You've Lost That Winning Feeling (Quins v Saracens)

Ouch. So I couldn't really bring myself to come on and post yesterday afternoon after the shambles that was served up by my team Harlequins on Sunday.

First of all a congratulations to Saracens, they'd done their homework on us that's for sure. You guys knew exactly what needed to be achieved to win the game and went out and did it. Well done!

Now back to Quins, I can only hope that such a poor display as yesterday will help to kick the boys back in to gear ready for Europe as the match to be honest was car crash viewing. We couldn't seem to do any of our basics well, key backline players were dropping simple passes. Others were slipping off easy tackles on players like Brits. In the pack our lineout was a shambles and we were well beaten on the deck.

To put it bluntly we were cack and we only have ourselves to blame. We put ourselves under too much pressure at times by trying to play a high tempo game without actually getting any momentum going first of all, making our runners easy targets for the Saracens gang tacklers, which would then slow down our ball even more, and then we'd try to run it and attack all over again.

The quality of rucking was so below standard it was a mess, before the match i'd mentioned that Wallace may be needed for this game as you can bet anything Saracens will be all over the ball at the rucks like a fat kid with cake. This is where we got our tactics wrong I think. Robshaw and Guest are both very good players but currently Robshaw has gone Ritchie Mccaw in that he fills in at 10 and plays the ball a lot, but doesn't work on the floor as much as a true fetcher does. Guest is a real talent ball in hand too but never really got going against the tough Saracens defence. Wallace could have helped to make a difference to the tempo of the game and to me should have been on the bench at least.

The Lineout was well targetted by Saracens, especially once Gray went off. I hope once Sky stop creaming themselves over golden boy Wentzle at Wasps they'll acknowledge that the most consistent and best line out operator is Borthwick, he might be crap around the park but he did a job on us in the lineout and without that we were halfway to being toothless in attack and dangerously exposed defencively. Buchanen for all his quality around the pitch and brilliant work in the scrum needs to practice his throwing a bit more (what is it with young hookers and poor throwing?).

Evans had an off day and while I won't blame him in anyway other then it had better only be a one off this does highlight our over-reliance on him. You could see that he was playing badly but no one else in that backline stepped up to take the pressure off him and due to poor man management this far the coaching team obviously had little faith in Clegg. How galling must it have been to be sat on the bench there for the full 80 knowing that you could make a difference and never getting a chance? Unless there's a culture change around the 10 shirt I can't see Clegg staying at the club.

11-14 in the backs looked like they'd never met before and a lot of that has to be put down to how well Saracens pressured us, just like we did to Tigers. It was so frustrating to watch the sloppy passing amongst the backs and the lack of passing from the centres, Hopper in particular was guilty of taking the ball up when it should have gone wide. Stegmann again had a very poor game against Saracens but it's difficult to blame him as he'd had so little game time before now. Monye was surprisingly quiet and really needed to help guide the rest of the backs a bit more. We desperately need Lowe back soon.

On the plus side our scrum went very well. The front row can all be pleased with a good days work and if they'd had a kicker on form they would have won us the game in the end. Marler, Gray/Buchanan and Johnston are the most improved frontrow in the prem and while they won't be happy they should at least have their heads high.

Care had another stirling game, he seems to have really flourished now that he's cut out the booze and taken on more responsibility.

Brown battled hard for the whole game and put in a brilliant try saver on Ashton, also good to see him get in the current media golden boys face a bit and let him know who's next for the Eng shirt. Cut some very good running lines too but you have to think that there wasn't enought subtlety in the mid field to give him enough space to shine.

All in all i'd give them 4 out of 10 for that performance. We all knew Quins would have to lose at some stage so now it's how we come back from this that defines us.

Do you really think Quins were that poor? I don't think you dropped the ball that much. You didn't let in any tries. I don't think it's all doom and gloom.

Remember you came up against the team that matches up very well against Quins.

Meanest defence, probably most uncompromising and frustating at the breakdown. One of the best lineouts too. Most other sides won't give you as torrid a time in so many areas. You only lost by 2 points too - if Evans had his kicking boots on..

I think you are being overly harsh on your side but I can't blame you. I am still impressed by how you bullied Leicester at WR.

Cheers Beshocked.

I think we were that poor, as you say you guys only had to defend well and we got ourselves in to trouble.

It's even more annoying as we played that well against Tigers and then slumped completely against you!

