Shanghai Thread

by The Special Juan Mon Oct 08, 2012 12:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Draw here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Shanghai_Rolex_Masters_%E2%80%93_Singles

Is it just me or is the court painfully slow?

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:28 pm

Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:29 pm

Murray marginal favourite vs Djoko in the final.

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:29 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:If that is the case, that's frankly pathetic.

Well, I doubt it is literally just to get to 300, but I would not be surprised if the season has taken its toll on him and he is not willing to kill himself in these matches.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:30 pm

33 UEs from Fed - a poor performance. Just one of those days when you don't see the ball well, I guess.

Still, apparently I must be a 'blinded Briton'. 'Bad for the rest of the world' - joke picard

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:31 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!

I didn't realise they were in Shanghai, let alone played tennis.

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:31 pm

bogbrush wrote:Hang on, I said that before the quarters, not during this match.

Very true, would not count nearly so much if it was during or after the match.

by **laverfan** Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:32 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Worst player wins.

Good for the British media and blinded Britannia, bad for rest of the world. Shanghai final will have its lowest interest EVER.

... Is Shanghai for pvssies too, JM? Like RG? Federer has never won Shanghai, so that must be it. Glad to be enlightened. zen

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:32 pm

summerblues wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:If that is the case, that's frankly pathetic.
Well, I doubt it is literally just to get to 300, but I would not be surprised if the season has taken its toll on him and he is not willing to kill himself in these matches.

Well if the season has taken it's toll on him, that's fair enough.
Apologies, I thought you were suggesting he was just tanking because he has already reached 300 weeks.

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:33 pm

JuliusHMarx wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!

I didn't realise they were in Shanghai, let alone played tennis.

It's in Britain! And boxing!

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:34 pm

Andy played well, some fantastic returning and really aggressive throughout. Does anyone know what time the final is played tomorrow?

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:35 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:
JuliusHMarx wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!

I didn't realise they were in Shanghai, let alone played tennis.
It's in Britain! And boxing!

Yes, I know

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:36 pm

laverfan wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:Worst player wins.

Good for the British media and blinded Britannia, bad for rest of the world. Shanghai final will have its lowest interest EVER.

... Is Shanghai for pvssies too, JM? Like RG? Federer has never won Shanghai, so that must be it. Glad to be enlightened.

Shanghai is full of bugs. You can tell Federer really needed to use the bathroom thanks to the overall bad hygiene in that city.

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:36 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:I thought you were suggesting he was just tanking because he has already reached 300 weeks.

No, not tanking, just unwilling/unable to force himself to try for more. If this had been a Wimbledon final I expect he would have dug in deeper.

But I could be wrong there too, maybe he did try as hard as he could, but it was just not to be today.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:37 pm

It Must Be Love wrote:Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!

this* evening.

tomato

by Danny_1982 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:38 pm

Murray executed his gameplan very well. He served well, returned amazingly well. As usual when the top 4 meet, the guy who executes slightly better wins.

Next time Fed might execute better. I don't think there needs to be much more investigation than that. 2 great players, but Murray just seems that bit more confident at the moment.

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:40 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
It Must Be Love wrote:Anyone else exctied for Audley Harrison vs Pirce today evening!
this* evening.

Nah I think 'today evening' works fine.

Either way, expecting A-Force to KO him in the 3rd!

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:41 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:Murray executed his gameplan very well. He served well, returned amazingly well. As usual when the top 4 meet, the guy who executes slightly better wins.

Next time Fed might execute better. I don't think there needs to be much more investigation than that. 2 great players, but Murray just seems that bit more confident at the moment.

Yep, that analysis is pretty much spot on thumbsup

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:44 pm

Considering Federer served awful and barely got any free points, Murray played at his best and made hardly no unforced errors, winning 8 games is a surprise.

by Calder106 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:49 pm

bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Danny_1982 wrote:But If someone asked me what Federer's gameplan was, I'm not sure I'd know how to answer.

