Ireland XV v Fiji

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 1:54 pm

This isn't really a selection thread (although it will go that way in time) but rather a question.

The official team listed to play is "Ireland XV". It isn't Ireland. It isn't the Wolfounds. It isn't Ireland A. See fixture list - http://www.irishrugby.ie/rugby/index.php

It seems to me that this is actually a game for the senior team rather than the A team and the reason it says Ireland XV is to avoid the contractual obligations to play all Ireland games in Lansdowne Road?

Anyone shed any light on it.

by **Notch** Mon 01 Oct 2012, 1:56 pm

Yeah, think you're right. Think it's also a case of not awarding full caps for the match- and not risking a drop in ranking points if we lose.

It's a test match, but it's not an official test match. I think thats disappointing really, considering in previous years we've seen caps awarded for experimental sides against the Pacific Islanders, Canada etc.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Oct 2012, 2:27 pm

Did anyone else see a short piece in the Sunday Times yesterday which reported O'Driscoll was looking for clarification on Ireland's attacking play? He gave the impression that he wasn't sure which coach was in overall charge of their attacking strategy.

It isn't a good sign if the players are unsure in this regard. And it also isn't a good sign that the captain is publicly questioning the coaching team. This isn't long after Geordan Murphy expressed grave concerns about Ireland's attack in his book.

I can't give a link because you have to pay to access the Sunday Times website.

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 2:34 pm

Feckless, I have heard through the grapevine that O'Driscoll and Kidney hard "words" in NZ on this subject.

I think it will get worse before it gets better.

by **rodders** Mon 01 Oct 2012, 2:54 pm

O'Driscoll has gone above his station here. His job is to play. Deccies job is to...hmm..... what's Deccies job again? Headscratch

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:02 pm

rodders wrote:O'Driscoll has gone above his station here. His job is to play. Deccies job is to...hmm..... what's Deccies job again?

Be vewy vewy quiet. I'm hunting wabbits!

Spoiler:

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:03 pm

If O'Driscoll and Kidney had words in private that's fine. It shouldn't be in the papers though. The article actually didn't really make it clear if O'Driscoll had publicly came out and said this. Or if the journalist had just heard about this happening and was reporting it.

I've always believed that the players job is to do what he's told by the coaches. If the coaches are doing a bad job, that's an issue for his employers to deal with, not the players. The whole player power thing always tends to end badly.

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:04 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:The whole player power thing always tends to end badly.

I think it worked well for England in 2007 RWC and France in the 2011 RWC.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:11 pm

red_stag wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:The whole player power thing always tends to end badly.

I think it worked well for England in 2007 RWC and France in the 2011 RWC.

A recipe for certain loss in a final?

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:13 pm

Certain improvement I would say.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:14 pm

Ha. I guess you're right there stag. They did improve.

Maybe because a RWC is the end of a 4 year cycle and a poor coach will probably leave at the end of it, the players have nothing to lose and it's the best time to revolt.

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:15 pm

How much easier would our lives be if we had just lost to Australia and then South Africa in the RWC.

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Oct 2012, 3:26 pm

What difference would that have made? Kidney had a two year contract signed before the RWC started.

Anyway, as each new season starts I try to be optimistic. Maybe Deccie and BOD had words and things have been sorted out and Ireland will have a more coherent game plan in the AI's.

All four provinces seem to be playing a very attacking game now that is at odds with what Kidney/Smal/Kiss have been trying for the last 4 years. Maybe there'll be a change of direction. Surely they know we need one to turn things around so they can keep their jobs. We lost our last game sixty bleedin' nil.

by **Notch** Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:00 pm

At this stage, player power couldn't do worse in terms of attack!

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:06 pm

At this stage Gary Player or John Player Blue couldn't do worse in attack!

by clivemcl Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:11 pm

Hands up if you were hoping it was a selection thread?

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:18 pm

Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

double post

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:Did anyone else see a short piece in the Sunday Times yesterday which reported O'Driscoll was looking for clarification on Ireland's attacking play? He gave the impression that he wasn't sure which coach was in overall charge of their attacking strategy.