Still well done! Your youngsters in the backrow looked good. Not sure about Brits, he seems to get more 50/50 Carlos Spencer like every game! He's like Quade Cooper but can actually tackle.

While I was disappointed to lose, and Sarries were (scrum apart) worth their win for finding a game plan to contain Quins and sticking to it, I was actually fairly encouraged by the way the game went.

In the equivalent encounter last year (BG4), Sarries completely stopped the Quins gameplan; Quins had no answer and were never in the game. This time around, despite the offloading game being almost completely shut down, Quins were in it to the end and had multiple opportunities to win. It wouldn't have been stylish, but it would have been a win. Nick Evans won't have many days that bad with the boot. All of which bodes well for the return encounter.

It's also worth noting that I don't think either side played Mr Small particularly well - fans and players alike were bemused by his decisions and by the sound of things, so were the commentators.

Overall, a disappointment, but not a huge cause for concern.

Yappysnap as I said it's the match up. Saracens are generally very good at shutting Quins down. We stopped your offloading game. Leicester didn't.

Plus psychologically Quins have got the monkey off the back with Leicester IMO. With Saracens doubts still creep into the mind.

It was a much better performance from Saracens. The lineout was working like clockwork. The breakdown work was very good. The defence overall was good except for that soft try.

Scrum wasn't very good but it was Gill's first game. Stevens was poor as usual.

The attack obviously needs work but I had low expectations of tries against Quins' defence.

Should be more opportunities vs London Welsh.

As you said the reliance on the Nick Evans is a little worrying. It's the only thing I think you need to worry about though. One tight loss against a side you have found tough to beat isn't the end of the world. Plus you still have the recent WR win to savour.

I could talk about the ref but I won't.

Poorfour are you not a bit dissapointed that twice now we've hosted Saracens and twice they've won the same way in the same style of game? We really should have figured them out by half time and won the game but didn't.

We may win the away game but then again we may not. Losing at home in such a sloppy fashion shouldn't be just shrugged off.

I do wish Clegg had been brought on, I still remember him nailing kicks against Munster in the Amlin and we know he can play well. If he never gets any meaning full game time how can he get better?

Very true Poorfour - I was perplexed by a number of Small's decisions.
Especially from where I was sitting deep in the south stand.
Looking forward to the return fixture where hopefully Quins will have sorted out some of their problems.
Deserved victory from Sarries though.

Can't remember the last time Clegg had a good game vs Sarries. I think it was wise to leave him on the bench!

Poorfour remember Saracens got the interception try in BG4.

To beat Saracens you need to look at Clermont and Leinster who have been the two most effective. Generally beating us the breakdown is the best way.

Generate quick ball and gaps open up.

I don't think it's all that bad Yappy. Our defense was absolutley top notch, it was slightly greasy out there with the amount of rain that has been dropping down. I haven't seen the stats, but i don't think we dropped the ball anymore than Sarries did.

Nev had a crappy day at the office, but his first kick off the the mark seemed to affect the rest of his game; it happens - back to the field on Monday for training and shake it off. We didn't seem to 'flood the channel' as much as in previous rounds and started using a kick for territory more often than in previous game as opposed to runing it down the field, which does need more of a crunch at breakdown time to win back the ball; not our strong point so far this season!

Schalk brits is going to get a scary run in at some point, its what he gets paid for

We only needed one kick to go over and we would have had it, but ce la vie.

Smalls god awful officiating for both teams ruined the game for me more than anything else. So much stuff missed, and the absolute dither after Nev hit a post and stayed in play, didn't know what the rules were (play on) and re-started! Bad for both sides, bad for the fans. I could list a lot more instances.

beshocked wrote:Can't remember the last time Clegg had a good game vs Sarries. I think it was wise to leave him on the bench!

Poorfour remember Saracens got the interception try in BG4.

To beat Saracens you need to look at Clermont and Leinster who have been the two most effective. Generally beating us the breakdown is the best way.

Generate quick ball and gaps open up.

And that was why I was expecting Wallace to have got game time. I imagine he may get in to the team for the away fixture.

The pack as a whole seemed to not want to compete at the breakdown and I think that was down to the reffing, not just of this game but from a few of the other matches. We wrongly thought it'd be safer not to compete!

And I would disagree slightly with how Clermont and Leinster beat you guys (and everyone else) it's not just the work on the floor but the absolutely monsterous bench that they can field. Our subs on the other hand were a little too average for the occasion (to be fair though we have little control over that).

beshocked wrote:I could talk about the ref but I won't.