Maybe like this?

bogbrush wrote:I think he only came here for 300.
Hang on, I said that before the quarters, not during this match.

Must have been a delay on your post or my computer has gone weird. As it shows up at 7.29 this morning. I thought the quarters were played yesterday.

by The Special Juan Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Well done Mr Murray. Better player won on the day.

As for my tip of a Berdych v Federer final, well that's just Laugh

by bogbrush Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:56 pm

Calder106 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:
summerblues wrote:
Danny_1982 wrote:But If someone asked me what Federer's gameplan was, I'm not sure I'd know how to answer.

Maybe like this?

bogbrush wrote:I think he only came here for 300.
Hang on, I said that before the quarters, not during this match.

Must have been a delay on your post or my computer has gone weird. As it shows up at 7.29 this morning. I thought the quarters were played yesterday.

Must be my mistake, I wrote something very similar the other day.

Doesn't change the substance that it was written in advance of this match.

by Danny_1982 Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:58 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Considering Federer served awful and barely got any free points, Murray played at his best and made hardly no unforced errors, winning 8 games is a surprise.

Well, although he didn't play his best Federer is not the greatest ever for a lack of fight. He fought off a lot of break points, as you'd expect from a great champion.

It's that fight that stopped the score line being more emphatic.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:14 pm

I never saw the match today so can't truthfully judge. However, why are some of Fed's fans such bitter losers? Such verbal gonorrhea such as that Fed wasn't bothered after knowing he'd secured No.1 spot. What rot. Federer plays to win every game especially against his closest rivals and he won't want to retire with a losing head-to-head against them and so now he trails Murray 10-8. Also according to one Fed fanatic, Federer played awful and won eight games whilst Murray was playing at his ultimate best. Wake up mate and look at the stats. Do believe Andy's serve stats were low (lower than Fed's for the match) by his standards so can presume his serve wasn't at his best at a start. Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:17 pm

I know Murrays serve stats were not amazing, infact the match had more to do with how poor Federers serves were, how flat his backhand was again, how he couldn't be aggressive enough. Federer gifted the game to the Scot.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:21 pm

So as I said both didn't play at their best so negates the BS you posted earlier that Murray was at his best. Thanks for clearing that up JM sporting to admit you were wrong with that comment.

by time please Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:31 pm

I was half watching while pretending to work - Murray's returns were just awesome and put Fed's serve under a lot of pressure.

It should be an interesting final between Djoker and Murray.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:31 pm

My point being, Murray 'at his best' is when his defensive game is very powerful, he has never been the most secure server. With returning shots like this, I don't see Djokovic being very hard to beat.

by Danny_1982 Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:34 pm

Still not enough credit given to Murray here though. His first serve percentage was only just above 50 so he can do better, but he won 87% behind it.

One area of Murrays game that was exceptional was his returning. Off both wings. Some incredible shots tying Federer up in knots. It was that brolliant returning that forced Federer's serve to crack, not an 'off day' as alluded to above.

If Novak plays better than Murray tomorrow and wins, I'll be the first to say 'too good, better player won'. But I won't be taking anything away from his victory by suggesting it was gift wrapped, lack of effort or anything to deliberately dilute the meaning if the victory.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:41 pm

Spot on Danny. Sadly, it always seems like some Fed fans who can't accept defeat in a sporting manner. Hell I was hurting like mad after the Wimbledon Final but still had the nuts to come out and give full unequivocal credit to the victor - Roger Federer.

by time please Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:42 pm

Some of the returns were blistering against some good serves from Fed. Murray was just so quick to pick everything up and covered the court brilliantly.

Hard to call a winner for tomorrow on form so far.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:43 pm

Danny, Federer clearly plays as great as he did in 2006, doesn't he? His attacking game was immense. No wait, it was the opposite. The backhand was great too, super fast. Well played Federer, top of your game but Murray is too good for you. picard

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:45 pm

Cilic v Murray would have been a better match, at least the lanky Croat can serve well more than 30% of the time!