It isn't a good sign if the players are unsure in this regard. And it also isn't a good sign that the captain is publicly questioning the coaching team. This isn't long after Geordan Murphy expressed grave concerns about Ireland's attack in his book.

I can't give a link because you have to pay to access the Sunday Times website.

Would this be what you are referring to? Nothing in it - could be a dig at the IRFU for not replacing Gaffney if you read the last line below.

And eyebrows were arched last season when, rather than replace backs coach Alan Gaffney, the job was simply added to the portfolio of existing defence coach Les Kiss.

O'Driscoll doesn't deny there have been issues.

"We've spoken about this since New Zealand," he says, "and I think we just need to get clarity on who the point of reference is for our attacking game. In New Zealand, I think we could just have gotten our detail a little bit better.

"We've got to look at making sure that everyone is getting the same message. But, when you have Declan overseeing things, Les doing the backs, Gert (Smal) doing the forwards and Les also doing defence and you want to ask a particular question about an area of general attack, there's a number of different people that you could go to there.

"So it's making sure that we're all -- coaches and players -- collectively singing off the same hymn sheet.

"And even then, there's a need to use the knowledge of someone like Mervyn Murphy who, from the video analysis point of view, has seen more rugby than anyone. He has huge knowledge and you have to try to delve into that too and use it.

"One thing I've learnt is that you can get away with certain things at provincial level. But your detail has to be very, very accurate at international level. Otherwise you get shown up."

And the absence of a scrum coach? O'Driscoll points to the fact that Leinster's Greg Feek has been working with the Irish team for maybe the past 18 months and adds, "You know, our scrum didn't go half bad down in New Zealand."

He concedes: "I can't really concern myself personally with the scrum issues but if there was no backs coach or no one specific to a part of my game that I needed to get right, I'd be asking questions.

"But I'm sure the powers that be know who's going to come in and do that role on a full-time basis."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/players-must-put-ireland-before-clubs-says-brian-odriscoll-3239674.html

by Feckless Rogue Mon 01 Oct 2012, 5:12 pm

That's pretty much the same as the Sunday Times Sin. I wonder will the IRFU try and take Feek from Leinster full time. They haven't hired anyone for their overall scrum guru role they advertised ages ago either.

I don't like the fact that Kiss is now our attack coach and defence coach. You rightly pointed out that Schmidt covers more than one coaching role at Leinster. So you don't necessarily need a specific coach for each aspect of the game. But just from watching Ireland, I think we could do with a new backs coach.

by clivemcl Mon 01 Oct 2012, 5:25 pm

red_stag wrote:Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

Downey? Do you reckon he has outperformed the likes of Luke Marshall so far this season? And bearing in mind one is ten years younger...

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 5:30 pm

clivemcl wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

Downey? Do you reckon he has outperformed the likes of Luke Marshall so far this season? And bearing in mind one is ten years younger...

I couldnt mind which of them really Clive. I dont buy into this whole "Oh we have to play the younger guy" argument. However Luke Marshall is playing well enough. I wouldnt mind if he was there in the slightest. I think Downey has equally done extremely well and should not be discriminated against due to age. Downey provides experience and physicality outside Jackson and has a working relationship with Earls.

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:15 pm

clivemcl wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

Downey? Do you reckon he has outperformed the likes of Luke Marshall so far this season? And bearing in mind one is ten years younger...

What is the reasoning behind starting Cave at 12 against Cardiff if Marshall is Paddy Wallace's heir apparent? And do you think Marshall will be starting/benching for the Heineken Cup games coming up?

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:18 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:That's pretty much the same as the Sunday Times Sin. I wonder will the IRFU try and take Feek from Leinster full time. They haven't hired anyone for their overall scrum guru role they advertised ages ago either.

I don't like the fact that Kiss is now our attack coach and defence coach. You rightly pointed out that Schmidt covers more than one coaching role at Leinster. So you don't necessarily need a specific coach for each aspect of the game. But just from watching Ireland, I think we could do with a new backs coach.

I think the overall scrum guru needs to come up with a strategy for Irish rugby which might put a few off who thought it was a hands-on role.

I wonder what Ollie le Roux is doing now?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:38 pm

Never heard of experiminting Sin? Don't twist Cave getting one game at 12 into anything else. Marshall could very well start in the HEC games, if he can continue with his current form. I am almost certain he will at least bench.