Missing the knock on before the try apart, Sarries fans have bugger all to moan about. Sarries should have had a couple of extra players sin-binned for repeated cynical play, and Stevens for just being a dumb pasty eater.

As to Quins, it was not a great performance - but it was not as bad as Yappy thinks. Quins perhaps should have used Robshaw as first receiver, distributor more as Sarries did not defend this tactic well, while Marler was for once anonymous in the loose. BUT with 15 points left in the locker and Farrwll suddenly hitting kicking form at least, on anothe day the same performance (bar kicking) could have seen a comfortable Quins win.


Sarries, despite winning, have a lot of questions to ask themselves. That is now 260 minutes without a try. With taleneted runners such as Tomkins, Ashton, Wyles and Goode is the tight game plan really the best use of their talents? Have the coaching team learnt anything form last seasons defeats in the knockout rouinds of the HC and AP? They have the attacking ability in the players to do really well, why can they not harness those talents?

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:I could talk about the ref but I won't.

Missing the knock on before the try apart, Sarries fans have bugger all to moan about. Sarries should have had a couple of extra players sin-binned for repeated cynical play, and Stevens for just being a dumb pasty eater.

As to Quins, it was not a great performance - but it was not as bad as Yappy thinks. Quins perhaps should have used Robshaw as first receiver, distributor more as Sarries did not defend this tactic well, while Marler was for once anonymous in the loose. BUT with 15 points left in the locker and Farrwll suddenly hitting kicking form at least, on anothe day the same performance (bar kicking) could have seen a comfortable Quins win.


Sarries, despite winning, have a lot of questions to ask themselves. That is now 260 minutes without a try. With taleneted runners such as Tomkins, Ashton, Wyles and Goode is the tight game plan really the best use of their talents? Have the coaching team learnt anything form last seasons defeats in the knockout rouinds of the HC and AP? They have the attacking ability in the players to do really well, why can they not harness those talents?

LondonTiger I would hardly expect you to take a neutral perspective.

7 points that should have not been isn't important is it? Oh and Saracens being inexplicably pushed back 50 metres by the ref when it was our penalty. Consequently Evans kicked 3 points because of this.

Also Kruis' harsh sin binning. When should we have had players sin binned? I know it suits you to say that.


This was a very good Quins defence. If they don't score tries vs London Welsh I will be worried.

beshocked wrote: Saracens being inexplicably pushed back 50 metres by the ref when it was our penalty. Consequently Evans kicked 3 points because of this.

Smalls officiating was so disgraceful i have no doubt both sides could quote infringements to each other all day!

That ruined the game more than taking a loss (from my POV), and i find it a bit on insult to both teams playing and the fans who paid to see such rubbish calls from him for 80 minutes non-stop.

Agree with that AlastairW

Btw I don't think Small was on Quin's side. Just giving some examples of things I could be aggrieved of but ultimately if we had lost I wouldn't have blamed the ref.

I would have blamed Stevens! As soon as he came on he was the penalty machine we all know.

The ref was just poor for both sides.

Beshocked,

The comment about Stevens was a joke after all him being sinbinned would have improved Sarries

I was trying to remember if Sarries had anyone shown a YC - Kruis was really a culmination of a number of offences I guess. As to cynical play, Brown and Borthwick were killing everything in sight.

You should know by now I am not anti-sarries (other than the people who were involved in sacking so many players and office staff when they took over) but I do expect them to play better than they do as they have so much talent that seems to lay idle.

Are you happy with the way the team plays?

Agreed Stevens is a shocker. Binning him would have made Saracens play better.

When to sin bin for repeated offences is a grey area IMO. Seems to really vary.

No I wouldn't say I have been happy in general. Particularly the Leicester and Sale games were dire.

Quins game was better. Not because Saracens won because they didn't the drop the ball as much. They showed more gut and spirit.

Of course I want to see them cut loose. Hopefully they will vs LondonWelsh.

yappysnap wrote:Poorfour are you not a bit dissapointed that twice now we've hosted Saracens and twice they've won the same way in the same style of game? We really should have figured them out by half time and won the game but didn't.

That was exactly my point - leave aside the missed kicks and Quins coped with Sarries far better than they did at BG4. Not brilliantly, but we had parity in areas where we previously got tonked. It takes a team time to develop a Plan B (it took England about 3 years in the run-up to 2003), so that's encouraging.