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:49 pm

There was no tactics behind Feds game at all, looked like a junior, he is really slow to react to quick returns.

by Danny_1982 Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:54 pm

What??? What has 2006 got to do with it? Are all defeats since null and void because its not 2006 anymore? You're not making sense.

My only point is this, he won because he played better. Roger is the most decorated player in the history of tennis, so why is it so difficult to just admit someone played better today, without attempting to dilute the win?

by time please Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:54 pm

Federer did look a little lost (apart from one sublime point in the 1st) and without answers today to a very strong opponent. Murray's serving is becoming a real strength rather than a liability.

In any event, that is what sport is all about, isn't it? The best on the day.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:55 pm

Or perhaps JM you do Murray's return of service quality a major disservice. I suggest you check out his stats and where he stands in the all-time list of service returns. On second thoughts - better not you may not like what you find.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:59 pm

Fed's serving wasn't bad today, but not great. He seemed to persist in serving to places where Murray was hitting good returns. Those 3 DFs in a row were indicative that Fed was struggling to find a service rhythm.
But Fed's main problem today was a lack of timing - he just didn't seem to be seeing the ball well or reacting quickly enough. Some of his returns off Andy's 2nd serve were awful.
33 UE's in 2 games just about sums it up.

by CaledonianCraig Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:04 pm

With all due respects JHM - with stats like that then he never deserved to win yet JM declared earlier that the worst player won. Sorry but can't figure that one out. Also how many matches has Murray lost against Federer playing below his best - plenty I bet but it doesn't negate anything does it. As soon as both players walk onto a court for a tennis match it is a clean slate and may the best man win and today that was Murray. Not saying either was at their best unlike others who felt Murray was a bursting a gut playing at full pelt whilst Fed nonchalantly breezed around without a care in the world about the result yet still picked up eight games playing rubbish.

by Josiah Maiestas Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Danny_1982 wrote:What??? What has 2006 got to do with it? Are all defeats since null and void because its not 2006 anymore? You're not making sense.

My only point is this, he won because he played better. Roger is the most decorated player in the history of tennis, so why is it so difficult to just admit someone played better today, without attempting to dilute the win?

The point is Murray is not beating the real Federer, he's beating the worn out, father of twins Federer. As I also said, Murray was returning the ball well and hardly made an error, so of course he was better lol.

by lags72 Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:08 pm

Could neither watch nor follow live scores but by all reports Murray's overall performance was very effective indeed even if perhaps not (as some here have said) at his very best. Certainly seems like he returned very well and I believe pegged back Fed more than once after he had taken 40-0 leads.

Some of Fed's match stats look very ropey indeed, notably points won on 2nd serve at just 36% (earlier rounds : 69, 66, 55) ; and also 1st return points won of just 13% (earlier rounds : 30, 36, 46). But of course the better quality your opponent, the more you can come under pressure. And 3 successive DF's ....? has he EVER done that before ?

It's natural that Federer defeats will be a more common feature with each passing month/year, but there is no shame whatever in losing to the current US Champion and no. 3 in the world.

I don't go with the he was just happy to make 300 theories. This was a Masters after all, and I'm pretty sure he was keen to at least make the Final. In many ways, SF losses - in sport generally, not just tennis - can be harder to swallow than finishing R/U. But equally, I believe he has been around for so long now and experienced so many highs & lows (treat these two imposters just the same as per Kipling quoted at Wimbledon) that within just a day or so he will count it as a bad day at the office, and focus on what remains of the season, with three successive title defences now awaiting.

Meanwhile many congrats to Andy on a really good win clap

...and having picked Djoko yesterday for the trophy I'm now seeing it as a much closer call, but still with a very slight edge to Novak.

by **JuliusHMarx** Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:With all due respects JHM - with stats like that then he never deserved to win yet JM declared earlier that the worst player won. Sorry but can't figure that one out.