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:51 pm

Rory, I have heard about experimentation (Munster had Laulala & Earls at 12 & 13 at the weekend Smile

) . I'm not trying to twist anything. I thought it was an interesting selection bearing in mind I can't recall Cave ever playing there before. I didn't see the Ulster game though I read that Cave only got about 10 minutes there anyway which isn't long enough to assess how he did there.

What do you think of Cave at 12? (You know my opinion on Cave is that he doesn't have the pace to be an international 13).

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:55 pm

He was only at 12 for about 10 minutes before Allen had to go off, and he then switched back to 13. Not long enough to make any kind of judgement. I think he and Marshall could make a very good centre partnership. Though as you say, it may be lacking in pace. We will see. Nonu and Smith aren't exactly speedsters. Whistle

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 01 Oct 2012, 6:56 pm

My view is that Cave is a specialist 13, and that he should remain there.

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

Nonu isn't exactly slow. Smith only looks relatively slow because he is surrounded by speedsters.

by valjester Mon 01 Oct 2012, 7:24 pm

red_stag wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
red_stag wrote:Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

Downey? Do you reckon he has outperformed the likes of Luke Marshall so far this season? And bearing in mind one is ten years younger...

I couldnt mind which of them really Clive. I dont buy into this whole "Oh we have to play the younger guy" argument. However Luke Marshall is playing well enough. I wouldnt mind if he was there in the slightest. I think Downey has equally done extremely well and should not be discriminated against due to age. Downey provides experience and physicality outside Jackson and has a working relationship with Earls.

Downey is the definition of a journey man. He isn't going to be involved with Ireland long term so therefore you pick the younger player. Of course you only pick the younger players if he is in at least as good form, and I think Marshall has been the equal of Downey this season, especially considering there was nothing to pick between them in Ravenhill.

Keatley is not a full back in any shape or form. I'd probably put TOH, or Gilroy, there ahead of him, they might not end up as full backs but they will do a better job than Keatley there.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 01 Oct 2012, 7:52 pm

Sin é wrote:Nonu isn't exactly slow. Smith only looks relatively slow because he is surrounded by speedsters.

But neither is Cave. None of the players mentioned are slow. They're just not known for their pace.

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 8:11 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Sin é wrote:Nonu isn't exactly slow. Smith only looks relatively slow because he is surrounded by speedsters.

But neither is Cave. None of the players mentioned are slow. They're just not known for their pace.

They may not be known for their pace, but they have it. Worth rewatching Smith's try against Ireland last June - Kearney couldn't get near him. Nonu is an inside centre anyway.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 01 Oct 2012, 8:33 pm

Yeah, and so does Cave. Who is also not known for his pace, but he has it.

by Sin é Mon 01 Oct 2012, 8:56 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, and so does Cave. Who is also not known for his pace, but he has it.

I've seen him being left for dust by Fergus McFadden. BOD has slowed down, but he still has great acceleration. When I saw him being tried at 12 by Ulster, I thought that was the one reason why he might be worth a look at there.

by red_stag Mon 01 Oct 2012, 9:23 pm

valjester wrote:
Keatley is not a full back in any shape or form. I'd probably put TOH, or Gilroy, there ahead of him, they might not end up as full backs but they will do a better job than Keatley there.

Based on what? A few appearances he had there for Connacht as a nipper. I think he has looked well there against both Ulster and Dragons. I expect we are likely to see him feature there against Leinster and in the Heineken Cup.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Mon 01 Oct 2012, 10:52 pm

red_stag wrote:Will we go for the selection thread so?

01 Tom Court
02 Sean Cronin
03 Declan Fitzpatrick
04 Devin Toner
05 Dan Tuohy
06 Dave O'Callaghan
07 Chris Henry
08 Peter O'Mahony
09 Paul Marshall
10 Paddy Jackson
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Keith Earls
14 Craig Gilroy
15 Ian Keatley

Good team stag bits I'd change myself.

