavens You're making things up as you go along. Yeah, I can get a little uppity and probably don't know my place as you would probably want me to. But different in human character? Nah. Not me mate. Try not to guess what I believe in mate. You don't understand subject matter and I certainly will not incur the wrath of the mods trying to explain the complexities to you.

The "confectionery" term simply means fake. Not difference in human characteristics and one being superior/inferior to another. Imagine a posh boy speaking estuary English to fit in. That boy is being a fake. Same principle matey.

Now toodle pip.

Anyway, a 4 match ban is a joke and shows the FA do not take the respect campaign seriously. Terry used those words. He acknowledged using them. He lied when he said he was asking a question. See the youtube video and tell me in all seriousness that you believe him. As for Cashley. Well, he's simply a liar. A black man lying in a case of this nature is....well...not good.

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Christ almighty, are we going to have to go through the whole criminal v civil court differences again??!

Is there a function on here to draw pictures with crayons? Maybe that might help explain it better.....

azania wrote:Terry is a liar. A proven liar also. Lied after being sent off against Barca and only told the truth when tv camera replays showed exactly what he did. He is a lying c***.

That specifically came back to haunt him in this case, the FA report stated that previous instances of lying (this being cited) undermined Terry's credibility as a witness.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Christ almighty, are we going to have to go through the whole criminal v civil court differences again??!

Is there a function on here to draw pictures with crayons? Maybe that might help explain it better.....

The "criminal v civil " distinction AGAIN!! I know all about it, no need for the crayons, less of the condescending attitude please............REGARDLESS, the FA independent panel came up with a completely opposite (and biased) view to the Magistrate Court and this has NOTHING to do with the "criminal v civil" distinction.

Terry has now decided NOT to appeal and this can mean 1 of 2 things IMO:

(1) He has been lying all the way through this..........a probable explanation
(2) The Club have warned him to drop it.........we dont care if you believe you are innocent, we want this to END NOW.

Ideas anyone??

The FA can extend the ban if he appeals and is unsuccessful cant they?
If that is the case then maybe the club wanted it dropped.
It would go on a long time but the FA wouldnt want to back down now I would have thought.
Maybe Chelsea thought that the appeal would ultimately be unsuccessful anyway so just bite the bullet and get the ban done?

FA cop out yet again.

Except Suarez admitted to using such vocabulary that would point to Evra's skin tone, Terry rejected that he said anything about Anton's colour. This subject should be in the bin by now as it is going in circles with the same conclusion. Also I believe Terry didn't refuse Anton's hand like Suarez did, nevermind though.

John Cregan wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

John Cregan wrote:It's an astonishing 2 fingers to the Magistrate Court decision.............
They had decided on Terry's guilt immediately followinging the game....................
They built a case with Zero witnesses..............well one actually, ashley Cole who gave his evidence and they have called him a liar................

The FA's decision is a complete load of rubbish, but of course completely understandable given their actions ever since it happened................

Ashley Cole definately has a case if he wants to take it further..........Terry's silence is baffling...................

Christ almighty, are we going to have to go through the whole criminal v civil court differences again??!

Is there a function on here to draw pictures with crayons? Maybe that might help explain it better.....

The "criminal v civil " distinction AGAIN!! I know all about it, no need for the crayons, less of the condescending attitude please............REGARDLESS, the FA independent panel came up with a completely opposite (and biased) view to the Magistrate Court and this has NOTHING to do with the "criminal v civil" distinction.

Terry has now decided NOT to appeal and this can mean 1 of 2 things IMO:

(1) He has been lying all the way through this..........a probable explanation
(2) The Club have warned him to drop it.........we dont care if you believe you are innocent, we want this to END NOW.

Ideas anyone??

Donut

Pretty sure it's on this thread already where someone has spelt out to you with crayon-esque clarity that the magistrate thought JT was full of BS and didn't believe his or Cole's testimony for a minute. HOWEVER because it was CRIMINAL NOT CIVIL COURT the BURDEN OF PROOF was much higher - the judge basically came to the same conclusions as the FA, the difference being this wasn't BEYOND ALL REASONABLE DOUBT therefore JT got off on the ciminal charge but on the civil charge where only an ON BALANCE OF PROBABILITY burden is required, the same conclusions allowed them to arrive at a guilty verdict.

Top Hat,
Firstly, Why the personal insults???

The magistrate described Terry as "a credible witness", the Fa concluded he was a liar...........are you saying if there was a civil burden of proof the magistrate wouldn't have said that???

Stop hiding behing the differences in the Burdens of Proof.............

I've always believed JT was wrongly charged here, now that he has decided not to appeal, i believe he is guilty........................ant man who feels he has been wrongly accused of something so serious would appeal..............

Again, why the personal insults, you are out of line there..........

The judge said in his verdict that he wasn't convinced by Terry's argument, but neither was the case strong enough against him to convict.

I don't think his decision not to appeal has any bearing on his guilt. He'll have been advised by his club to accept the decision and move on.

John I'm still not sure you understand the court vs civil thing.

Anyway overall I think it was pretty clear from the beginning JT was guilty;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0z_Y2dk-aQ

To make it clear, at the start JT is calling AF a f*cking knobhead (which he admits), then Cole blocks the camera. Then JT says the words 'f*cking black c*nt.'
We are meant to believe in the moment Cole blocked the camera's view from JT, Terry said the words 'did you call me?'
Total and absolute nonsense.

You'll either have to be a huge John Terry fan, or simply delusional to not accept that now.

John Cregan wrote:Top Hat,
Firstly, Why the personal insults???

The magistrate described Terry as "a credible witness", the Fa concluded he was a liar...........are you saying if there was a civil burden of proof the magistrate wouldn't have said that???

Stop hiding behing the differences in the Burdens of Proof.............

I've always believed JT was wrongly charged here, now that he has decided not to appeal, i believe he is guilty........................ant man who feels he has been wrongly accused of something so serious would appeal..............

Again, why the personal insults, you are out of line there..........

Ok, I'll retract the donut comment. But that's it. It's like talking to a child. As Crimey says you really don't seem understand the point, as demonstrated by accusing me of "hiding behind" differences that are actually fundamental to the differing verdicts.

I've not even strayed into the argument about him blatantly being guilty anyway, I just can't help but be flabbergasted by your ignorance.