You're right, JM's statement doesn't make sense in the actual context of the match. Perhaps we should read his post as "the player whose style of play/personality I don't like won" - that's how I look at it anyway.

by Calder106 Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:14 pm

time please wrote:Federer did look a little lost (apart from one sublime point in the 1st) and without answers today to a very strong opponent. Murray's serving is becoming a real strength rather than a liability.

In any event, that is what sport is all about, isn't it? The best on the day.

Spot on TP. Raonic was the best player on the day last week against Murray and won deservedly. Murray was the best player on the day today against Federer and won deservedly. Unless something really strange happens the best player on the day between Djokovic and Murray will win.

by User 774433 Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:19 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:Danny, Federer clearly plays as great as he did in 2006, doesn't he? His attacking game was immense. No wait, it was the opposite. The backhand was great too, super fast. Well played Federer, top of your game but Murray is too good for you.

Yeah, I agree, it's not as if Murray would have any chance if they played in 2006;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhuGGzB39nk

by Henman Bill Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:00 pm

I disagree with the comment in the original article that the courts in Shanghai are slow, they look fast to me.

by The Special Juan Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:05 pm

Henman Bill wrote:I disagree with the comment in the original article that the courts in Shanghai are slow, they look fast to me.

The first day I saw the court this year it looked really, really slow but something's happened because it's quicker now. Is there a difference in speeds between the 2 show courts as I'm not sure which court I was watching at the time. I suppose it could have been Grandstand or whatever it's called.

by The Special Juan Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:10 pm

On Federer's serve:

He didn't have a good day on it at all (even in the 1st game it was poor) but during the match Murray punished it badly and Federer couldn't get anything going with it at all. It's a great serve when it's working as it's so accurate but when it's misfiring it's one of the worst serves compared to the top guys. It doesn't have the speed of a Murray, Berdych or Tsonga serve and when there's no accuracy it just sits up saying "Hit me!!"

Anyway, as I said, the better man won on the day.

by Henman Bill Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:11 pm

Some ramifications of today's result:
1. Federer fails to tie head to head with Murray; Murray now leads 10-8.
2. Federer fails to take masters series wins record.
3. Murray has won 5 sets straight against Federer.
4. Murray moves to 4 wins in a row against big-4 opponents. (2 Federer, 2 Djokovic, I don't think he has played Nadal this season.)
5. Djokovic will extend his 1,500 lead in the race to year end no 1 to nearer 2,000, which makes him clear favourite.

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:11 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

Well obviously Andy was the better player today. No denying that. Some of his returns were just astonishing and he played the right tactics too - nice and aggressive without taking silly risks.

But there is no huge harm in speculating whether or not Fed was trying his absolute hardest today. That is one of the things a forum is for - different people having different views and doing a bit of back-an-forth about them.

by summerblues Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:25 pm

Henman Bill wrote:5. Djokovic will extend his 1,500 lead in the race to year end no 1 to nearer 2,000, which makes him clear favourite.

To me this is the big one. If Fed had won the title here I thought he still had a fighting chance (though a relative long shot even then) to hold on to #1 ranking at YE. Now it strikes me as next to impossible.

Also Andy is collecting points that - unless he suffers a bad dip in form - should give him a good chance to fight for the #1 spot next spring. It would not surprise me if Andy was going to the clay court season with a chance to claim #1 ranking, and if he could do it even without being better than either Nole or Rafa on clay - he might just need a reasonable improvement on this year's results.

by lags72 Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:26 pm

Well-made point summerblues (ie 7.11pm)

I often find myself diametrically opposed to views expressed here but see little merit in denigrating a poster merely for expressing what appears to be a rational, albeit quite different, opinion. Otherwise you might as well just talk to yourself all day and that way there will (one assumes .... Erm

) always be a mood of consensus.

Mind you I did say 'rational.' Some posts fall very much into the category of wummery and/or just plain logic-defying nonsense. But far, far less here on v2 than the old 606.

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