1. Court
2. Strauss
3. Fitzpatrick
4. Tuohy
5. Toner
6. McLaughlin
7. Henry
8. O'Mahony
9. Marshall
10. Jackson
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Cave
14. Gilroy
15. Earls

I think getting Strauss in to the team could be important if he is ever going to play for Ireland which I assume d irfu want.

Think pom and mcl are in a straight shoot out to get a spot in the starting team without sob there that's why I'd include the pair.

I'd put in Marshall and cave as I think Marshall will be Irish 12 one day soon (sooner d better) and with Kearney out earls may need all d time available to play 15.

I'd hope the likes of hagan, sherry, Henderson, madigan, o'dea would be on the bench

by **profitius** Tue 02 Oct 2012, 4:31 pm

I'd go with a more experimental lineup...

1 Kilcoyne
2 Sherry
3 Fitzpatrick
4 Tuohy
5 Henderson
6 Dave O'Callaghan
7 Dougal
8 Muldoon

9 Paul Marshall
10 Madigan
11 O'Dea
12 Downey
13 Griffin
14 Conway
15 Gilroy

McSharry, Luke Marshall, O'Halloran,
Toner, Stevenson, Dom Ryan, Paddy Butler,
Buckley (Connacht prop), Loughney, Hagan,

Its looks very Munstercentric but I didn't see too much of the other provinces.

by Sin é Tue 02 Oct 2012, 5:30 pm

My team would depend a lot on how we did against SA the week before, but if needing the win against Argentina, I would not be too experimental against Figi as there will also probably be a few senior coming back from extended injury periods (Paul O'Connell) or who maybe first choice club, but 2nd choice country (Healy & Court, Boss/Reddan for example) who may be needed to play against Argentina.

I'd also bear in mind that this game is in Limerick and you would want to stimulate interest with some biggish names and local players as well if you want to sell tickets. If you look at the last game against Fiji in the RDS, 9-15 with the exception of Keith Earls were Leinster players.

The way I think it will look at the moment is:

1 Court (needs to be up to speed for Argentinian game)
2 Cronin ditto
3 Fitzpatrick ditto
4 Tuohy
5 POC - needs gametime after been out for nearly a year.
6 DOC II
7 Henry
8 POM
9 Reddan
10 Madigan
11 Gilroy
12 Marshall
13 Cave
14 Trimble
15 Kearney (hasn't really had any gametime this year so far).

I doubt if you will see Paddy Jackson/Marshall in the squad as there are league games just prior to and towards the end of the AIs and they don't have much depth in these areas to deal with it.

by **rodders** Tue 02 Oct 2012, 6:22 pm

I think Cronin has been pretty poor so far this year. I wouldn't mind seeing Sherry get a run. Varley was going well.....

by valjester Tue 02 Oct 2012, 7:55 pm

rodders wrote:I think Cronin has been pretty poor so far this year. I wouldn't mind seeing Sherry get a run. Varley was going well.....

Sherry has been very disappointing this year, I was expecting a lot more from him.

by red_stag Wed 03 Oct 2012, 9:16 am

valjester wrote:
rodders wrote:I think Cronin has been pretty poor so far this year. I wouldn't mind seeing Sherry get a run. Varley was going well.....

Sherry has been very disappointing this year, I was expecting a lot more from him.

Agree in full. Varley has arguably been the better player.

by **rodders** Wed 03 Oct 2012, 9:32 am

Is Brady the form Hooker in Ireland right now?

by red_stag Wed 03 Oct 2012, 9:34 am

rodders wrote:Is Brady the form Hooker in Ireland right now?

He probably is to be fair.

by **rodders** Wed 03 Oct 2012, 9:42 am

Which is great for Brady but he's a bit ...er... long in the tooth for International rugby.

Varley was going well but I presume will face a ban now for his red card.

Cronin has been very poor, so we are very reliant on Best hitting the ground running and staying fit.

Whats up with Strauss? Is he fit?

I think Sherry has been ok actually. Munsters lineout has been decent and he's been decent in the loose.

by sean.c Wed 03 Oct 2012, 9:51 am

rodders wrote: Whats up with Strauss? Is he fit?

Strauss is just back this weekend AFAIK. He's been out for a while with a nasty concussion he picked up in the Treviso game.

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